RE: =AQ= Stat and Training Overhaul


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3/21/2022 23:42:13

Biokirkby
Member

quote:

Pure Mages just became Ranged weapon users, so this now pushes mages ahead in damage over time

Mages would only do that if they had Dex, which makes them Magic/Ranged hybrids. Mages could just as easily become warrior hybrids.

If that was an issue, it would be fixed by Primate Murder's suggestion (Which I think is not bad?) but the mages would, again, just swap to classic hybrid.

(That said, I'd like it if ranged weapons did more damage than magic weapons. I don't want it to be the defensive-main stat)

< Message edited by Biokirkby -- 3/22/2022 0:01:17 >

AQW

Post #: 26

3/21/2022 23:45:59

Korriban Gaming
Member

quote:

Balance in the game isn't performed exclusively via mathematical comparison. There is a set of standards that evolve when challenged by fact, and otherwise inform decisions. Both of these must be balanced with fun/interesting concepts when designing an item. There has been no shortage of mathematically balanced items that nonetheless came out overpowered or underpowered, and human error can result in either - With precious little time to correct a backlog of such.

The only reason why I said that was because there has recently been an abundance of discussions regarding how items should be changed because they don't fit in with mathematical standards. I am reassured to hear that that is not the only facet the staff looks at when designing or changing items.

quote:

Guests provide an output that is well above what they pay for. They should be paying 48% of a spell per turn, but cost 17.5% of one instead. This is something that I explained elsewhere as a response to queries, and answers the matter of overperformance before getting into the fact that assumptions for pets/guests (Such as costs for ones that provide boosts) are inconsistent and in need of review.

This is what I mean when I say balance on paper =/= balance in the game. So you're essentially saying SP upkeep cost for guests should be close to tripled for them to be balanced. That would make guests not worth using at all if you factor in the other stuff we need SP for. Even then, we would not be able to sustain the guests for more than a few turns if guests were to follow this standard. The other alternative would be to nerf guest damage but that would run into the same problem above of making guests not worth using.

quote:

there was no official statement of design intent about "nerfing guest damage and increasing its upkeep cost"

I apologize for this then, I was mistaken and stuff was presented to me out of context.

quote:

In fact, increasing guest upkeep cost wouldn't be a practical solution.

I am glad you see this but I hope it doesn't mean that their damage will be nerfed by that same amount because as I mentioned above, it would also be impractical. Honestly, despite this "mathematical imbalance", I don't feel guests are overpowered for their cost but I know not everyone will agree with this. I say this because you usually can't upkeep both a guest and a misc for a long time. Even shorter if you're planning on using skills or buffs.

Now that you mentioned it, STR does seem a bit underwhelming. Maybe consider changing STR/160 to a different number (I'm not sure what would make it not OP but not UP so I'll leave it up to the staff to decide on this). Consider splitting status potence between STR and DEX?

AQW

Post #: 27

3/22/2022 0:20:22

Sapphire
Member

@ Biokirby

Magic weapons have .75 potency compared to melee weapons and ranged weapons as for base/random. A Pure Mage at 250/INT/DEX/LUK has slightly better results using magic weapons over Ranged weapons currently.

Hollow mentioned that it turns out with some boosts, Mages outperform Warriors over time. This was the basis for the Melee damage buff using STR, although it's there for all attacks.

With the proposed change to Ranged Weapons, Pure Mages keep their spell damage/accuracy, keep their total blocking, get better initiative, better status potence, and also now can use Ranged weapons for a boost from the .75 from before, to the normalized warrior damage. They're hybrids without training any differently, and without any downsides, as compared to before. The Ranged damage HAS TO HAVE a NEGATIVE damage applied to it based on INT, to balance this back down. All you do is have a -Int/? that brings it to .75 power, or if the decision was to disallow mages from another weapon type, just increase the INT hit to it. It'd be all good.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know these will never happen and I will simply say it again and I'm honestly not rehashing old sensitivities , and I'll leave it be, but if...

