Soft damage cap per hit issue


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12/19/2021 4:45:38

ruleandrew
Member

Soft damage cap per hit in adventure quest mean players are discouraged from using one hit spell because players are likely to hit soft damage cap per hit. One method players tried to avoid soft damage cap per hit is to use spell that contain many hits.

In short ten hits spell is valued more than one hit spell if both spells average damage is the same.

Idea to fix soft damage cap per hit
Battle stats since you logged in today provide a framework to do soft damage cap per turn (player side).
Allow all player damage to occur for one round then monster heal if needed before pet attack. Monster heal before pet attack if player excess soft damage cap per turn.

This solution is the easiest to apply to tough boss monster in term of workload. This solution is the fairest for all gears (in term of hit count) in adventure quest.

< Message edited by ruleandrew -- 12/19/2021 4:51:14 >

Post #: 1

12/19/2021 12:19:38

Sapphire
Member

The game's become to a point that staff doesn't care too much about how stuff interacts with normal monsters. You can look at a normal monster and have it die. Who cares. One round wins (backlash stacks) or 10 round wins (some defensive variant that's pointless to use) ..it's all the same.

The focus is on boss mechanics it seems, to make the last battle of quests tougher, especially with the save mode on where you last ended up in a quest.

To me, there's no reason to have some sort of global code add-on based on log in, server time, etc simply for multi hit attacks/spells. It should just be something either added to the multi hit spells, or the boss monster mechanics.

You're suggesting to "fix soft damage per hit" isn't a fix. It's going back on a design mechanic staff is trying, on purpose, to make sure bosses arn't also a total cakewalk like normal monsters. Now you're suggesting to allow the cap to disappear, then allow monster heal, before pet attack? Why not just KEEP a cap and get the same result? Are you trying to get the monster to 0 HP, thus disallowing a heal? If that's the case, players would just nuke and win, and no heal.

I feel like this idea is literally not only trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist, but the fix is designed to help the player in a situation where the DESIGN is SUPPOSED to make the battle more difficult. You're undoing a mechanic that's there on purpose, and serves a purpose. I think not only is the idea completely unnecessary, it seems like you're not understanding why the mechanic is there.

Cray just finished saying the multi hit spells like fireball z and the old versions of the classic Z spells that were just ~~destroyed~~ revamped was considered a problem. Why? They're trying to keep bosses being difficult...and players are finding ways around that.

I already listed 2 solutions to what staff perceive as an issue.

1. There can be a clawback effect on damage caps (some) where the more hits that land, the lower the damage becomes. For example, for fireball z..if the damage cap is 200..after 5 hits it drops to 100, after 5 more hits it drops to 50. A progressive cap. It's like after so many hits the monster begins learning and can start reducing the damage. Also, you could do this with accuracy. More hits later, monster blocking increases. That's another way.
2. Front load spell damage in the first few hits. Maybe on fireball Z, 75% of the damage is on the first 5 hits, the next 5 is 15%, the last 5 is only 10% of the damage.
For the classic z token spells with 10 hits, you could front load 75% of the damage on the first 4 hits. 15% on hits 5-7, and 10% on hits 8-10.

There would need to be a "balance standard" implemented that any attack/spell that had more than X number of hits, this reduced cascading effect needs to take place. My thought are probably in the 5-6 range.

So instead of going in the opposite direction unnecessarily to what Cray mentioned (your idea), I think something closer to what I've stated would be better and keep bosses difficult (and fun)

Post #: 2

12/19/2021 16:18:17

J9408
Member

quote:

2. Front load spell damage in the first few hits. Maybe on fireball Z, 75% of the damage is on the first 5 hits, the next 5 is 15%, the last 5 is only 10% of the damage.
For the classic z token spells with 10 hits, you could front load 75% of the damage on the first 4 hits. 15% on hits 5-7, and 10% on hits 8-10.

You mean like what the Angry Trobble spell does right?

I think the standard for "Angry Trobble" would be a great solution to the multi hit spell problem.

