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9/18/2023 19:23:26   
CH4OT1C!
Member

Backlash is a mess.

Let me preface this by stating that I realise Backlash a pretty controversial topic of discussion. However, with the long-awaited stat update now finally on the horizon, I think it's a conversation that needs to be had sooner rather than later. For quite some time now, there's been a small but growing number of players both supporting and requesting support for this nuanced playstyle. And, over the past couple of years, we've seen some of these requests being granted. This notably includes the recent Nemesis set and the Doomlight armaments (Quick Disclaimer: Doomlight has a substantial number of its own problems that need a completely separate thread to discuss, so I won't be focusing on it here). I would genuinely like to see this playstyle continue to flourish. With that said, we need to have a discussion about how Backlash is incredibly overpowered.

I mean that both mathematically and practically. It's so overpowered, in fact, it's downright unfair to traditional playstyles. Its problems ultimately boil down to two different things:
1). HP costs
2). Elecomp

Backlash as a HP Cost
For those that don't know, Backlash works by reflecting a portion of the monster's damage back at it. This means that Backlash is, at its core, a HP trade. Whether you argue that Backlash represents a HP cost proper or an effect that scales based on damage intake (a bit like how Alchemical Unity and similar items scale on damage dealt), the point is you "spend" HP and receive damage output. This matters because you're mobilising HP as a resource. Thus, to make things fair, it needs to conform to the modern HP cost system.

The problem with this? The damage dealt by Backlash is modified by Expected monster damage, which is calculated based upon the old HP cost system. In the old system, 151 HP is worth 100% Melee (i.e. the old Bloodmage cost), rather than the 348 HP it should be. I've discussed this issue at length in past GBIs on HP costs that have been both accepted and retroactively implemented (unfortunately, they've now been lost to time/archiving!). The upshot? Backlash is ~2.3 times more efficient as compared to the items and effects on the modern system, an efficiency ratio that's clearly unreasonable.

But it gets worse...

Elecomp
What does elecomp have to do with Backlash? Well, Backlash deals more damage if your enemy does too. In other words, it encourages and compensates players for breaking baseline assumptions and using an inappropriate armour to defend. It's essentially functioning as an in-built elecomp. Except, it's considerably better than elecomp. The elecomp mechanic has a series of checks and balances to prevent the final damage/cost modifier from becoming absolutely ridiculous. Without those checks and balances, the multiplier we would see at level 150 would be closer to 6-7 rather than the ~1.8 common to FO armours. Backlash doesn't do that. It has no checks and balances, and there is no internal limit. That ratio can effectively go as high as you like so long as you survive, meaning you can get to some really ridiculous numbers. For example, the weakest resistance for Doomlight at level 150 is 95%, where expected damage is calculated assuming the player has 14% resistances. This means the player is effectively taking...

quote:

95 / 14 = 6.78


x6.78 more damage than would normally be expected! All of this can be fuelled into backlash and that's before armour lean and other modifiers. This system is so unreasonable, in fact, the player could outstrip the modifier to elecomp by allowing the monster to strike against resistances of just 26% or more. Compounding that problem, just like other effects on the chopping block (most notably EO), backlash allows you to spend as much of your HP as you like in a single turn, just as long as you survive. Plus, it doesn't stack and instead manifests as separate instances, so it can circumvent boss damage caps unless they're extremely restrictive.

So, with all the above in mind, why isn't the incredible overpowered nature of Backlash discussed all that much? I think it's partially because the damage intake and output of Backlash occurs simultaneously. Normal HP trades/costs allow you to deal damage before your enemy has a chance to respond, whereas backlash applies them at the same time. This means the player dies first if both they and the monster 0 HP. It reduces player control and gives off an impression that the system is much fairer than it really is. However, even this argument is limited as you don't need to sit in your single weakest resistance to deal massive damage (or, indeed, anything over 26% at level 150) or could just use a revival mechanic (which are starting to become more common...).

Solutions
Personally, my stance on Backlash is the following:
1). You shouldn't be able to trade an entire resource bar for an effect on a single turn. This includes Backlash
2). If you go above expected intake you should expect to see diminishing returns with respect to damage output.
3). Backlash shouldn't have a bigger modifier than Elecomp because the latter is already incredibly powerful as is.

With those points in mind, my proposed solutions are:
  • Calculate Backlash based on the modern ratio system (i.e. 348 HP = 100% Melee) rather than expected damage. The expected damage output for backlash also needs to be unique to that item, being modified based on the percentage of damage reflected.
  • To solve the elecomp problem, I put forward two potential solutions:
    i). Cap the damage output of any single Backlash hit at ([Expected Output] / 2 * [Elecomp]), where 'Expected Output' refers to the number calculated in my first solution. The number needs dividing in two because Players/Monsters are expected to perform 2 hit attacks. This will make backlash more effective against monsters with high hit counts. The effect would be a flat cap to prevent abuse.
    ii). A soft damage cap above [Expected Output] as above with a harsh clawback. This wouldn't be a perfect solution as shenanigans could still ensue, but it would at least incorporate diminishing returns to limit the carnage.

    What I want to stress is that the above are potential solutions to the problem. They're pretty draconian solutions at that. They aren't the only solutions. My aim here is twofold:
    1). Highlight and spread awareness of just how problematic backlash really is on a mechanical level.
    2). To start a conversation around how best to resolve these problems.

    I personally don't think it's feasible to leave Backlash as it is (hence the GBI), so let's work together to try and find a compromise that works best for everyone.

    < Message edited by CH4OT1C! -- 9/21/2023 5:21:42 >
  • AQ  Post #: 1
    9/18/2023 19:43:58   
    Sapphire
    Member

    Backlash is certainly OP for farming, but I do think it is far more risky when questing. That is only a minor caveat. Backlash is so OP that despite spending money on 5 different doomlights, I find myself bored as all too often it's the ultimate bypasser of boss mechanics. I beat Elli with it just the other day. (along with a -cough- shenanigans)

    I know you said doomlights have there own issue and you claim that it needs perhaps a separate thread, but IMO, it *has* to be part of the greater discussion due to the fact players, such as myself, have spent so much on them. I have no doubt the doomlight sets are the single most popular $100 package, if not the outright most popular package AQ sells. Hundreds or thousands of them have been sold I'd guess. This means clearly, that I would suggest any changes to backlash status as a whole, although indirectly affecting doomlights, must be considered with one hand on the balance button but the other hand on the "we must be extremely delicate with this decision" button.


