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Adventurer ---> Ultra!!!Guardian/AWE no drops

 
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11/14/2023 18:04:16   
Bannished Rogue
Member


Reposting this specific portion that was attached to the thread that was moved because:
quote:

Thread moved as human "subrace" isn't a thing. Skills could potentially be explored and suggested.
Despite me saying that it is neither my idea nor proposal that pure human is/be a subrace and/nor give it skills multiple times..

However that last thread became focused on the comparison to the subrace armors which ignored the first portion that I had mentioned. While they initially could have been their own seperate threads, seperating something referring to the same item(s) seemed redundant.
Since the other thread focuses on the second part pretty much exclusively I am reposting this here to seperate them.



Pay-to-win- Deft Ultra!!!Guardian Leathers (unaligned):
• MRM = 48/52/48
• Elemental modifier (all elements) = 62%

Free-to-play- Leathers Armor (unaligned):
• MRM = 50/50/50
• Elemental modifier (all elements) = 62%

Shouldn't even just the guardian armor be better than the starting armor, let alone the:
• buffed up ultraguardian armor
• one with the GGB !!! further buff???
• one owned by an x-guardian

Additionally, ultra!!!guardian seems to also be imbalanced by 1 MRM.

quote:

The Adventurer no-drops (which include the leathers you raised here but also the Steel plate and Mage Robes) scale to player level and gain a Mastercraft (MC) bonus if they're a Guardian. The standard Ultraguardian/Awe no-drops scale to your level -5 and the !!! versions scale to your level. This means, as you're a Guardian, the Adventurer and Ultra!!!Guardian Leathers you're discussing here are at the same power level.

This essentially means that when upgrading from non-guardian to guardian, the no-drop gets weaker... Therein lies the imbalance.



Proposed way forward:
Adventurer already scales to player lvl + MC if guardian, therefore:
• Adventurer < guardian
--- Scale to player lvl or [plyr lvl +5] + MC (Currently doesn't have MC)
• Guardian < ultraguardian
--- Scale to [player lvl +10] + MC (Already has MC bonus)
• Ultraguardian < ultra!!!guardian
--- Scale to [player level +15] + MC (Already has MC bonus)

Also fix MRM imbalance.

< Message edited by Bannished Rogue -- 11/14/2023 20:46:24 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 1
11/15/2023 10:28:38   
Sapphire
Member

GBI is addressing an item(s) or interaction between item(s) that already exist in the game. What you're essentially doing is making a suggestion based on lack of content and modifying other items due to lack of content. It doesn't really matter that anyone misunderstands that you're not suggesting making a Human subrace. You're still essentially making a suggestion to buff something , and doing so in a way that's never been done before..outside of any standards that exist. It's a suggestion regardless of how you slice this. That's why Anim moved it, at the end of the day. That's my opinion.
Post #: 2
11/15/2023 10:54:20   
dizzle
Member
 

I think the goal was to 1) address and 2) discuss the imbalance between no drops for different types of players. Proposing a fix I assume was just a good faith attempt at getting the discussion going. It is indeed a GBI, no doubt about it. Even if it seems insignificant. The only part that is questionable I guess is the “proposed way forward” bit but that’s a technicality and semantic. I pretty much agree with sapphires post on the last thread - I think this issue is rather marginal and there’s bigger fish to fry but it is an issue nonetheless.
AQ  Post #: 3
11/15/2023 12:14:47   
CH4OT1C!
Member

I think it's fair to say that Awe, Guardian, and UltraGuardian all need some TLC. Many individuals have echoed that sentiment for a number of years now.

However, that in itself isn't a GBI. It's worth noting:
  • As mentioned in a prior post, the Adventurer no-drops scale differently depending on whether the player is an Adventurer or Guardian. Guardian scaling makes these items competitive with the Guardian equivalent. You also lose the MC bonus if you're an Adventurer.
  • AQ is not inherently pay-to-win and premium gear remains subject to item standards. The UltraGuardian!!! and Adventurer no-drops scale to the same level if you're a Guardian, and thus result in similar MRM and resistance spreads.

    There is an issue surrounding the Awe!!! upgrade. Due to how Guardian, UltraGuardian and Awe used to scale (old standards), the upgrade removes the 5 level scaling penalty associated with these armours rather than providing a bonus in its own right. This is something that should be addressed when the no-drops are updated.

    As far as the proposed solutions:
  • When wielded by an Adventurer, the armour scales to [PlayerLvl - 10] and has no MC. I see no issue with the current system, as it properly differentiates Adventurer from Guardian.
  • There are no additional hoops between Guardian and UltraGuardian beyond a (borderline unplayable) quest. There is precedent for easy access items lacking a MC, with quest rewards gaining one. Thus, Guardian could be scaled to PlayerLvl and UltraGuardian PlayerLvl, as well as gaining a MC. In addition, players could also retain the +3 Level Guardian bonus associated with Guardian items (total = [PlayerLvl + 3], plus MC effect). I see no justification for a +10 bonus.
  • The Awe!!! upgrade could constitute the value of +5 Levels as it currently does, for a total of [PlayerLvl + 3 + 5] plus MC if Awe/Ultra. I see neither precedent nor justification for +15.