Strength seems lacking (lucks now ...cringe) maybe warriors gain a small SP regen buff OR Melee gains an even cheaper SP skill cost even compared to Ranged, since Dext is providing status potency.
So Dex-> Status Potency + Greater role in Initiative
Strength-> Minor Str/? SP regen add-on. Wouldnt hurt to simply test.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Charisma-> Guests I don't find it a huge issue to reduce Guest damage, TBH...depending on by how much. If it's small, I think it would be fine. Charisma is providing large amounts of versatility. That alone makes it a good stat, irregardless of some mathematical model of Damage over time. Charisma being looked at after everything else is settled is the way to go.

However*, with the buffs to all of these builds...perhaps other builds have been bumped up to match or close to BM's. Think about it..

< Message edited by SapphireCatalyst2021 -- 3/22/2022 0:33:53 >

Post #: 28

3/22/2022 3:30:35

Ninjaty
Member

See, I am always kind of scared when it comes to changes like these, as I rarely use the same items and strategies as the ones changes like these are made for.
My characters are generally much slower than what others are playing with, and generally have much lower damage output and survivability as well.

Some fights, even from random battles, I just barely survive (and sometimes only by turning to potions). I really hope these changes will improve my performance, though I fear for the opposite as well. We will have to wait and see; I really can't wrap my head around it.

quote:

Players will be able to train as many points as they want at a time in Battleon, limited only by their available funds and stat points.

Untraining in Battleon resets ALL stat points for a fee.

THANK YOU! I had just finished training DEX for my main, and when I saw the thread, I was dying a little inside, until I saw these.
These are awesome changes. These I can wrap my head around and I love them already.

quote:

Removal of all required battles for Training and Untraining.

What, then? Just fields to enter your desired stat totals and buttons to apply, if valid? Some clarification would be much appreciated.

< Message edited by Ninjaty -- 3/22/2022 3:47:57 >

Post #: 29

3/22/2022 3:36:37

arcanum37
Member

You barely survive some fights, even if they're random battles? Really? You're using a level appropriate armor and shield of the correct element to defend against the enemy attacks, right?

Post #: 30

3/22/2022 8:56:34

ruleandrew
Member

-- Ideal stat power --
(INT + CHA) build = (INT + END) build = (INT + LUCK) build

(INT + DEX) build = (INT + STR) build

(INT + CHA) build is better than (INT + DEX) build

AQ	Post #: 31

3/22/2022 9:06:51

Ward_Point
Armchair Archivist

The game staff appreciate your feedback, which is why this list of planned changes was put out before implementation. As a player I've played this game for 20 years and love it, so it's really cool to see everyone getting passionate about their perspectives, but please remember to be civil and generally nice to each other.

As a forum AK, I'm going to ask that we keep the focus on the distinct identities of a Warrior, Mage & Ranger and a bit less on CHA.

Currently, Mages have the identity of being "Bursty" for the first 4 turns, followed by weaker damage later on.

Warriors are consistent with their attacks.

Currently, it's obvious that the staff want Rangers to have their own identity distinct from Warriors.

Currently, DEX gives the full damage boost equal Strength, all the while retain its defensive advantage (Blocking). The proposed changes (Read: NOT FINAL) suggests that a Warrior will deal 2.5% more than the Ranger per turn.

Numerically, this is problematic enough on its own without factoring the status potence.

Let's try to keep the discussion on point.

1) Let's try to explore the "Ranger identity", whether it's a Dragoon (Spear user) or Archer (Bow user.) Would you prefer to lean into the Status Infliction? Or do you envision a Ranger being more... inconsistent, somehow, with high highs and low lows.
2) Let's compare apples to apples. A mage can invest in DEX and get a number of benefits, I get that, but is it worth gaining 25% melee per turn, but giving up the benefits of CHA/LUK? Compare 'Primary Stats' with other 'Primary Stats', and compare 'Secondary Stats' to other 'Secondary Stats'
3) DEX is probably doing a little too much and this makes Strength a little weak in comparison. Let's deal with this.
4) CHA's a little problematic, but that's more due to Guests than the Stat itself. Hollow has mentioned that the AQ Team will look into it, they will, just not right now.

