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RE: Eclipsed dragonlord weapons no longer regenning Sp/MP

 
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10/14/2021 11:30:44   
Cray
Lorekeeper

 

@SapphireCatalyst2021, please refer to the outline of constructive criticism laid out in the board rules, as well as the warning against flaming in the general rules. To reduce to absurdity any counter-criticism based on balance standards and openly poison the well for any argument that doesn't concede your point runs afoul of both rules. Without that transparent bad faith argument, the thorough misrepresentation of the criticism levied by others might have been construed as a simple misunderstanding, but to stoop to insults makes it transparently a strawman attack.

I'll humor the presented notions for the sake of salvaging this part of the discussion, but please argue in good faith from this point onwards.

The mathematical standards certainly can be changed, yes. However, the reason the ripple effect through dependencies and other interactions is consistently pointed out is twofold.

First is the workload, as you pointed out yourself, but the implications go well beyond the time it would take to go through every additional task generated through this effect. The hastier or more involved any given theoretical change is, the more of its work would exceed the scope of a quick balance patch or even a weekly release, adding to the backlog and resulting in disjointed artefacts of an old standard. In the case being discussed, this wouldn't only be outdated items like armors with older standard leans, but everything dependent on an outdated concept of the core balance.

Second is that as the standards themselves aren't arbitrary, it's not just any proposed change to the standards that must serve the purpose of ensuring balance, but every one of these mentioned ramifications. This can be absurdly tricky to navigate, something we are constantly and painfully aware of. Particularly when fun is equally important, and what constitutes fun is subject to change as the inevitable power creep of an RPG of this longevity gradually leaves once highly favored items or even styles behind.




One point I often bring up, particularly in regards to werepyre hybrid logic versus rewarding traditional hybridization without enforcing it, is that the problems with of build identity are heavily dependent on the future stat revamp to find a solution. Consequently, any patchwork measure to improve distinction - or even just the feeling thereof - in the intervening time runs the risk of increasing the workload of said revamp with every subsequent bit of content balanced around said measure... Or even of having to be undone entirely when the revamp comes around. To arbitrarily add a stat association to SP or SP regeneration would be an example of both.

Lastly, just as a general caution rather than apropos of anything in prior posts: Even with build identity being in a nebulous state right now, we must be careful not to judge what identities are somewhat distinct (...Sorry, Rangers, we'll rescue you in time) by their ability to perform in the niche of others.
Post #: 26
10/14/2021 11:31:11   
SapphireCatalyst2021
Member
 

I'm all for sticking with the models. Im not suggesting blowing anything up and going with new models. Legendary in the last line on his last post said balance standards are perfect as they are. They might be very good, but common sense says they can't be perfect. How many items exist that break the model? I'm not even talking builds... There are many. Example- Luck has 10% rate for lucky strike. The model includes this. But if you regularly cast arms of dragonguard, especially with celerity from shadowfeeder, there's no way the model gets maintained. I'm not advocating for change here, I'm simply pointing out you can break the model if you decide not to use the same bland equipment with little effects of yesteryear.

The game has always changed, and adapted to things. I have no doubts that it will continue to do that as well. So when someone makes a suggestion about a specific topic and certain people swoop in and wag the finger and say nope, that breaks *current* standards, all one can do is roll your eyes and realize it's just a waste of time to express an opinion. It honestly is another form of cancel culture to a small extent.


I do agree that once all the Sp-related adjustments are completed we will have a better idea of the direction of the game, and it will be a good thing long term. I'm on board with that. But I also believe the SP change specific to dragonlord was too harsh. As mentioned, more SP regen in exchange for a damage reduction cost would be much better than how it currently sits. And I usually don't play having STR trained, so this isnt about MY character whatsoever.

I feel like SP reliant players who probably grew a sense of entitlement with the dragonlord items are now scrambling to figure things out. While they're going to have to get used to it, you can't discount the idea that mage variants (I'll always be a mage variant, and this is one reason why) are better than warrior variants. Having a full MP bar and SP bar expands resources, and with warriors now less reliably having SP, something they went over a year used to, now what?

You can't reliably tell me these two builds/playstyles are on equal footing:
Beastwarrior
BeastMage

The mage has two ways to play. Cast spells and use guests, using guests for less turns. Or just use guests, longer. And MP heal is not only stronger (1.5 vs 1.125), but more plentiful. Just potions alone.

Having access to MP for upkeeps (guests/miscs) and saving SP for other things already expands it's versaility far beyond the beast warrior who now cant heal SP the same.

There is no sound argument on the planet that would cause me to change my mind on that. And I don't even have the "math" to say otherwise. Even if it did show otherwise (I'd be shocked if it showed beastwarrior vastly outclassing beastmage) It still doesn't account for real life gameplay with real items, that do and will break models.

So, IMO, warriors need a small amount of SP help.


edit-> Posted this, then saw Cray's post...reading through it. I apologize for things said. Wasn't attempting to flame, but rereading it I see it.

At the end of the day, I fully understand the time constraints at certain change ideas. And if that argument is made, and fully fleshed out with examples, I would have no issue with that point of view. But when people swoop in and copy-paste NO that breaks standards, and leave it there, I find it creates a situation in which why participate here? Everyone who comments wants whats best for long term success of the game. That means change will happen in various states. So I will always discount those responses that auto-cite as robotic and unhelpful. I just want discussion without the "I know better" tone simply because of 'standards". That's all. And in no terms am I looking down on those standards, and I know they should be there and I think for the most part, they've been good. I'm just trying to advocate for small things here and there.