    In my opinion, I wouldn't consider this remotely to be a top priority fix. There are plenty of other more pressing concerns associated with balance (notably the stat revamp).

    < Message edited by CH4OT1C! -- 11/15/2023 17:59:46 >
  • AQ  Post #: 4
    11/15/2023 20:41:37   
    Bannished Rogue
    Member


    quote:

    What you're essentially doing is making a suggestion based on lack of content and modifying other items due to lack of content. It doesn't really matter that anyone misunderstands that you're not suggesting making a Human subrace. You're still essentially making a suggestion to buff something , and doing so in a way that's never been done before..outside of any standards that exist. It's a suggestion regardless of how you slice this. That's why Anim moved it, at the end of the day. That's my opinion.

    Perhaps you would be actually correct if both misunderstanding and a strawman logical fallacy werent fundamental to your opinion self admittingly. However, those opinions are off-topic in this thread. So I will refrain from discussing more indepth until that thread is unlocked and will continue in the appropriate thread.



    quote:

    I think the goal was to 1) address and 2) discuss the imbalance between no drops for different types of players. Proposing a fix I assume was just a good faith attempt at getting the discussion going. It is indeed a GBI, no doubt about it. Even if it seems insignificant. The only part that is questionable I guess is the “proposed way forward” bit but that’s a technicality and semantic. I pretty much agree with sapphires post on the last thread - I think this issue is rather marginal and there’s bigger fish to fry but it is an issue nonetheless.

    By far the most correct thing anyone else has said. However, I am not going to argue the priority of such an issue, just simply addressing it.



    quote:

    • As mentioned in a prior post, the Adventurer no-drops scale differently depending on whether the player is an Adventurer or Guardian. Guardian scaling makes these items competitive with the Guardian equivalent. You also lose the MC bonus if you're an Adventurer.

    This argument doesn't make sense unless guardianship is assumed since (at least to my knoweldge), non-guardians don't have access to guardian and ultraguardian sets.
    Therefore assuming the guardianship, the Adventurer armor scales to Ultra!!!Guardian and completely outperforms Guardian and non-"!!!" UltraGuardian, when it should be at most equal to guardian so that it is on theme with, "makes these items competitive with the Guardian equivalent".

    quote:

    • AQ is not inherently pay-to-win and premium gear remains subject to item standards. The UltraGuardian!!! and Adventurer no-drops scale to the same level if you're a Guardian, and thus result in similar MRM and resistance spreads.

    Because of this regular guardian is underpowered. Assuming player has not already gotten:
    • "!!!" version
    • ultra/AWE upgrades
    Obtaining guardianship decreases armor Level scaling.

    quote:

    As far as the proposed solutions:

    .....

    • There are no additional hoops between Guardian and UltraGuardian beyond a (borderline unplayable) quest. There is precedent for easy access items lacking a MC, with quest rewards gaining one. Thus, Guardian could be scaled to PlayerLvl and UltraGuardian PlayerLvl, as well as gaining a MC. In addition, players could also retain the +3 Level Guardian bonus associated with Guardian items (total = [PlayerLvl + 3], plus MC effect). I see no justification for a +10 bonus.

    Per AQ Encyclopedia:
    quote:

    Power level: CharacterLevel-10 (For Adventurers), CharacterLevel & Mastercrafted (For Guardians)
    Guardian using Adventurer armor gets MC bonus as mentioned; therefore if we're were to just make guardian armor scale to PlayerLvl without MC, it would still be transitioning to an underpowered armor perpetuating the imbalance..
    Subsequently UltraGuardian would need more than just scale to PlayerLvl & MC because then it is equal to both Adventurer an actually correct Guardian.

    quote:

    • The Awe!!! upgrade could constitute the value of +5 Levels as it currently does, for a total of [PlayerLvl + 3 + 5] plus MC if Awe/Ultra. I see neither precedent nor justification for +15

    Perhaps it isnt an entire +15, but keep in mind that both your last mentioned ultraguardian would need to be further buffed to keep from being equivalent with Adventurer and guardian. Additionally, even currently as it stands, Ultra!!!Guardian is underpowered by 1 MRM, so UltraGuardian would have to exceed even what Ultra!!!Guardian currently is.

    < Message edited by Bannished Rogue -- 11/15/2023 20:54:11 >
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 5
    11/15/2023 21:17:21   
    CH4OT1C!
    Member

    Non-Guardians lacking access to Guardian equipment is irrelevant for balance. However, you make a good point that it would be inconsistent to deny Guardian a Mastercraft if it is provided for them on the Adventurer no-drops. In addition to providing extra power, I see two other simple solutions
    1). Having both Guardian and UG/Awe Mastercrafted. Justified by them being different armours with different benefits
    2). Remove the MC bonus for Guardians on Adventurer no-drops. This issue is less one of absolute power and more one of consistency. As long as either both provide or deny the benefit, all is well.