< Message edited by Ward_Point -- 3/22/2022 9:46:45 >

AQ	Post #: 32

3/22/2022 9:07:35

EternalDragonX
Member

Removing BTH from DEX is long overdue and a great change, good job!

However, I'm not so sure on making initiative so dependant on DEX. So basically everyone has to invest in DEX and LUK to go first now? Maybe make it DEX/2 for init to align it with STR and INT?

Also I think it would be a good idea to add CHA/2 to init, otherwise beastmasters can never go first lol

Post #: 33

3/22/2022 9:27:40

ruleandrew
Member

I would like a Ranger being more... inconsistent, somehow, with high highs and low lows.

AQ	Post #: 34

3/22/2022 10:56:00

Branl
Member

I suppose it's important to preface discussion about suggested changes with laying out the issues with trying to balance Dexterity based on dodge and Initiative.
Dodge is in a weird position in that while it does provide 25 MRM total, it has to work against Monster bth, portions of Dex's "dodge" is negated and in terms of actual function, you don't actual get the ability to dodge any attacks from a average Monster until you have over 200 Dexterity or over 75 Dexterity and 250 Luck. While technically you get dodge before those benchmarks, it doesn't increase your chance to dodge before then.

And with regards to Initiative, the problem with that is that initiative on it's own has proven to not stack up to the equivalent contribution in other aspects like damage or a skill. The Hydrocampus armor for example is, correct me if I'm wrong, more "accurate" in terms of how it values init vs something like H-series which treats it like an add on. Despite that, however, Hydrocampus was an abstract failure in terms of attracting players to it, even after initiative was changed to provide a turn one damage boost if you succeed in going first. Conversely, H Series is very powerful with that Initiative on top of the ele comp toggle. Initiative (as a "bonus") is part of the reason why it's so strong while Initiative is the reason why Hydrocampus ("as a more appropriate valuation of init) is considered so weak.

With this in mind, the ideal would be Dex not stepping on the toes of Warriors, which it invariably does with all the bonuses it provides on top of full weapon damage. A solution I proposed is:
75% Weapon Damage, Axe Status Potency, maintain Dodge and Initiative, increase Lucky Strike Chance based on Block and increase the Lucky Strike Chance because it's based on block (or not).
I have been informed that interlocking Dexterity with Lucky strike is a very bad idea, but I feel the underlying idea of that proposal can be looked at to try to maintain FO rangers as a distinct build without it stepping on the toes of FO Warrior. FO Rangers will get to play with getting higher damage sometimes ("Critical Hit"), while FD rangers get to enjoy the Blocking.

I have some thoughts on FD Warrior, but I suppose I'd want to know if that's a build that's being considered with these stat revamps before I talk about that. Currently "FD Warrior" only has one weapon (Baorus Whip) and it does legitimately raise questions on if FD Warrior is something the staff can or want to make exist.

Post #: 35

3/22/2022 13:19:53

Geißel
Member

If Mages are upfront burst, and Warriors are consistent damage, why not make Rangers focus on Ramping damage? Since they have status potency they can apply burns, bleeds, elevulns, freeze... better than their competition.

AQ	Post #: 36

3/22/2022 15:34:51

Kaizoku
Member

^
Hey, that actually sounds cool!

Post #: 37

3/22/2022 15:46:33

battlesiege15
Member

Can we get the ability to put all points into just 1 stat?

750 CHA beastmaster will make even a level 1 Bunny Rabbit a dire threat

AQW

Post #: 38

3/22/2022 16:15:58

Sapphire
Member

quote:

1) Let's try to explore the "Ranger identity", whether it's a Dragoon (Spear user) or Archer (Bow user.) Would you prefer to lean into the Status Infliction? Or do you envision a Ranger being more... inconsistent, somehow, with high highs and low lows.

A. Rangers = 100 Proc Bows, Defensive armors as a result, and High Status Inflict Rates. High Random Damage. Default LS Rate by half, Damage by 1.5.
B "Rogues" ->Same Build as Rangers, but offensive-> Uses Standard Ranged. Standard Ranged weapons get different stat attributes compared to 100 Proc Bows. These are offensive Ranged users.