    Ultimately, the opinions of those who own backlash items, including doomlights, are likely the best valued opinions as they're the ones that use them day in and day out and know and understand actual gameplay nuances to be better able to speak about the pros/cons of using those items. I suspect there are several anecdotal stories of dieing while being a bit too careless with it. It doesn't make anyone invincible, it just so happens to be the best for a single boss fight.

    Post #: 2
    9/19/2023 7:05:38   
    LUPUL LUNATIC
    Member
     

    quote:

    Backlash as a HP Cost
    For those that don't know, Backlash works by reflecting a portion of the monster's damage back at it. This means that Backlash is, at its core, a HP trade. Whether you argue that Backlash represents a HP cost proper or an effect that scales based on damage intake (a bit like how Alchemical Unity and similar items scale on damage dealt), the point is you "spend" HP and receive damage output. This matters because you're mobilising HP as a resource. Thus, to make things fair, it needs to conform to the modern HP cost system.

    The problem with this? The damage dealt by Backlash is modified by Expected monster damage, which is calculated based upon the old HP cost system. In the old system, 151 HP is worth 100% Melee (i.e. the old Bloodmage cost), rather than the 348 HP it should be. I've discussed this issue at length in past GBIs on HP costs that have been both accepted and retroactively implemented (unfortunately, they've now been lost to time/archiving!). The upshot? Backlash is ~2.3 times more efficient as compared to the items and effects on the modern system, an efficiency ratio that's clearly unreasonable.

    But it gets worse...



    I cannot agree that Backlash should be a blood effect since HP costs are static not dynamic like in the case of Backlash. I do think the multiplier could maybe be lowered a little however.

    quote:

    Elecomp
    What does elecomp have to do with Backlash? Well, Backlash deals more damage if your enemy does too. In other words, it encourages and compensates players for breaking baseline assumptions and using an inappropriate armour to defend. It's essentially functioning as an in-built elecomp. Except, it's considerably better than elecomp. The elecomp mechanic has a series of checks and balances to prevent the final damage/cost modifier from becoming absolutely ridiculous. Without those checks and balances, the multiplier we would see at level 150 would be closer to 6-7 rather than the ~1.8 common to FO armours. Backlash doesn't do that. It has no checks and balances, and there is no internal limit. That ratio can effectively go as high as you like so long as you survive, meaning you can get to some really ridiculous numbers.


    With Backlash you are really not incentivised to use it with elementally appropriate gear because elemental Backlash does not get any Elecomp if it comes from Armor/Shield (see Nemesis/Frostwyrm armors) so if you are not getting a boost to that, the damage you deal is very little and by all things considered you really are MASSIVELY incentivised to go with offelement resistances against monsters. I think this is one of the biggest perks with Backlash that shapes its identity.

    quote:

    Backlash is certainly OP for farming, but I do think it is far more risky when questing. That is only a minor caveat. Backlash is so OP that despite spending money on 5 different doomlights, I find myself bored as all too often it's the ultimate bypasser of boss mechanics. I beat Elli with it just the other day. (along with a -cough- shenanigans)


    Yes Backlash is BiS for farming and i do really hope it will stay this way regardless of changes if any. If you do not know what to do with Backlash you may find its very risky but that is also part of the fun. You risk for a reward, sometimes you achieve it and youll be proud of it,sometimes you just have to reroll the fights,this is a risk versus reward unless you know what you are doing and know when to EleShied and when not to.
    AQ  Post #: 3
    9/19/2023 7:57:04   
    legendd
    Member
     

    I agree backlash is OP primarily because of 0 turn kill. But seems like the cutlass discussion is going to repeat itself.
    Post #: 4
    9/19/2023 13:32:01   
    Korriban Gaming
    Member

    I will not comment too much on what should be changed (if at all tbh). What I will say is that I do agree with Sapphire's points.

    While Backlash can be very strong and can be seen as a way to win extremely quickly, it can also result in extremely quick deaths if one is not careful about it. It's high risk and high reward for the most part. There are ways to mitigate the risks but the same can be said for just about any other item or mechanic.

    It is hard to talk about Backlash without talking about the Doomlight packages which are undoubtedly one of the best and perhaps most popular packages for that tier. This is not a small sum of money and many whales have at least 1, if not more of them. Some even have a full collection of them, easily equating to a couple hundred dollars. Any "big" changes needs to keep this in mind. It is an aspect that simply cannot be ignored. I think it is also important to get the opinions of those who own said package and whether or not they would be ok with such changes before proceeding to avoid another forest fire. Balance is one thing, business is another. One cannot exist without the other. Any changes will also affect potential future buyers and determine whether or not this package will continue to sell as well as it did in the past. I think it is quite clear that players do enjoy this level of power (to the extent that they are willing to drop $100 per set), this is something to keep in mind too.

    Of course, we are also seeing more Backlash items introduced for free players and I think quite a number of them enjoy it for its unique playstyle and power as well. They already don't enjoy the full power without the Doomlight packages, I am unsure if taking more away from them at this point would kill it before it even has a chance to develop further. I think Backlash for the most part is still in its infancy with how little items we have for it. I would like to see it continue to grow and this cannot be done if any changes makes it unappealing.

    Above all, this playstyle is also tied quite closely to stats so I would wait and see what we get for the stat revamp before deciding.

    As a fellow Doomlight package owner myself, I am not completely adverse to changes as long as these things are kept
    1. It retains its identity of being the top choice for farming
    2. Its power does not get significantly cut. The high risk high reward nature of this playstyle makes it fun. Changing it to a medium reward high risk playstyle would make it considerably less appealing

    Rather than outright nerfing the mechanic resulting in a lot of unhappiness, I think a better way would be to just introduce boss mechanics that counter it more often and/or more harshly. As what I always say, I'd rather not take something away but give the players something new

    < Message edited by Korriban Gaming -- 9/19/2023 13:37:43 >
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 5
    9/19/2023 14:18:26   
    Dardiel
    Member

    I would like to give my opinion, not because I think my opinion matters much here but because I think it's an important conversation that should eventually be tackled and as such I'd like to continue giving attention to it.

    At a minimum I agree that backlash should use the modern value of HP over the old one. Regardless of the debate over whether backlash is an HP "cost", it is still an effect that scales with an HP reduction.

    I have mixed feelings about the point regarding the backlash effects being separate hits - on the one hand I feel that individual items should have individual effects, but on the other hand to my knowledge all other items that apply the same status will stack (you can't get 5 burn items and apply 5 separate burns to bypass damage caps) so on the basis being a single status it seems perfectly reasonable for the backlash to stack.

