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Monster Formula for Hitting with Attacks

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12/19/2021 18:05:59   
Lurasidone1842
Member
 

 Over the last couple days, I have been trying to figure out what various monsters' chances are of getting a hit. To do this, I have been using the formula for getting a hit that appears in the master list of formulas, as well as the formula for calculating a character's blocking chances. I have also been using nivp's monster database to find out what the BtH is for the particular monsters that I have been interested in. Unfortunately, based on the calculations that I have done, and I have asked people in the Gogg's Tavern Discord to confirm the correctness of my calculations, monsters have been getting hits in spots that the formulas indicate should not be possible.

So, what I am wondering is if the formula listed in the master list for hitting an attack actually applies to monsters. I was told that it does, but it does not seem to based on doing the calculations. If the formula in the master list does apply to monsters, what hidden BtH variables do monsters have that do not show up in the database that are leading to seemingly impossible outcomes based on the information that I have? Also, if these hidden variables do exist, would it be possible to find them or estimate them in some way?

Sorry if this is not the correct place for this post. I have not made a forum post before.
Post #: 1
12/19/2021 19:10:29   
Legendary Ash
Member

As always calculations involving damage, accuracy and statuses are averages, as indicated by the Master list formulas, there is a Random Number Generator aspect employed in Base+Random+Stat% of equipment, whether an attack connects and in saves of status conditions, this causes deviation from calculations based on individual experiences per battle and monster.

< Message edited by Legendary Ash -- 12/19/2021 19:14:16 >
AQ  Post #: 2
12/19/2021 20:14:09   
Lurasidone1842
Member
 

 I understand that there is an RNG aspect to determining whether attacks connect. But, according to the master list of formulae: “If Attacker Value + Roll > Defender Value, then it hits. Otherwise it misses. Certain special actions, like healing spells, will always hit.” There is not, from my reading of the formula, an RNG aspect to either Attacker Value or Defender value; RNG is entirely contained to the roll. So, if the formula does apply to monsters, you can become unhittable by making your Defender Value 100 or more greater than the monster’s Attacker Value. This should make it impossible for the monster to hit because no roll will satisfy the relevant inequality. In practice, however, there seem to be situations where no roll for the monster should work, but the monster is occasionally hitting.
Post #: 3
12/20/2021 0:30:53   
Legendary Ash
Member

Like the player, monsters can have BtH leans, auto hit and skills/spells to boost BtH, these stats are separate from the standard level scaling values that forms the base of all equipment and monsters.
AQ  Post #: 4
12/20/2021 2:52:17   
Sapphire
Member

Go here and download my spreadsheet. Thorough testing reveals its accurate->https://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=22398524

In a nutshell, there are two values to determine Chance to Land a Hit.
1. Attacker's Value
2. Defender's Value


The formula for chance to hit is

Chance to Hit = (100 + Attacker Value - Defender Value) / 100

Chance to Hit is in decimal form. It will always lie between 0 and 1.

If the number hit and falls below 0, its always blocked. If it hits 1 or higher, it never misses.

This number represents a *Random* chance. 0.85 is the assumed balance standard, pure build vs pure build. That means there's an 85% chance to hit, and 15% chance to miss.

The spreadsheet provided allows you to input stat data, effects such as blinds, entangle, berserk, MRM blocking, combined armor/shield blocking, bth buffs (or leans). You will never know if a monster has a lean.

Also, the monster bth is assumed to be the same as a player's standard armor+weapon at L150, which is 19 and 19 ..so monster bth w/o any lean is +38. This is represented as armor and weapon on attacker's value if you decide the attacker is the monster.

In testing, once you receive enough combined blind, entangle, berserk, MRM buff (like from bun barrrets or mixed nuts, etc) to make the hit rate on this spreadsheet fall below 0 (I have converted the 0-1 value into a percentage), I have yet to be hit....making me think the math here applies to in game results exactly as it says. The yellow boxes are what you change, the blue ones calculate based on the yellow.

Again, every monster I have input their stats into attackers value, then inflict various blinds/entangles/MRM buffs, berserk, etc into those section to get to a negative value (based on what i actually have in-game), I have not once been hit after achieving the negative value.

Auto-hit monsters exist, though.
Post #: 5
12/20/2021 3:32:30   
Lurasidone1842
Member
 

 I went to the page and looked at what you were doing. This seems to be what I was looking for! Unfortunately, I had to request permission to view the spreadsheet so I have not been able to see it yet. The equations you were referencing on the page I looked at are what I was using so we should be getting the same results. I was doing the calculations for my level 117 dodge character against a level 105 Griffin monster and using the BtH value for that monster from nivp's database. The value I got there for the Griffin was 29 base BtH at level 105.

Here are the calculations that I did:

If im fighting a level 105 Griffin with 175 dex and 155 luck and it uses a ranged attack, it should have its base 29 bth plus 31 bth from stats (rounding up to give the griffin some extra bth and make things easier). So if I have 70 ranged defense plus 33 blocking gained from Pig Drake and Dusk Stance, as well as 295 dex, i should have 139 mrm. Additionally Dusk Stance and the Paladin Apprentice guest should reduce the griffin's bth by 19+12 in my particular case, moving the attacker value of the Griffin down to 29. So according to the formulas given on the master formula page, a roll of 100 would still only give the griffin 129 to hit and I would have 139 mrm, which should make it impossible for the griffin to hit me. Is all of this correct?

I did this math, but I got hit in the above situation and I am not sure how it is possible. It was a Griffin I fought on the Fujin Set quest if that makes any difference somehow. Joac also said he looked into the Griffin and it does not have a special BtH lean of any sort. I do not understand how it is possible that I got hit here and I have not yet found an answer.
Post #: 6
12/20/2021 12:28:51   
Sapphire
Member

Permission was granted. That was the first time for me ever trying to share a file, so I'm learning on the fly. I was hoping anyone can just download it and use. Ah well.