Both Weapons focus on STRONGER THAN NORMAL STATUS AFFECTS, which is why you gain the +5 Potency based on Dex training. Ranged Weapon based status effects will need a balance standard redesign, with higher than normal inflict *and* more powerful effects. Maybe 10-15% stronger.

C. Ranged Weapon Stat bonus *has to have* an Int decreaser. Mages shouldn't be allowed to use these with the same efficiency. Unnecessary comment removed ~ Ward

quote:

2) Let's compare apples to apples. A mage can invest in DEX and get a number of benefits, I get that, but is it worth gaining 25% melee per turn, but giving up the benefits of CHA/LUK? Compare 'Primary Stats' with other 'Primary Stats', and compare 'Secondary Stats' to other 'Secondary Stats'

Relook at point C above. There's no reason for a Mage to use a Magic weapon. Edited for tone~ Ward ByeBye warriors no matter the "fix" for them. Horrible idea to give Mages +25% melee per 16 turns, or Beastmages every turn.
Int/Dex/Char will be crazy good. Why be a warrior, or even a regular mage then?

quote:

3) DEX is probably doing a little too much and this makes Strength a little weak in comparison. Let's deal with this.

Get out of the "X was intended for Y" business and think outside the box. The only answer here is Str/6 per turn (approx 41) SP Regen on top of the standard. No need to adjust SP skill costs. This gives Warriors an extra skill-cast every 10 turns over Rangers. That's going to be the only answer. Collecting feedback after some tests would be good. Edited for tone ~ Ward

------------------------------
Other issues/Reiterations
------------------------------

1. END builds gained more than Healing and status resist, they gained huge swatchs more BTH. Backlash's #1 drawback, lack of BTH, gained it. No more drawbacks. Unnecessary comment removed ~ Ward
A. Change BTH to MainStat/8+Luck/20. Reduces End builds BTH (the big drawback) and increases lucks newfound pigeonholed pointless to train status at least a little
2. Luck is the worst stat by far now. It got stepped on for status resist and status inflict, and worse than people realize. Luck's "help" is always Luck vs Luck, so 250 vs 250 is a wash. Status Potency and resist for Dex/End is an always Add-on, no matter the result.
A. Luck did get the blocking increase, but needs the above aforementioned change to BTH to push it in a more balanced state of affairs. You have to remember, hypercrit and interactions with red server cap/crown will be fixed, and the current taking advantage of it will die. There's already other aspects of Lucky Strikes that exist and are planned for it's removal. Please review this oversight.
3. Ranged Damage should be Dex/8-Int/ At LEAST 16, if not 8. Unnecessary comment removed ~ Ward

Edited for tone. Please engage in debate with a kinder tone. ~ Ward

< Message edited by Ward_Point -- 3/22/2022 23:01:08 >

Post #: 39

3/22/2022 21:21:19

Biokirkby
Member

I'm leaning more towards Magic and Ranged damage doing equal damage, and Strength bringing them up the Strength standard- this would make extra sense for magic weapons, since Werepyre does the same.

This would mean we don't have to do 'extreme' things like change SP regeneration, or have one stat reduce the effectiveness of another- that feels too wild to me. Pure Dexterity builds can make up for this lower damage with better dodging and status inflictions, like a classic rogue/archer.

AQW

Post #: 40

3/22/2022 21:37:37

Sapphire
Member

I don't necessarily disagree but the attempt is separating the BUILD of Warrior and Ranger. They want warriors to not use ranged and a ranger to not use melee. 250 dex/str means there isn't any difference in build as it is today. Most people are not going to minimize their build for the sake of "playstyle" although some do.

I think staff is asking for a balanced approach to achieving this. And sp regen add-ons or subtracting based on another stat isn't extreme at all. That's simply hyperbole, nothing more. Not if one can get past old intentions and branch outside whats always been the status quo.

Either way, whats so difficult with "lets try this for 2 weeks" approach? Just test and adjust . It will be fine.