    Regarding expected damage output, I feel that should be a larger matter to be tackled - at the moment it seems arbitrary whether/how effects are limited beyond paying for their effect (eg some effects having diminishing returns added as bubble wrap, charge items having charge caps despite their charges having a proper value) and I think that if there is no current rule regarding hard/soft caps on player output at a given cost then one should be made and implemented on backlash as an effect as well as any other current problems / future potential problems.
    Post #: 6
    9/19/2023 16:20:26   
    Sapphire
    Member

    I think backlash can be very OP, but I also think Part of the issue with backlash is I think the overall power gets skewed in people's minds because if you're going to run it, you're likely going to 1. Run END 2. Run multiple instances..ie pet/guest/shield/armor/misac (if you have them) and so it's not unlike any other stacking methods. If I ran a misc, weapon, pet, guest, and armor/spell that all did panic, I'd render the monster useless that way, too. It's the stack that's conflating the minds of many. Damage works the same way. You stack all sorts of damage enhancers to do crazy damage. It's then same thing.

    Now, having said all of that,

    IMO, the bigger issue here is END is OP. It's just not attractive despite this . Well, before the heal add-on and status resistance add on, it wasn't.

    I think my personal preference is to address END. If you lowered top side HP's down by about 1k..so 250 END is approx 4800-4900 HP but gave style bonuses back in..such as blocking (move from DEX), 10% better heal, and a few other style bonuses it may not only increase the risk of backlash, bu8t you wont have as many superlative (and often wasted) HP's and also by lowering the max HPO's at 250 END, you increase the likelihood you'd NEED to heal, thus taking more advantage of the bonuses.

    In addition to this, Dex does nothing for monsters once the battle begins. Maybe the auto hit feature I've pushed needs to be added game-wide (this addresses dodgelash more than this) but what if dex also added some monster only feature? Like maybe having dex super charges their SP attack? Dex needs to be addressed for monsters.

    By lowering HP at top end, and giving monsters some more stuff based on dex (since so many older monsters used old stat thinking), you might make backlashing a bit riskier without altering it directly.

    It's a much better approach

    Ultimately, I'd think waiting on the stat revamp and seeing what happens with that first will maybe help provide clarity on several things.

    < Message edited by Sapphire -- 9/19/2023 16:27:49 >
    Post #: 7
    9/19/2023 16:37:02   
    Aura Knight
    Member

    Backlash is fine. You're looking for problems where they don't exist. Leave it alone. If mobs one shot themselves, give them more health but the reflective damage of backlash is just right. I'd even accept an accuracy reduction to the effect. But further changes I'd dislike.

    Removed some irrelevant comments to Game Balance. Keep in mind that debates that happen in GBI should be of a higher standard than in General Discussion. More should be presented about why you think Backlash is acceptable. While things may get heated, please try to deal with the facts.

    Once again, you are free to express your opinions. Do not make provocative statements intended to needle any party and derail a valid discussion. ~Ward


    < Message edited by Ward_Point -- 9/19/2023 22:12:11 >
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 8
    9/19/2023 19:12:56   
    Sapphire
    Member

    Oh, and another issue with the "backlash build" IMO was that the stat revamp gave main stat so much BTH, the one huge downside pre-stat revamp to the backlash build (low BTH) isn't much of a disadvantage anymore.

    This is my reasoning for moving a bit of BTH away from mainstat back to luck (about 5)

    I know luck is now being looked at (maybe it isn't, and this is just bullhorn optics) to maybe make it unassumed with standards, but since this is all connected it's just another reason to look at all this big picture and not just backlash in some sort of stand-alone "issue", because really, it's not.
    Post #: 9
    9/19/2023 19:25:00   
    CH4OT1C!
    Member

    A running theme among three posters (@Sapphire, @Korriban Gaming and @LUPUL LUNATIC) is the notion that this discussion should include those individuals that have purchased backlash gear, with Doomlight frequently mentioned. Personally, I wish to avoid getting into this conversation too deeply as the points have been repeated countless times in similar discussions. With that said, to reiterate, I chose not to make Doomlight the primary focus of this GBI because, in addition to the Backlash status being overpowered. Doomlight exhibits numerous problems that require a completely separate GBI to resolve. Of course, that doesn't make it irrelevant to this thread, as it would be affected by any changes to the Backlash status. Ultimately, This thread makes clear that premium items remain subject to balance standards, but also that it would be contradictory to nerf mechanics or items to the point of being useless. While I disagree with @Korriban Gaming's take that "the top choice for farming" constitutes an identity, it would also make no sense to nerf Doomlight so severely that it becomes useless for that purpose. I want Doomlight to remain effective.

    A major point of contention comes from the risk involved in Backlash. These arguments fall under an issue I covered in my initial post, where backlash will fail if the player dies due to it simultaneously outputting power at the point of damage intake. I have already discussed some of the ways in which this problem is easily mitigated (as @Sapphire also rightly states). However, I'd also like to highlight another point made by @Korriban Gaming:

    quote:

    It's high risk and high reward for the most part. There are ways to mitigate the risks but the same can be said for just about any other item or mechanic.


    Yes. I completely agree. The player is able to mitigate other mechanics. However, this also raises a problem. If this is the same as other mechanics, why does Backlash allow you to mobilise effectively your entire HP stat minus one in a single turn, when other mechanics explicitly do not let you do this? EO is an exception, and is due to be capped for this very reason. PR was fixed precisely because it allowed player to mobilise resource bars without consequence. This is why I'm suggesting diminishing returns - it's unreasonable to prevent the player from taking more than an expected amount, but we can at least ensure they can't profit from mobilising the entire bar at once. Crucially, this would not turn backlash into high risk, medium reward. It would encourage the player to shift options so as to modulate there damage intake at a lower value, "spending" their HP more wisely. Medium risk, medium reward.

    What I'm suggesting here is pretty radical: dumping your entire HP bar at once, something Backlash players regularly do, is a problem. @LUPUL LUNATIC mentions it as "one of the biggest perks" of backlash. LUPUL is correct, but it's also incredibly unfair to allow Backlashers to do this when no other playstyle receives such a luxury. Hence my suggestion to provide diminishing returns. Of course, doing this opens new issues. LUPUL also rightly points out that elemental backlash receives no inbuilt "elecomp" if you use it versus a monster's base resistance. Some sort of compensation would, indeed, be in order if such changes were made.