< Message edited by SapphireCatalyst2021 -- 10/14/2021 11:47:53 >
Post #: 27
10/14/2021 15:42:19   
CH4OT1C!
Member

quote:

I'm all for sticking with the models. Im not suggesting blowing anything up and going with new models. Legendary in the last line on his last post said balance standards are perfect as they are. They might be very good, but common sense says they can't be perfect. How many items exist that break the model? I'm not even talking builds... There are many. Example- Luck has 10% rate for lucky strike. The model includes this. But if you regularly cast arms of dragonguard, especially with celerity from shadowfeeder, there's no way the model gets maintained. I'm not advocating for change here, I'm simply pointing out you can break the model if you decide not to use the same bland equipment with little effects of yesteryear.


Arms of the Dragonguard takes a 40% damage penalty, worth 80% melee, in order to increase your critical hit ratio to 100%. Shadowfeeder Pendant enables you to pay SP to attempt to gain an additional 140% melee. In both of these scenarios, you sacrifice damage (from the player damage and SP components of the player turn formula) in order to gain effects that help you increase your damage in other ways. Within this context, both follow the model (Here I make a simplification because Dragonguard isn't technically balanced, but it has been designed with the intention of following balance and so I see this as irrelevant). In other words, this is not an example of breaking the model.

A better example is Essence Orb. It followed an outdated concept of HP costs based upon damage intake. 75HP was worth ~50% melee, the equivalent of 196sp. Multiply this by 0.9 (an always useful penalty that was on standard) and you get 176.4SP. Balance was intentionally broken, applying an additional *0.5 penalty because the Staff considered it to be too powerful. This resulted in the 88SP that it currently heals. This is deliberately unbalanced. It's also unbalanced in the new system, where it would be worth 75*0.9*1.125 = ~76sp. It wasn't balanced then, nor is it balanced now. Of course, neither of these scenarios are the reason why it needs nerfing - it's because we can essentially gain multiple bars of SP with little to no effort. That's why it's at the top of the list for nerfs.

quote:

The mage has two ways to play. Cast spells and use guests, using guests for less turns. Or just use guests, longer. And MP heal is not only stronger (1.5 vs 1.125), but more plentiful. Just potions alone.
Having access to MP for upkeeps (guests/miscs) and saving SP for other things already expands it's versaility far beyond the beast warrior who now cant heal SP the same.


Please reread my previous comments about being wary around comparing MP to SP. You are certainly correct to say that beastmages are able to use guests that cost SP and MP. However, MP heals are not directly comparable to SP heals, and they are not stronger. They are more plentiful, but this is because Mages use MP as a direct source of player damage. To equate this to a warrior, it would be like creating a guest that, as a cost, reduced player damage output by 30%.

quote:

There is no sound argument on the planet that would cause me to change my mind on that. And I don't even have the "math" to say otherwise. Even if it did show otherwise (I'd be shocked if it showed beastwarrior vastly outclassing beastmage) It still doesn't account for real life gameplay with real items, that do and will break models.

So, IMO, warriors need a small amount of SP help.

Here, you cross into the territory of the other issue I warned of - constraining this to a dichotomy between Warriors and Mages. SP is a universal resource. Rangers and other builds require solutions here too. Moreover, closing your mind to counterargument (even if that argument isn't well-founded) means that moving forward with this discussion becomes impossible.

Once again, nobody here is arguing that mages have increased versatility as a result of storing their damage as MP. We don't (yet) have many non-mage methods of utilising their equivalent resource. MP will somewhat shelter mage builds as SP regenerating items are brought onto current standards. With that said, non-mage builds are gaining preferential access to SP regeneration (the primary subject of this conversation doesn't even regenerate SP for them). This isn't balanced - SP is universal and technically builds should have equal access. However, it's fair due to the power balance we currently see. Non-mages need that advantage to be competitive right now.

I'll also interject with a (potentially) controversial opinion. The reason FO non-mages want access to this kind of SP regeneration is to regularly nuke their opponents. However, I would argue that, since mages are designed to offload damage inefficiently at the start of battle, they should inherently be better at nuking than other builds to begin with. Non-mages wanted to copy mages due to it being the meta, resulting in a slew of inefficient non-mage nuking items such as bloodzerker (again, let's gloss over that mages can use these). If we are to regain a sense of build identity, Non-mages shouldn't be attempting to copy mage (e.g. by having SP become a build-specific bar), but instead, focus on doing what they do best. Perhaps for warriors, this could be a focus using SP to deal decent damage efficiently, rather than high and inefficient strategies of mages.
AQ  Post #: 28
10/14/2021 21:27:59   
PD
Member

^^ That is probably not a very controversial opinion. As stated by before, mages typically get a 3/4x penalty on their regular attacks relative to their warrior/ranger counterparts because that penalty is made up with spellcasting. And Warriors don't get a penalty because they're supposed to (though very few play the "intended way".) use skills only a few times per battle. Warriors/Rangers a majority of the time spam normal attacks which by their nature are efficient by costing no resources. And that gets compensated by having stronger-than-normal regular attacks. I think toggles and/or elecomp'd weapon-based skills somewhat accomplish this by spreading out damage and costs over several turns, though other things can apply here too.




But I digress, this is becoming more of a general balance talk thread. I just tried to test the Eclipsed DL Bow and Sword and now I can confirm that the Bow doesn't seem to benefit from the FSB? It seems to work before, although I will clear my cache against and keep testing afterwards. Two hits with the shield and without the shield both did with either bow or sword healed 22/23 SP.

< Message edited by PD -- 10/14/2021 21:41:25 >
AQ MQ  Post #: 29
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