Post #: 41

3/22/2022 22:49:08

Ward_Point
Armchair Archivist

quote:

Relook at point C above. There's no reason for a Mage to use a Magic weapon. Edited for tone~ Ward ByeBye warriors no matter the "fix" for them. Horrible idea to give Mages +25% melee per 16 turns, or Beastmages every turn.
Int/Dex/Char will be crazy good. Why be a warrior, or even a regular mage then?

Actual math:
Without LUK, accuracy is decreased by 6.25 BTH. This translates roughly into 79/85 = 0.929

Melee Attack consists of 3 portions: The weapon, the Mainstat (STR or DEX in this case) & LUK.
44% Weapon
43% Mainstat
13% LUK
Therefore, without LUK, 0.87*0.989=0.808

Spells
LUK's LS Damage is retained at the same absolute value, implying that LS effectiveness is halved (This is rough estimation)
Therefore, [2-(0.13/2)] = 1.798 Melee

A melee attack without LUK is = 0.808 Melee
A Spell without LUK = 1.798 Melee

4 Spells and 16 Turns later = 20.12

Basically, a Mage that invests in 250 INT/DEX/CHA deals 20.12 Melee Damage over 20 Turns, compared to the 'Pure Mage' that deals 20 Melee damage over 20 turns... Magic Weapons don't seem very dead to me. The numbers could use some tweaking to bring it in line.

We can also make the 'very' reasonable assumption that it makes little sense that Pet BtH is tied to DEX in some way. It will be very odd to cripple Warriors and Mages and stop them from using Pets/Guests to their full effect while a Ranger can make full use of it

< Message edited by Ward_Point -- 3/22/2022 23:01:58 >

AQ	Post #: 42

3/22/2022 23:41:57

Sapphire
Member

20 Turns (Keep in Mind, CHA will be adding way more damage on top compared to no CHA)

250 INT/DEX/CHA

Ranged Weapons- 20.12 Melee (If casting 4 spells, but may Opt for Guest/Pet)
Magic Weapons- 17.59 Melee? (If casting 4 Spells, but may Opt for Guest/Pet)

250 INT/DEX/LUK

Ranged Weapons-24 Melee?
Magic Weapons- 20 Melee

When you look within the root build, what I am calling 250 INT/DEX, and then compare *within the same build*, the difference between using magic weapons or Ranged weapons, with this new proposal simply because each one trained Dexterity, if they use Ranged weapons over Magic weapons you gain 2.53 Melee for a charisma buil;d, and 4 melee for the luk build.

So why would each of these two Mage variants use magic weapons in favor of Ranged, unless the magic weapon were spell-boosters? For attacking, they're dead.

If the numbers are off, please feel free to correct.

Post #: 43

3/22/2022 23:52:40

Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

Bear in mind that applying build definitions from a pre-revamp paradigm to the context of this proposal results in incompatible definitions in the best of cases. While understandable, it merits highlighting.

Per the removal of universal BTH from Dexterity, new builds could be expected to have one main stat and two secondary stats, two main stats and a secondary stat, all three main stats, or all three secondaries.

We're not wanting to prevent players from using multiple main stats. If a player decides to play STR/INT/END to have access to consistent melee weapon damage so as to have no falloff after casting, with high enough health to further mitigate risks, that's a perfectly valid build and not something we're trying to counter.

What we do need is a distinct identity for every stat. I'm hoping to bring more information on this topic soon.

< Message edited by Cray -- 3/23/2022 0:06:50 >

Post #: 44

3/22/2022 23:58:04

PD
Member

Another thought that I brought up when I addressed it awhile ago: The game should detect early on if you haven't upgraded your stats to do so, or at least after every level up tell you that you can train your stats as part of the level up dialogue. Currently leveling up only tells you that you have gained a level, but it should tell you that you've gotten +5 stats. A lot of games actually do this when you level up.

Otherwise, still hoping the AQ team listens to my recommendation to implement a stat slider list from my earlier post. Since training/untraining is now consolidated I think it's a little redundant to have a separate flow for training/untraining. You could easily do it in 1 simple and intuitive menu.