    At this point, I think it's also worth bringing in another of @LUPUL LUNATIC's points around whether or not backlash counts as a HP cost. As in my original post and agreeing with @Dardiel, ultimately the perspective does not matter. Whether you consider it a direct HP cost or a SP-costing effect that scales based on damage intake, the effect mobilises player HP in the context of a resource and thus should follow the modern HP cost system.

    I don't really want to go into too many of the details of @Sapphire's points, principally because they mostly pertain to the stat update rather than backlash specifically. What matters is that Sapphire argues Backlash's problems are effectively solved by fixing player and END. In that regard, I must vehemently disagree. Reducing the potency of END would not resolve any of the key problems I raised around old HP costs or inbuilt elecomp to attacks. The only thing reducing base HP would achieve is making backlash riskier to employ. As is already discussed above and in my original post, this could still be easily circumvented. In the same vein, while the idea promoted @Korriban Gaming would have some marginal benefits, it would have little effect on the the real issues present with backlash (as, again, I mention in my original post).

    I recognise the requests to not significantly nerf Backlash. The issue, as detailed above, is that its problems are both severe and pervasive. A small bandaid cannot paper the cracks.



    AQ  Post #: 10
    9/19/2023 20:02:34   
    Mananite
    Member

    Echoing @CH4OT1C!s sentiment, Backlash is a mess. Nothing about the status is balanced, and it breaks basically every single established standard in the game. I'll avoid retreading his main talking points too much for the sake of brevity, but Backlash in its current state cannot exist (and arguably should have never been released to begin with, considering just how game-warping it is):

    1. Backlash works like Essence Orb (another game-warping item that everyone knows is due for a fix) insofar as it enables you to dump a hypothetically infinite amount of resources (in this case, HP) into an infinite amount of potential damage. No other mechanic or item exists right now that can say they do this.
    2. Backlash by design encourages the player to subvert the very standards the game is built upon, optimizing resistances to take as much damage as possible instead of taking as little, and dealing an equally excessive amount of damage back (which ties into my first point and what @CH4OT1C! has described in length).
    3. Backlash's implementation means every single source of Backlash is considered its own hit, completely bypassing damage caps, negating the one mechanic that was created specifically to stop bosses from being deleted in a single round.
    4. Backlash uses the old HP standard, giving it an arbitrary 2.3x multiplier to player Backlash, while simultaneously making monster Backlash a nonstatus by having their damage divided by 2.3. Granted, this is arguably more of a bug than anything, and fixing it would go a long way in reining in the status.
    5. Miscs that reduce damage taken by healing a percentage of damage taken instead of reducing it (IE Irt of Osiris, Hollow Dragon Amulet, and Shattered Horizon) synergize with Backlash in a way that's probably not intended, effectively "doubling" the amount of damage you can deal. Granted, those items have their own implementation issues brought about by modern changes, which while relevant to the issue at hand would be veering off-topic.

    On top of this, the sources of player Backlash (barring Doomlight, which requires an entirely separate GBI thread due to functionally having nothing but "free" effects due to how synergistic the penalties are for Backlash) should probably get a balance pass. Specifically, I feel that Dreadfiend (and its Ice clone) should not be funnelling all of its damage into Backlash; as it stands, it provides roughly half of a character's total Backlash damage by itself. No other status can say they have a Guest (or item) that provides such a disproportionate amount of power relative to what else is available.

    I feel Backlash needs the following changes to be properly "balanced":

    1. Update the HP cost to the modern standard, which would fix one of the biggest issues of Backlash, reining in player sources, and making monster sources a credible threat you have to genuinely account for.
    2. Make Backlash work like all other statuses in that it does one hit of damage total per element, instead of one per source (IE having Doomlight, Angra Linorm, and a Dreadfiend would deal one hit of Harm Backlash and one hit of Darkness Backlash, instead of three hits of Harm and one hit of Darkness). This would solve the damage cap bypass entirely, and make nuking with Backlash much riskier. Implementation would likely be similar to Dodgelash, where it calculates each time you're hit (rolling as necessary), then deal all the damage at the start of the player's turn.
    3. Introduce a soft damage cap on Backlash damage with massive clawback, with a potential hard cap on damage. At its core, Backlash is a status that scales with damage. Given that until recently, Imbues are a similarly game-warping effect that sometimes provides statuses that are damage scaled, a similar cap with clawback on Backlash seems natural. I feel the clawback would also have to be much harsher, given how much easier it is to take massive amounts of damage than deal it. A hard cap is also something I'm not entirely comfortable with, but just like the Imbue justification, modern status eaters are also hard capped at +200% of their base value. Not having a hard cap on something like Backlash would come off as an arbitrary exclusion from standards.
    4. Remove elemental Backlash entirely, making Backlash deal exclusively Harm damage. This is basically as "nuclear" as a fix can get without outright deleting the status, but given how much stronger elemental Backlash is (as shown by Dreadfiends), this would massively reduce the upper limit of what Backlash is capable of. Granted, the example I'm using is also extremely problematic as I outlined above, which is definitely introducing bias. But given just how much stronger elemental Backlash is compared to Harm Backlash mechanically, this is probably necessary.

    Even if my proposed changes all go through, I'm still not entirely convinced Backlash wouldn't still be a problematic status, and my measures are arguably more draconian and nuclear than what was proposed in the start of the thread. An alternative solution would be the actual nuclear option: deleting Backlash entirely, and replacing it with s similarly-themed effect.

    Instead of reflecting a percentage of damage taken (which is problematic enough to justify this GBI thread), Backlash would instead work like the one-off status of Caltrops, dealing a fixed amount of damage when hit, regardless of how much damage was taken. This would naturally operate like Dodgelash, where all the damage is dealt as once hit, instead of ticking once every single time damage is taken. Swapping Backlash over to work like Caltrops would solve most of the issues with Backlash while still retaining its flavour of a status that requires being hit:
    1. A flat amount of damage would remove the infinite damage scaling nature of Backlash.
    2. The player would no longer be incentivized to subvert balance standards by taking as much damage as possible without dying, as the damage reflected would be a static value, instead of being based entirely on how hard they get hit.
    3. Tying into point 2, no longer requiring "assumed damage" would also fix the issues of old HP standards completely skewing the math.
    4. Heal-style resistances Misc items would no longer provide an excessively large amount of "safe" damage by reducing the amount of effective damage taken without actually reducing the original amount.
    5. Changing it to a flat amount would also make monster Backlash much more threatening by punishing the use of hitcount to bypass damage caps (which ties into a broader balance issue that's outside of this thread's scope).