My spreadsheet, and I am assuming you have 250 luck, even with all that shows the monster has a -18% chance to hit. Remove luck it goes to -11.75.

So since we don't know monster leans, maybe it has a large lean. It would probably need to be at least +12, and leans *can* go to 20.

It also might have a auto hit attack.

This is based on what you provided.
Post #: 7
12/20/2021 13:43:15   
Lurasidone1842
Member
 

 Thanks for sharing! I had 0 luck in the example but it should not have mattered like you said.

Have you done testing against Might Shadow Roc? I'm curious if that has a BtH lean or if something is wrong. Joac said the Griffin does not have a lean which means either I misunderstood something or the game is bugged somehow.

From my understanding Shadowfall Raiment in Dusk Stance should give a boost to blocking as well as give the monster a negative BtH lean. This -12 BtH effect is functionally a berserk, as I interpret it, and does not show up in the game anywhere, unlike the blocking effect which gets mixed in with other blocking boosts in the Status Effects page. So, I wonder if the berserk effect is not being applied for some reason, at least with the level 115 version of the Shadowfall Raiment. It is also possible that I have misunderstood how Paladin's Apprentice works. I believe the Paladin's Apprentice reduces monster BtH by whatever amount appears when you hover over him. This also does not appear in the status effects page so it is possible it is not applying properly when used with Dusk Stance for some reason. My understanding is that the berserk from Shadowfall Raiment and the Paladin Apprentice effect are meant to fully stack and lower the monster BtH by roughly 30 each time it attacks (the 30 number comes from assuming Paladin Apprentice is good for 18 against non-undead non-demon monsters). It appears that this is not happening. I have tested this a few times and this seems to be the only possible conclusion, assuming I understand all the mechanics properly, because Joac ruled out monster leans in the case of the Griffin example and I know I was not dealing with auto hit attacks. Do I have the proper understanding of all the relevant mechanics?

Have you done testing with Shadowfall Raiment and Paladin's Apprentice and run into any deviations from what the math says should happen?

< Message edited by Lurasidone1842 -- 12/20/2021 13:44:23 >
Post #: 8
12/20/2021 20:02:02   
Sapphire
Member

I have not used Paladin's Apprentice. I usually use dual bun barrets, Mandate for blind, roots of daw for entangle, the Hollowborn shield's skill for berserk, and occasionally bag of mixed nuts or the Zfinity gauntlet that gives the blocking boost.
I have also used moonwalker's grace and EdoC Imanok on occasion. I also have used hairmuffs.

I do know the vorpal zard has an auto hit attack, as the verbiage pops up about it's attack slicing through your defenses.

And I *think* there is a skeleton based mob that throws a bone at you that seems to go through your blocking and I cant remember it's name. Very common enemy. The hit damages itself. But against everything else, the spreadsheet seems to hold true.

Also, if the monster is using ranged attacks, you will have to just put the same value for mainstat as dexterity even if the monster doesn't have anything or if it has something different to get the same result. It was one concession I made in the design, and I mostly threw the thing together in about an hour for calculating purposes and then later added the colors and other aesthetics.


I do wonder if Shadow Raiment is bugged. The ele vuln is for sure bugged. It even doesnt work if you switch armors and attack with darkness or light...the damage will not increase as if the vuln is there...last I checked. If that's bugged, could the berserk-like effect also be?

< Message edited by SapphireCatalyst2021 -- 12/20/2021 20:03:49 >
Post #: 9
12/20/2021 22:42:09   
Lurasidone1842
Member
 

 The fact that you have used the spreadsheet and it works in general makes me think something must be bugged about Shadowfall or at least bugged about it in its interaction with Paladin's Apprentice. I've done the calculations as I have presented them, and nobody seems to think that I have done the math wrong or interpreted the abilities incorrectly. I know the attacks I've been getting hit with are not autohit because I've seen them miss. It's just that they don't miss 100% like my calculations indicate they are supposed to.

The skeleton mob you are talking about is called Death Knight I think, and I believe you are right that his jumping self-destructing attack is autohit.

I cannot definitively prove that something is bugged, and it's still possible I have misunderstood how Shadowfall is supposed to work with Paladin's Apprentice, but barring that I'm pretty sure there is a bug. I do not really know what I should do at this point--if I should report this as a bug or ask a developer to look into it somehow. It feels awkward because I don't have conclusive proof and I may have made a mistake somewhere, but it feels like a bug is pretty likely at this point.
Post #: 10
12/21/2021 1:36:44   
Sapphire
Member

No harm is reporting it. All that can happen is they find nothing wrong, but a thought did occur to me...

The paladin guest doesnt show the blocking in your status section, only if you hover over it. Other pets/guests with a blocking mode, it actually shows. What if the effect isnt really being applied?

Maybe what you can do to test, is try and get the hit rate against something to juuuuust under 0 using Paladins guest...and figure out what the hit rate would be if that added MRM boost wasnt there...and test.

Also change armors, but some quick testing makes me think it's not the armor

< Message edited by SapphireCatalyst2021 -- 12/21/2021 1:51:53 >
Post #: 11
12/22/2021 21:50:31   
Lurasidone1842
Member
 

 I am interested in reporting it to either get it fixed or get further clarification about how it's supposed to work, but I am not sure who to go to.
Post #: 12
12/22/2021 22:37:55   
Sapphire
Member

I would just go to the bugs section and put down as much info as possible. You'll need to include your build, the specific monster (lvl, may include it's stats) any and all effects that were current.
Post #: 13
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