Post #: 3

12/19/2021 19:36:28

ruleandrew
Member

Monster usually die if monster hp is less than 1. Monster do not die after player attack. Monster may die after pet attack or before player attack.

Pet may float instead of pet attack. Player may float instead of player attack.

Example A (simple case with player and pet attacking monster):
Monster hp before player attack is 50 hp. Monster is alive.
Monster hp after player attack (100 hp) is 0 hp. Monster is alive.
Monster hp before pet attack is 0 hp. Monster is alive.
Monster hp after pet attack (20 hp) is 0 hp. Monster is dead.

Example B (simple case with player and pet attacking monster and player soft damage cap is 50 hp per turn (claw back for exceeding soft damage cap per turn is 75 %)):
Monster hp before player attack is 50 hp. Monster is alive.
Monster hp after player attack (100 hp without any damage cap) is 0 hp. Monster is alive.
Monster hp before monster heal (before pet attack) is 0 hp. Monster is alive.
Monster hp after monster heal (before pet attack) is 37.5 hp. Monster is alive.
Monster hp before pet attack is 37.5 hp. Monster is alive.
Monster hp after pet attack (20 hp) is 17.5 hp. Monster is alive.

< Message edited by ruleandrew -- 12/19/2021 19:50:15 >

Post #: 4

12/19/2021 20:24:46

Legendary Ash
Member

Once again your approach is problematic as it does not consider the full extent of its consequences, as heals are affected by healing resistance, it enables manipulation by both the player and monster, the former can trivialize this proposed replacement for the damage cap with the increasing availability of healing resistance reduction equipment such as Lust and Envy, which is definitely not a characteristic of the original mechanic.

Your argument only appears to be valid by having completely forgotten about the existence of the other end of the spectrum, damage reduction exists as a mechanic to discourage multi hit attacks and encourage single hit attacks, in fact it is highly recommended that monsters have both damage caps and damage reduction to promote a middle ground, which solves the problem with the meta constantly seeking extremes.

Post #: 5

12/19/2021 21:37:00

ruleandrew
Member

This method is a alternative way to fix soft damage cap per hit.

Soft damage cap for 1st hit to connect to monster (same attack action) is X.
Soft damage cap for nth hit to connect to monster (same attack action) is X / (4 + (n * 2 - 4)), where n is 2 or larger.

Post #: 6

12/25/2021 15:34:30

CH4OT1C!
Member

I've just run some numbers on your proposal. I'm going to assume that the first hit deals the quoted damage cap, and that each subsequent hit is going to be constrained based on the same cap value. Note that I used your equation exactly:

quote:

X / (4 + (n * 2 - 4))

Cap = 150:

quote:

Hit 1 = 150
Hit 2 = 37.5 (62.5%)
Hit 3 = 25
Hit 4 = 18.75
Hit 5 = 15
Total = 246.25

Cap = 500:

quote:

Hit 1 = 500
Hit 2 = 125
Hit 3 = 83.33
Hit 4 = 62.5
Hit 5 = 50
Total = 820.83

Cap = 1000:

quote:

Hit 1 = 1000
Hit 2 = 250
Hit 3 = 166.67
Hit 4 = 125
Hit 5 =100
Total = 1641.67

Efficiency (% of combined cap):

quote:

Hit 1 = 100%
Hit 2 = 62.5%
Hit 3 = 47.2%
Hit 4 = 38.5%
Hit 5 = 32.8%

I believe that we all broadly agree that a downside with damage caps (soft and hard) is that they favour high-hit attacks. Traditionally, this type of attack has been more accessible to mages, providing another reason for calls around favouritism towards them. Something definitely needs to be done, and steps are being taken to ensure we don't have repeats of items like fireball z (i.e. extremely high hit counts). However, your proposal is not a good idea for two primary reasons. The first (demonstrated above) is that the major drop is being felt on the second and third hits of the attack, not at extremely high counts (i.e. what we're trying to discourage). It essentially means that anything beyond even a single hit is pretty pointless, since you'll be losing 75% of the starting cap. The second is it makes damage caps a lot more difficult to plan around. With soft damage caps as they stand, you can essentially tune them so you know each hit will do at least [cap] damage, with varying flexibility depending upon the clawback parameter. Here, you have to consider not only that your first hit will do up to [cap] damage, but that the second and beyond will only do a quarter of that value. You have to factor that in when deciding what cap to set.