    Admittedly, converting Backlash to Caltrops might create its own set of balance nightmares, but given the genie of Backlash can no longer be contained, changing the status completely might be the "simplest" solution to the problem, especially since Backlash by design breaks just about every single assumption and balance standard the game has.
    Post #: 11
    9/19/2023 22:33:29   
    ruleandrew
    Member
     

    Backlash need the following changes:
    Damage compensation (backlash) hard cap for wearing inappropriate elemental gear is * (13 / 7).
    Backlash need to pay modern hp cost (348.44 hp is equal to 100 % melee).
    AQ  Post #: 12
    9/19/2023 22:33:59   
    Korriban Gaming
    Member

    quote:

    I want Doomlight to remain effective.

    The definition of effective definitely differs for each individual. I would also like to state that something being just "effective" isn't good enough for a $100 package. It has to be very good to justify the cost. Packages are here to make money, there's no mistaking that. While game balance may be important to you, you also cannot completely ignore the consequences it will have from the business aspect of things. This topic may be on Backlash but I don't think anyone can talk about Backlash without including Doomlight.

    quote:

    If this is the same as other mechanics, why does Backlash allow you to mobilise effectively your entire HP stat minus one in a single turn, when other mechanics explicitly do not let you do this? EO is an exception, and is due to be capped for this very reason.

    quote:

    It would encourage the player to shift options so as to modulate there damage intake at a lower value, "spending" their HP more wisely. Medium risk, medium reward.

    Oh but this is untrue, there are other balanced items that lets you mobilize your entire resource bar in a single turn. In fact, if you combo one item with many others, you can utilize your entire MP or SP bar in one turn as well. And this isn't a problem, it's just how offensive builds play compared to defensive builds. If we were to "cap" how much resources we are able to use per turn to funnel it into effects or damage, wouldn't that just be effectively turning every build FD? Offensive builds sacrifice all these resources to end the battles quicker.

    quote:

    What I'm suggesting here is pretty radical: dumping your entire HP bar at once, something Backlash players regularly do, is a problem. @LUPUL LUNATIC mentions it as "one of the biggest perks" of backlash. LUPUL is correct, but it's also incredibly unfair to allow Backlashers to do this when no other playstyle receives such a luxury. Hence my suggestion to provide diminishing returns.

    I would also like to point out that END is generally not used at endgame apart from Backlash builds. In fact, extra HP at the end of the battle is a waste of any points invested in END as the other stats allows you to fully utilize the points invested in them regardless of the battle duration. Thus, I think letting players dump their HP bar through the use of Backlash or any other future new mechanics is actually a good solution to make END become a more feasible stat.

    Making bosses counter Backlash harder or even coming up with an entirely new mechanic to counter Backlash more effectively isn't hard to do and would require about the same amount of effort to nerf the status as a whole. I do think this solution would result in a lot less...Backlash.

    quote:

    1. Backlash works like Essence Orb (another game-warping item that everyone knows is due for a fix) insofar as it enables you to dump a hypothetically infinite amount of resources (in this case, HP) into an infinite amount of potential damage. No other mechanic or item exists right now that can say they do this.

    It is not infinite, that's just false. Otherwise I could pretty much say the same for any other combo in the game.

    quote:

    2. Backlash by design encourages the player to subvert the very standards the game is built upon, optimizing resistances to take as much damage as possible instead of taking as little, and dealing an equally excessive amount of damage back (which ties into my first point and what @CH4OT1C! has described in length).

    But this is what makes it unique and fun isn't it? To have eveything conform to whatever base assumptions would stifle alot of creativity in item design and personally I like unique effects.

    quote:

    Specifically, I feel that Dreadfiend (and its Ice clone) should not be funnelling all of its damage into Backlash; as it stands, it provides roughly half of a character's total Backlash damage by itself. No other status can say they have a Guest (or item) that provides such a disproportionate amount of power relative to what else is available.

    That's just how min-maxing is nowadays to get the best possible item. The game has long evolved from small values. I think it's time we embrace lrger amounts of min-maxing. It's just natural power creep. I don't think anyone would trade 5% damage for 5% Backlash.

    Your proposed solutions are all too radical and I don't support any of them.

    Overall, I think there are more pressing stuff that needs to be done in the game as opposed to "fixing" this. For the most part, the "problems" with this are largely limited to those who actually own Doomlight or use the playstyle which is still a vey small number. It doesn't affect anyone else not using the playstyle. It would also be unfair for players currently using said playstyle just to cater to those who don't even use the playstyle to begin with because it's "too good" for them. As such, I think it would be better for staff to finish up the other requests, revamps and updates that are already long overdue before even attempting to look at this newly brought up issue. (Stat revamp, Devoured Earth Shield, Mermazon set, 2nd Dono set, Void revamp, Archmage class etc.)

    < Message edited by Korriban Gaming -- 9/19/2023 22:44:14 >
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 13
    9/19/2023 22:56:32   
    Aura Knight
    Member

    Right so once more my lack of proper understanding led me to the wrong conclusion. I was informed now that the output from the backlash effect far exceeds the input of the damage taken and as fun as it is to win with it there is unfairness. If it were reversed I'd be complaining.

    I'm gonna reference an effect from another game which works like backlash and that is Vengeance from osrs or rs3 i think too. Damage you take is reflected 80% I believe. If AQ offers similar power to the existing backlash effect would that offer more fairness?
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 14
    9/20/2023 1:27:44   
    J9408
    Member

    ^
    quote:

    I'm gonna reference an effect from another game which works like backlash and that is Vengeance from osrs or rs3 i think too. Damage you take is reflected 80% I believe. If AQ offers similar power to the existing backlash effect would that offer more fairness?


    That sounds great! A small adjustment, it is not as extreme as the other suggestions here.

    < Message edited by J9408 -- 9/20/2023 1:32:47 >
    Post #: 15
    9/20/2023 1:47:51   
    Primate Murder
    Member

    I knew Backlash was problematic, but I didn't realize just how much.

    I don't often agree with Chaotic, but in this matter, I think he's absolutely right. There needs to be a cap of sorts, an 'expected monster damage', with diminishing returns whenever your Backlash exceeds it. That's how most items based on damage dealt work in the game, and I see no reason why it should work otherwise just because the damage is dealt by monster instead of player.
    AQ DF  Post #: 16
    9/20/2023 4:21:29   
    ruleandrew
    Member
     

    One possible solution to backlash
    [character resistance] / [expected character resistance] = A
    If A is less or equal to 13 / 7 then backlash damage to monster is equal to damage character received.
    Otherwise backlash damage to monster is [damage character received] * [13 / 7] * [expected character resistance] / [character resistance].
    AQ  Post #: 17
    9/20/2023 7:05:54   
    legendd
    Member
     

    Agree with Aura Knight.