    A simple solution for the power bonus would be *1.05 damage, should that route be chosen. Either way, I maintain it shouldn't be a high priority; the missing %Melee being discussed here is comparatively low and can be remedied simply by switching no-drop.



    < Message edited by CH4OT1C! -- 11/15/2023 21:20:57 >
    AQ  Post #: 6
    11/18/2023 19:06:13   
    Bannished Rogue
    Member


    Considering:
    quote:

    No drop gear could definitely use a pass, both due to its own issues and powercreep over time

    • I believe option 2 would be counter productive considering it falls within the scope of No drop armors.
    • I belive option 1 to be necessary but also that UG and AWE need to be scaled up from Guardian and not just treated like a different set. I'm the same way guardian completely replaces Adventurer sets as thebstandard no drop when obtained, more powerful versions, the same should be true for UG and AWE.
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 7
    11/19/2023 13:07:40   
    CH4OT1C!
    Member

    Ah, I think some important context may be missing from this discussion:

    I fully agree with @Lorekeeper that the effects of Guardian, UltraGuardian, and Awe need to be reviewed given the quite considerable powercreep that has taken place since their release. However, this creep doesn't come from absolute power. The items from back then might be outdated, but they use the same basic structure that's used to create modern armours. Instead, items have become more complex over time, incorporate more and more flavour effects with a net-zero impact on balance. For example, Pyromancer Bloodmage spends its MC (part of its absolute power) on compressing a spell, but it also has a free flavour effect to boost the damage of spells by 50% by paying HP. There's no gain or loss in absolute power for having this effect, as you pay for any benefit received with the HP cost. The no-drops were conceived at a time where items were simpler and such effects were very rare (and often not very good nowadays).

    What you're suggesting is a direct, unequivocal increase in absolute power. You want:
  • Adventurer to scale to [Playerlvl] + MC (NB: as I mentioned, this is because you're a Guardian and for Adventurers it scales to [PlayerLvl -10])
  • Guardian to scale to [PlayerLvl + 5] + MC (Which is absolutely stronger than most Guardian armours)
  • UltraGuardian/Awe to scale to [PlayerLvl + 10] + MC (PwrLvl 160...)
  • Ultra!!!Guardian/Awe!!! to scale to [PlayerLvl + 15] + MC (PwrLvl 165...)

    This is completely unprecedented. Although systematic, it isn't reasonable by severely contributing to powercreep. One of the benefits of having a default armour that scales below PlayerLvl is to encourage buying other items. This removes that incentive. The two solutions I proposed, in contrast:

    System #1
  • Adventurer to scale to [PlayerLvl + 3] + MC (for Guardians. For Adventurers same as now: scale to [PlayrLvl - 10] and no MC).
  • Guardian to scale to [PlayerLvl + 3] + MC
  • UltraGuardian/Awe to scale to [PlayerLvl + 3] + MC (Specialised for offense/defense respectively, whereas Guardian offers more generic options).
  • Ultra!!!Guardian/Awe!!! to scale to [PlayerLvl + 8] + MC

    System #2
  • Adventurer to scale to [PlayerLvl + 3] (Available in town).
  • Guardian to scale to [PlayerLvl + 3]
  • UltraGuardian/Awe to scale to [PlayerLvl + 3] + MC (Complete Quest to Unlock)
  • Ultra!!!Guardian/Awe!!! to scale to [PlayerLvl + 8] + MC

    The resulting Ultra!!!/Awe!!! upgrades would produce armours that are scaled to 5 Levels above standard Guardian armours (scaled to [PlayerLvl + 3]), offering an advantage to these upgrades without pushing the boat as far.
  • AQ  Post #: 8
    11/19/2023 17:40:44   
    Bannished Rogue
    Member


    quote:

    What you're suggesting is a direct, unequivocal increase in absolute power. You want:
    • Adventurer to scale to [Playerlvl] + MC (NB: as I mentioned, this is because you're a Guardian and for Adventurers it scales to [PlayerLvl -10])
    • Guardian to scale to [PlayerLvl + 5] + MC (Which is absolutely stronger than most Guardian armours)
    • UltraGuardian/Awe to scale to [PlayerLvl + 10] + MC (PwrLvl 160...)
    • Ultra!!!Guardian/Awe!!! to scale to [PlayerLvl + 15] + MC (PwrLvl 165...)


    While I still don't know what NB means but I did previously say:
    quote:

    Perhaps it isnt an entire +15, but keep in mind that both your last mentioned ultraguardian would need to be further buffed to keep from being equivalent with Adventurer and guardian.


    However, I believe both systems as you've mentioned are viable and I'm ultimately indifferent between which specifically is chosen. I will say:
    System #1- Makes the most mechanical sense (though I personally hate that AWE can't be offensive and has to be defensive only).
    System #2- Makes the most thematic sense

    Either way, I'm on board and believe that this would be a good step towards fixing the no drops. While it is my idea that the no-drops be kept simple, what is the feasibility of the addition of a flavor effect? Perhaps something to the effect of:
    • Stat drive
    • Fullset bonus
    • lean swap
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 9
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