I'll fire up a minimal sandbox to show what I think would be a really great UI for stat training going forward in just a moment...

EDIT: Voila! I don't think the staff will really go with this since it looks like a lot of the UI is already done, but I think this is the ideal design to make training/untraining 1 seamless, easy to use menu. In the future, I'll be doing more things like this when the staff does a UI update and I think the UI could be improved from what I see of it, or just when I have a good idea of how a flow should be done.

< Message edited by PD -- 3/23/2022 0:39:16 >

Post #: 45

3/23/2022 0:21:00

Ward_Point
Armchair Archivist

Sapphire: Why are you insisting that Mages invest in DEX? I personally wouldn't build INT/DEX/LUK after revamp. If I'm looking to maximize damage, I'll do INT/LUK/CHA. Your assumption that I will invest in DEX as a mage is inherently flawed.

Excluding Guests (Because they aren't part of the standard assumptions)
INT/LUK/CHA damage over 20 turns = 28 Melee
INT/DEX/LUK Ranged Weapons = 28 Melee
INT/DEX/CHA Ranged Weapons = 24.12 melee
INT/DEX/CHA Magic Weapons = Approx 20 Melee

I've already proven that Int/Luk mages are pretty close to Int/Dex Mages. We need some minor weaks to DEX to even that out because DEX also gives Blocking, which probably needs to be paid for somewhere. This is something that most people understand. From an offensive viewpoint, LUK doesn't seem shafted to me.

The goal is for the primary stats of STR/DEX/INT to be balanced, and at some point, for the secondary effects of each Primary stat to also provide the same mathematical benefit as the secondary stats of CHA, END and LUK.

AQ	Post #: 46

3/23/2022 0:41:53

Sapphire
Member

I am not insisting it. I dont even have it on my character and when I did even with the current power of it, I still decided not to. I wouldn't after, either. But this game has many many many players who do,and not just because of BTH. Yes, defensive stuff matters, too.

Considering how large swaths of players currently play, and the addition and likely expansion of dodgelash, the reality is this:

It's not flawed to assume players want to block attacks as a primary reason, and then realize as a secondary benefit to training Dex you can just use Ranged weapons instead of magic weapons for more damage.

While you may not want that build after revamp, there will be large swaths of the current blocking meta remain IMO. And Dex provides that.

Lets make the changes and let the players feel it all out and we will simply see where the players flesh out until it's time for the next stat revamp, or further tweaks are realized. Prob best way to tell, really.

Post #: 47

3/23/2022 13:10:04

Noremak Soothsayer
Member

Question: Will dodge warriors (STR/DEX/LUK) be a figment of my imagination? There are alot of shields that proc their ability off a successful dodge or block. For example, shield of agony drains health or the Lorian shield which incentivizes remaining at full health for dodging (and damage reduction.)

If this is the case, warriors will have to gravitate towards reduction shields (which aren't as plentiful) or skill shields (which is growing pretty steadily).

Post #: 48

3/23/2022 15:24:54

arcanum37
Member

To maximise MRM, you'd need to run DEX and LUK. Since DEX is becoming a proper mainstat like the other two, unless you specifically wanted to play a warrior-ranger hybrid, why would you run STR? You can now just stick to ranged weapons, Alchemical Unity for example.

Post #: 49

3/23/2022 18:11:14

Biokirkby
Member

For now it does seem like DEX is too strong, with the exception of my view being that melee weapons tend to be better than ranged ones, but that won't matter in many cases. Based on wht Cray said, it looks like this won't be a permanent issue and they're looking to change that, and this is a good first step.

I think I agree with many of Sapphire's base statements, though I disagree with their conclusion. If mages with good attacks were an issue, so would be mages with high STR. The problem is that DEX provides more than strength, not the combination of DEX and INT specifically.

I think same applies with backlash: If backlash is too strong, that speaks to too much value placed on END or CHA (Or backlash itself) rather than DEX being made less important for accuracy.

Also, to be honest, I don't think increased SP regen is actually extreme. I just say it is due to the team's design priorities.

AQW

Post #: 50

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