    AQ in a nutshell:- You want to win battles, yet you want to drag and make them harder to win. I think this is a good high level summary of AQ's direction.

    quote:

    You're looking for problems where they don't exist.
    Post #: 18
    9/20/2023 12:07:51   
    Aura Knight
    Member

    Well it is what it is. I'll predict there's a repeat later too when the next powerful strategy appears. Still I'll move on to offer another solution.

    This one will take inspiration from another interaction in this game. Pet/Guest damage is reduced if player turn gets skipped. Not too sure of the numbers but it might be 40% of their original damage. Maybe backlash can be similar at its base. Then with added effects it will max to become a 1:1 ratio.

    One other thing to look at is how boosts to the effect work. I prefer whichever gets you the bigger number but for that I'd choose to forsake balance in favor of fun. This is something I'll likely always desire yet I'm not opposed to reasonable changes that still let me have a decent time while keeping others pleased too.
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 19
    9/20/2023 17:37:34   
    Sapphire
    Member

    After some review of the discussion at hand and some thoughts put out by several folks, I think my final landing spot on this specific discussion is as follows:

    First and foremost, I have always said backlash felt OP and backlash from doomlights specifically felt OP. But I also understand that players are paying for that power. So I feel as though a pandora's box was opened that mostly cannot and should not be addressed. It is not Ok to take players money and then later make wholesale changes to either the item or indirectly altering it due to changing a feature it has. The somewhat draconian take on what some are offering as to the "fix" I think would not go over well, and could further provide distrust on future high dollar packages and other premium content. For this reason, I do not think it is wise to go the draconian route. But I do recognize a couple of things:

    1. Backlash is crazy strong
    2. There is precedent in how staff deals with OP things in the past, and I think that is the path forward for compromise.


    Firstly, I do not think that using "modern HP cost " standards applies here apples to apples. Other HP cost items is a means to pay for stuff, and HP cost generally translates to more power compared to normal means, such as damage, SP, MP, etc. In the case of backlash, the HP cost is essentially a scaling cost. It is tied to the status itself, and not some basic cost as with something like bloodmage/bloodzerker. The more HP's you take in, the more should be output. It's very risky. I don't see these comparisons as being apples to apples despite the idea it somehow is. It's just not.

    Secondly, the reality is , is that we can go back to a theme I keep talking about. In my opinion, monsters are just not very strong in general. They just don't threaten to kill you. Dexterity does nothing for them in most cases once the battle begins. In my opinion, Dex should be enhancing monsters somehow. Maybe my auto hit idea should be on the table. Maybe a power boost to SP skills based on dex should be on the table. Maybe a dex-based initiative similar to what H series has, where that first turn is super strong, so backlashing on that first turn is more of a risk.

    Lastly, I think as a compromise I think 2 things need to occur, and only these 2 things.

    1. Revisit guests and pets that give backlash. Make it so they cannot provide the backlash status on turn 1 if you lose initiative. This should greatly limit O-hit KO's. Every other pet/guest in the game needs to take a turn to provide it's effect, or nearly all of them do. Maybe off the top of my head, Legion Fenrir is another that implements it's effect without a turn going and would need changed. If you lose initiative, Dread Fiend/EoC/Fan cameo and Angra cannot and should not provide backlash until after you take your first turn. In addition to this, any monster effect that paralyzes pet/guest will stop the backlash effect from these pets and guests.

    2. This to me is the big one, but it's the big compromise. Currently, backlash hits per monster hit, per item. This means if I have a doomlight armor, doomlight shield, a backlash pet and guest, and a backlash misc, that's 5 sources of backlash (Actually it's 6 with Nemesis)

    If the monster lands a hit, that's 5 immediate individual hits of damage. If the monster is a 4 hit monster, that's now 20 individual hits . The massive implication here is this essentially is a damage cap bypasser.

    So, with the precedent of dealing with OP mechanics inside the game, staff have implemented what some may call "band aids" with boss mechanics to deal with them. Some may dislike this approach, but IMO, it's best to go this route because it doesn't really "mess with" those who paid for premium packages nearly as much.

    So you change backlash to work more like dodgelash. You combine the total damage per item and roll it into a single damage hit. So a monster with a 4 hit attack no longer is being hit 20 individual times, it's being hit 5 times. (In my example of armor, shield, pet, guest, misc) This means versus non bosses, backlash damage is unchanged, except now the pet/guest cannot backlash on turn 1 when you lose initiative. However, versus bosses, damage caps mitigate the sheer effectiveness by quite a bit, just like everything else in the game.

    This is the fairest and most reasonable compromise you can have. Easily.

    And I won't change my mind on it.

    < Message edited by Sapphire -- 9/21/2023 1:30:53 >
    Post #: 20
    9/21/2023 16:35:40   
    Dardiel
    Member

    For those that oppose treating backlash as an effect that scales with HP lost the same way other HP->Outcome effects do, I would imagine that it's a good idea to propose what the numbers should be based on - if the argument is that it shouldn't be treated as a cost and therefore shouldn't use the value of HP then that means its current valuation (outdated value of HP cost) is just as wrong or more wrong than the suggested fix of using modern HP value. If there's also going to be the argument that real money was spent on the items then I imagine that a conversion from real money to melee % would also be useful for explaining the optimal balance.

    If a conversion from dollars to melee is found then this next point is unneeded, but I believe I'd seen before something along the lines of "real money is not used as a factor for balance" - if that's the case, then it might be worth considering the implications of the argument that items connected to real money shouldn't be balanced. If the devs are seeking to make items balanced then it means they never get to fix broken items and would therefore be motivated to stick to "safe" content that they're confident won't need fixing, and if they plan on making challenging fights then they have to account for a theoretically ever-increasing list of broken & immune-to-fixes items (which would give extra motivation to make sure all future real-money items are tame and non-experimental, to keep the list small for as long as possible).
    Post #: 21
    9/21/2023 21:19:42   
    Grace Xisthrith
    Member
     

    A lot's been said, I was thinking about it and debating a bit when I had an idea.
    Currently, backlash effects don't receive elecomp, because they're based on incoming damage, and it would be double dipping (see Kam's post in Nemesis Armor change I believe).
    Backlash ATM is undoubtedly extremely powerful, I'd say mostly from the 2.3x multiplier that a community member recently publicized the details of, ty for that btw :)
    Let's say we cut out that 2.3x multiplier, because it's debatably, a rather silly boost in power.
    This would heavily nerf current backlash farming methods, along with backlash in general. I think I've discovered a potential workaround to still make backlash very desireable, but also balanced.