This formula is more difficult to work with and, beyond that, your proposed parameters don't really do the job (as evidenced above). It's not a solution to the problem.

Post #: 7

12/26/2021 3:19:21

ruleandrew
Member

Situation
Soft damage cap on 1st hit is 150 damage. Spell deal 300 damage that is spread evenly across all hits. All spell hits connect to target.
Soft damage cap for nth hit to connect to monster (same attack action) is X / (4 + (n * 2 - 4)), where n is 2 or larger.

Soft damage cap for 2nd hit is 37.5 . Soft damage cap for 3rd hit is 25 . Soft damage cap for 4th hit is 18.75 . Soft damage cap for 5th hit is 15.

Result for 1 hit spell
150 damage before soft damage cap.

Result for 2 hits spell
150 + 37.5 = 187.5

187.5 damage before soft damage cap.

Result for 3 hits spell
100 + 37.5 + 25 = 162.5

162.5 damage before soft damage cap.

Result for 4 hits spell
75 + 37.5 + 25 + 18.5 = 156.25

156.25 damage before soft damage cap.

Result for 5 hits spell
60 + 37.5 + 25 + 18.5 + 15 = 156.25

156.25 damage before soft damage cap.

Proof:
AQ soft damage cap

Soft damage cap for nth hit is going to set a rough guide in term of player damage per turn cap.

< Message edited by ruleandrew -- 12/26/2021 4:48:05 >

Post #: 8

12/30/2021 14:45:04

CH4OT1C!
Member

To be honest, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with that response. I suppose you could just about argue that this was a rough guide. With that said, assuming a hit number of 2 (which is extremely common) deals 25% more damage than the cap would suggest.

How would this cap work in practice? You're putting the majority of damage on the first hit that connects. What if you rely on pets/guests? Those builds typically rely on more hits than other builds. The player would have to ensure that they didn't attack in order to preserve the cap for their companions. What about celerity? If this works on a per turn basis, celerity counts as the same player turn, which makes it useless for damage dealing. What about DoT statuses like Poison/Bleed/Burn? Do they count? If so, those builds would massively suffer (and they aren't the problem!).

I don't think this solution has been considered properly...

Post #: 9

12/30/2021 18:16:46

ruleandrew
Member

I will make the picture on soft damage cap per hit a bit more clear.

Soft damage cap for nth hit to connect to monster (same attack action) is X / (4 + (n * 2 - 4)), where n is 2 or larger.

Situation
You use a armour that has 2 hits, a pet that has 2 hits and a guest that has 2 hits. Additional the monster take one hit from burn.

Result
Soft damage cap for 1st hit that connect (from armour attack) to monster is X .
Soft damage cap for 2nd hit that connect (from armour attack) to monster is X / 4 .

Soft damage cap for 1st hit that connect (from pet attack) to monster is X .
Soft damage cap for 2nd hit that connect (from pet attack) to monster is X .

Soft damage cap for 1st hit that connect (from guest attack) to monster is X .
Soft damage cap for 2nd hit that connect (from guest attack) to monster is X .

Soft damage cap for 1st hit that connect (from burn attack) to monster is X .

Note
Soft damage cap for 1st hit that connect (from armour attack, during player celerity round 1) to monster is X .
Soft damage cap for 2nd hit that connect (from armour attack, during player celerity round 1) to monster is X / 4 .

Some same attack action examples are: armour attack, armour attack (player celerity round 1), quick cast skill attack, turn end skill attack, quick cast spell attack and turn end spell attack

< Message edited by ruleandrew -- 12/30/2021 19:47:37 >

AQ	Post #: 10

1/7/2022 14:44:46

Plushie Nugget
Member

lol
"don't try to fix what's not broken" my 2 cents

Post #: 11

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