    1: Remove the 2.3x multiplier. (if this was done for monsters in reverse, there would have to be some manual editing of a variety of bosses who were balanced and playtested with old backlash values in mind)

    2: Add a clawback to backlash based off expected incoming damage. The monster has an expected damage per turn, lets say backlash is soft capped at returning double expected damage through its own instance of multiplier (monster deals 100 damage expected, 25% backlash effect soft caps at 50), and add a clawback to any damage past that (let's say .5, because .25 is very steep and .75 isn't steep at all, but I don't balance games idk). So, for example, you're fighting a fire monster in ice doomlight. You take ~6.7x more than expected damage (ty chaotic for math), and you have a 25% backlash effect. ~1/3 (2/6.7) of that damage is returned via backlash unchanged. The rest is given a clawback, which greatly reduces its overkill damage that currently exists when you're at 95% resistance in a doomlight armor (or nemesis). This would make it so backlash wouldn't motivate you to sit in completely off resistances. --- A few things, why 2x expected damage? Hitcount based effects like Geographer's Hammer (picked a new item no real reason), invest X percent melee, expecting the player to deal 2 hits. If you deal more, it's capped at 2x percent melee output at 4 hits. Why not do the same with backlash.

    3: Give backlash elecomp when appropriate. With these changes, backlash is no longer motivated by dramatically increasing damage, so elecomp is no longer double dipping. You could make an argument that it still is, and if you feel strongly about it, please do. Doomlights (for example) have ~1.8 elecomp, so they'd be getting a fat multiplier on their damage, and the player would be taking less damage.

    Implications: Backlash in opposite resists would be taking a huge power cut. 6.7 x 2.3 x backlash % (harm) compared to ~2 x 1.8 x backlash % (elemental). Backlash in ~30% resists however: ~2 (30/15, rough estimate of expected resistances) x 2.3 x backlash % (harm). New model: ~2 x 1.8 x backlash % (elemental). All of a sudden, "efficient" (sub 40% resists) is almost at its original power level. Keep in mind you'd stop taking an always useful penalty for harm, and it gets even closer. This would make a backlash nerf not nearly as bad for doomlight, IMO.

    Considerations I can't be bothered to include:
    -Sometimes, a majority of backlash damage comes from dreadfiends. These wouldn't get elecomp, so that would just be a /2.3 power cut. Follows balance, but would feel bad in game.
    -Backlash racks up hitcount like crazy: I think this is a problem with staff not implementing enough Plot armor (damage cap per turn on Entropy) after the one time they made it, not an issue with backlash. An easy counterargument is that so many bosses have soft damage caps, I acknowledge that
    -I've never actually tryharded playing backlash, so I have limited perspective on how it all works
    -This would still heavily nerf backlash farming, especially f2p with Angra and EOC
    -Omni potency should work on backlash, unrelated to everything else
    AQ  Post #: 22
    9/22/2023 7:36:51   
    CH4OT1C!
    Member

    @Grace Xisthrith: It seems we both agree that some form of soft cap as a potential solution, as I mentioned in my previous post (it's also worth mentioning @Primate Murder's support for this system too):

    quote:

    ii). A soft damage cap above [Expected Output] as above with a harsh clawback. This wouldn't be a perfect solution as shenanigans could still ensue, but it would at least incorporate diminishing returns to limit the carnage.


    I considered the point at which the cap should start to apply for quite some time. I understand where you're coming from on having it apply from double expected output, given the "assumed two hits per turn" precedent. I'd personally consider it inappropriate on two counts...
    i). This is a status, applied in addition to any standard player attack. The two hit assumption therefore isn't really appropriate in this scenario
    ii). It breaks precedent (other caps start at expected damage) and would allow Backlash to remain unrestricted at a cap above the relative cap of other items of this type, which feels unfair.

    I do, however, have a compromise. The cap could remain at expected damage, but need not be extremely harsh. While I agree that the 0.75 isn't steep enough (those other damage scaling effects need looking at...), this could represent an excellent opportunity to set a new precedent where that clawback should be. It's also a good opportunity to look at expected damage thresholds, as I've long considered these need to be specific to the item in question. For example, compare two backlashes, one reflecting 20% damage after calculation, the other 80%. If both are capped relative to expected damage, the former status can continue unrestricted for far longer than the latter, despite there being no cost (or indeed compensation) to balance the books. A fairer system would be to have the cap point start at [Expected Damage] * [Backlash %]. While this is extra mathematical work, this same basic strategy is widely applicable to other effects too (e.g., Alchemical Unity).

    As you rightly state, such changes would be a huge nerf and would mostly deal with the Elecomp problem. In that scenario, I would be much minded to give Elecomps to elemental backlash tied to certain defensive items like the Nemesis set (thereby also addressing the concerns raised by @LUPUL LUNATIC).

    @Aura Knight: I'm not entirely sure how your solution addresses Backlash's problems with Elecomp and full mobilisation. I assume this is me overlooking a point, but would you mind elaborating so I can understand how it fixes the problem?

    @ruleandrew:
    quote:


    [character resistance] / [expected character resistance] = A
    If A is less or equal to 13 / 7 then backlash damage to monster is equal to damage character received.
    Otherwise backlash damage to monster is [damage character received] * [13 / 7] * [expected character resistance] / [character resistance].

    This effectively crystallises into mechanics one of my other solutions to the problem. 13/7 is 1.857, the same as FO Elecomp at maximum. I would personally prefer to use neutral elecomp under this framework so as to avoid additional <FO shenanigans, but this is also definition an option to consider.

    @Korriban Gaming:
    I don't wish to spend much time on this as points have been made in previous discussions, but nonetheless:
  • "Remaining Effective" is no more subjective than the "significantly cut" as referenced in your first post. I have further elaborated on the numerous ways that Backlash is overpowered relative to other competitive effects, which apply within the context of my statement around Backlash remaining effective. It would be beneficial if you could also elaborate what you would consider to represent a significant cut so as to clarify where all parties stand on this topic relative to each other.
  • You note there are other singular balanced items that allow the player to mobilise their entire resource bar in one turn, but don't reference any. It would be useful to consider these items. As noted, I can think of items in the last few years e.g., Discount Mogloween candy bag that have been explicitly updated to prevent the mobilisation of entire resource bars in a single turn, as well as others e.g., Purple Rain to prevent the easy exploitation of such systems. It's also well known that other items of this type e.g., Essence Orb are known to be receiving nerfs (Pixel Ether I presume would also fall into this category should any clone be made). There certainly have been recent items that allow you mobilise your entire SP/MP bar, like Drop the B-Bomb, but you'll note that these too are capped. Even if you can spend it all, you can't mobilise it all. It's true that multiple items can be combined to mobilise resource bars in one turn, but this is a separate matter complicated by the need to reward players for using items in combination (not that these shouldn't also be questioned and considered.
  • While having additional END is certainly helpful for backlash strategies that involve mobilising your HP recklessly for large damage returns, I don't believe backlash should be retained in an absurdly overpowered state simply to justify the use of END at endgame. I certainly believe the latter should have a reason for use, but that's something that can be addressed in the stat update rather than by the backlash status solely.

    < Message edited by CH4OT1C! -- 9/22/2023 10:32:03 >
  • AQ  Post #: 23
    9/22/2023 10:23:24   
    Aura Knight
    Member

    quote:

    @Aura Knight: I'm not entirely sure how your solution addresses Backlash' problems with Elecomp and full mobilisation. I assume this is me overlooking a point, but would you mind elaborating so I can understand how it fixes the problem?


    If the concern is backlash damage being too high, the solution is adding a cap to it determined mostly by the incoming damage.
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 24
    9/22/2023 11:30:01   
    Korriban Gaming
    Member

    Personally I would still prefer if monsters (specifically bosses) were made to counter Backlash more effectively rather than actually taking something away from the current Backlash playstyle. My proposal would be to give bosses a new status that specifically reduces Backlash damage taken by the monster by X%. Sorta like a Choke/Panic effect. This achieves 3 things
    1. You avoid the riots from people who've spent a ton of money as well as casual players who like the playstyle. Players still get to enjoy their multiple hits etc. but obviously overall damage from the Backlash source would still be reduced by a substantial amount depending on what you want your value of X to be. You are then forced to spend your HP more wisely as you're still taking the same amount of damage but just outputting less
    2. Backlash still remains a super effective and top tier strategy against regular mobs and farming
    3. By tagetting Backlash status specifically, you do not intentionally or unintentionally affect other playstyles when it comes to bossing

    That being said, out of all the other suggestions I've seen, I think I prefer the ones by @Sapphire the most
    quote:

    1. Revisit guests and pets that give backlash. Make it so they cannot provide the backlash status on turn 1 if you lose initiative. This should greatly limit O-hit KO's. Every other pet/guest in the game needs to take a turn to provide it's effect, or nearly all of them do. Maybe off the top of my head, Legion Fenrir is another that implements it's effect without a turn going and would need changed. If you lose initiative, Dread Fiend/EoC/Fan cameo and Angra cannot and should not provide backlash until after you take your first turn. In addition to this, any monster effect that paralyzes pet/guest will stop the backlash effect from these pets and guests.

    2. This to me is the big one, but it's the big compromise. Currently, backlash hits per monster hit, per item. This means if I have a doomlight armor, doomlight shield, a backlash pet and guest, and a backlash misc, that's 5 sources of backlash (Actually it's 6 with Nemesis)

    If the monster lands a hit, that's 5 immediate individual hits of damage. If the monster is a 4 hit monster, that's now 20 individual hits . The massive implication here is this essentially is a damage cap bypasser.

    So, with the precedent of dealing with OP mechanics inside the game, staff have implemented what some may call "band aids" with boss mechanics to deal with them. Some may dislike this approach, but IMO, it's best to go this route because it doesn't really "mess with" those who paid for premium packages nearly as much.

    So you change backlash to work more like dodgelash. You combine the total damage per item and roll it into a single damage hit. So a monster with a 4 hit attack no longer is being hit 20 individual times, it's being hit 5 times. (In my example of armor, shield, pet, guest, misc) This means versus non bosses, backlash damage is unchanged, except now the pet/guest cannot backlash on turn 1 when you lose initiative. However, versus bosses, damage caps mitigate the sheer effectiveness by quite a bit, just like everything else in the game.

    These changes still reduce the power of Backlash but by a very reasonable and palatable amount as compared to the other more draconian suggestions brought up here. To me, this is an acceptable middle ground though some might think it's not enough. You can't and shouldn't overdo it, we don't need another case of PR

    @Chaotic
    quote:

    "Remaining Effective" is no more subjective than the "significantly cut" as referenced in your first post. I have further elaborated on the numerous ways that Backlash is overpowered relative to other competitive effects, which apply within the context of my statement around Backlash remaining effective. It would be beneficial if you could also elaborate what you would consider to represent a significant cut so as to clarify where all parties stand on this topic relative to each other.

    I personally have a few criterias for this and these are obviously subjective to my own tastes. The damage output can't be reduced to a measly few hundred per turn, I think anything less than ~1.5k range might be too much for my liking. Combining this with HP cost, I think the modern HP costs is a bit too high at almost double or triple of what we currently have. And combine this with capping number of hits assuming we get a mish mash of everything, I think it shouldn't be capped at only a single hit but at least 2-3.

    quote:

    You note there are other singular balanced items that allow the player to mobilise their entire resource bar in one turn, but don't reference any. It would be useful to consider these items. As noted, I can think of items in the last few years e.g., Discount Mogloween candy bag that have been explicitly updated to prevent the mobilisation of entire resource bars in a single turn, as well as others e.g., Purple Rain to prevent the easy exploitation of such systems. It's also well known that other items of this type e.g., Essence Orb are known to be receiving nerfs (Pixel Ether I presume would also fall into this category should any clone be made). There certainly have been recent items that allow you mobilise your entire SP/MP bar, like Drop the B-Bomb, but you'll note that these too are capped. Even if you can spend it all, you can't mobilise it all. It's true that multiple items can be combined to mobilise resource bars in one turn, but this is a separate matter complicated by the need to reward players for using items in combination (not that these shouldn't also be questioned and considered.

    Basically any QC item or combination of it fits the bill. I agree with the fact that you need a combination of items to pull this off. But I think the same can be said for an effective Backlash build. You'll need more than a single piece of equipment to make Backlash work great.
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 25
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