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CHA-scaling Skills

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3/2/2024 16:31:34   

For a long time now, Guests have effectively functioned as if they are skills/spells. The recent stat update has cemented this role. However, choosing to explicitly treat Guests as skills raises a number of inconsistencies that need resolving:

  • Due to the recent update, Guests intentionally receive an efficiency greater than all other skills. This isn't necessarily a problem on its own but...
  • Skills are effectively build agnostic. Currently, we have examples of skills that can scale based upon almost every stat: Blazing Phoenix [STR], Warmaster Burst [DEX], there are countless examples but 'Woe upon Abaddon' from Infernal Angel's Liberation [INT], The Recovery Series [END], and Drop the MOAP [CHA]. To my knowledge, we currently don't have a skill that scales on LUK. However, there doesn't seem to be a reason why one couldn't exist. Guests have (understandably) always exclusively scaled on CHA, and any Guest that doesn't receives a penalty e.g., the booster companions like Poelala (please note that this sub is outdated - half of stat bonuses come from CHA rather than 25%).
  • By contrast, no such restriction applies to CHA. As exemplified with Drop the MOAP, normal skills can scale based upon CHA without being penalised.

    These points combine to create a disparity between Beastmasters and other builds. The latter can readily maximise the utility of Guests over all other builds. These skills are more efficient (45% output for 30% input baseline) and effectively quickcast (they don't use your turn. You can even cast another skill whilst simultaneously using a Guest). It also creates a "rules for thee, not rules for me" scenario where both Guests and regular skills can scale with CHA without issue, yet all other stats cannot access Guests without penalty.

    To resolve the above issues, I propose we take either of the following actions:
    1). Normal skills now no longer can scale with CHA. However, Guests will remain CHA exclusive features.
    2). The precedent is changed so that Guests can now scale on any stat without penalty. Future releases should keep this in mind, and provide Guests that do not scale on CHA. This will also mean playing a degree of catchup.

    My personal preference is to implement option 2 as this would increase the design space without needing to directly nerf CHA-based skills that necessitates retroactive work. I offer both solutions here so that we have an alternative option on the table, and I would be perfectly happy if either were implemented.

    < Message edited by CH4OT1C! -- 3/4/2024 7:52:08 >
  • AQ  Post #: 1
    3/2/2024 16:53:10   

    I vote for option 2 since we already have some precident for alt scaling guests with the booster guests and kitsune having alternative ratios that most people boost the alternative stat to get nearly full to full investment out of them anyways. Also SP CHASpells/Skills is a fun playstyle focussing arround sp management and would hate to see it go.

    < Message edited by NightofLight -- 3/2/2024 16:58:05 >
    AQ  Post #: 2
    3/2/2024 16:55:24   

    Its no secret that I like guests and "some" more then other (Amoria anyone?) so while the first option does seem more fair I tend to prefer the second one to be honest.

    Simply for the reason that guests should be a thing for everyone.
    I am not too thrilled about the catchup on not-CHA scaling guests, but if that allows and supports more players of every build however silly it may be to use guests thats totally fine.

    so 2 jsut for the fairness of including every player in the longtherm this gets my vote.

    < Message edited by sunblaze -- 3/2/2024 16:59:54 >
    AQ  Post #: 3
    3/2/2024 16:56:09   

    I also support the second option of the two, in general I support the options that keep design space the most open.
    Post #: 4
    3/2/2024 20:44:42   

    Neither option 1 or 2. Both are bad IMO.

    There is a better, 3rd option that doesn't dissolve design space entirely, but creates a penalty for what I call "stat replacement"

    It's the implementation of a new standard, where anytime a "normal" stat is replaced with something else.....anything else...then the item in question takes a hard x% penalty right off the top.

    This would include anytime CHA is used on something other than a guest...ie weapons, skills/spells, etc. This incljudes when END is used instead. If some random mainstat is used instead of a diff other main stat.

    So I support that CHA skills take on a penalty. I support that a weapon that replaces luck for lucky strikes with CHA, that the weapon takes on a penalty. I support that a weapon that utilizes END stats such as the one surfboard, or the teapot miscs that use END stats..take on a penalty.

    So if staff wanted to make a guest every once in a while that uses any of the other 5 stats for damage, I support the design space as long as there is a penalty for 'Stat Replacement'

    How much? I'm not sure. It can't be too much such that it defeats the purpose of using such items, but it needs to be enough such that it can never be optimal compared to another similar thing that uses normal stats.

    So I think a 10% penalty might fit the bill.

    As a side product of such a standard, you keep design space. In fact, if done properly, you can actually redesign CHA weapons in such a way that you can continue to develop them.

    For example, if you redesigned CHA weapons such that the stat damage comes from CHA, but the ENTIRE BTH comes from Main-stat, what happens is, is you kind of need a main stat to use them due to the BTH. But these get a 10% reduction right off the baseline power. So base/random are 10% lower.

    In fact, if you approach all 'stat replacement' items like this, they all still need a main stat to function. Not only would this allow for some design space to continue for CHA weapons, which historically are pretty much all magic, but now you can make Melee and Ranged CHA weapons that cater to Warriors and Rangers, as those weapons would require STR and DEX to land hits, but get their damage from CHA.

    Typically stat replacement items are used for the effect, anyway, and that's a further reduction in damage. Cephalolass' design was a mistake, and so a further stearing clear of that type is necessary probably (It's the only CHA weapon w/o a damage penalty due to the effect, because the effect is a compressed skill)

    On a broader scope, there's not enough compression penalties. I just think a weapon with a clickable skill should take a penalty to the baseline base/random or the skill (prob could pick and choose) Just like I think class armors need some type of compression penalties. For example, a T3 class's 20 skills..maybe 17 of them get a penalty whereas 3 dont. (Some non class armors get 3 skills and to me this is the max w/o penalty)

    I bit off topic at the end, I apologize.

    But yeah, this is my preference.

    < Message edited by Sapphire -- 3/2/2024 23:10:43 >
    Post #: 5
    3/3/2024 6:17:42   

    @Sapphire: I'm going to assume your goal is:

    There is a better, 3rd option that doesn't dissolve design space entirely,

    i.e. to at least retain the existing parameter space when designing items. If this is true, option 2 involves expanding the existing design space to create Guests that can scale on stats other than CHA without penalty. CHA also retains an advantage on Guests, since the CHA style bonus would still apply. By contrast, your solution makes the effective space (i.e. what's competitive) more restricted because of the penalties, running contradictory to your own goal.
    With this in mind, I strongly suggest supporting option 2. As well as achieving your aim, it allows you to retain access to the existing CHA-based skills and Guests without penalty. It just adds a bit more competition.

    < Message edited by CH4OT1C! -- 3/3/2024 8:39:01 >
    AQ  Post #: 6
    3/3/2024 14:53:35   

    It doesn't run contradictory. I want to keep design space. But it seems utilizing alternate stats in some cases is being discontinued, and there's no reason for it when they can just design these things with enough bubblewrap to continue their existence.

    The reason for stat replacement and compression penalties in my mind is because standard design should be optimal for the intended build/Archtype.

    Using something that replaces main stat for a secondary IMO should mean the overall power is less for the item with the alternate design, as it's intended case usage is for an ARchtype or build outside normal assumptions. Spells/skills normally use main stat for damage. If you replace it with CHA, IMO, it should take a baseline power hit. Guests are meant for CHA users, so a guest that trades CHA for mainstat should also take the same baseline penalty.

    A spell/skill , as an example, that pays half damage for fear vs the exact same spell/skill inside a weapon (or a class/subrace) currently ends up the exact same valuation, nullifying the value of the stand alone. "Why carry the stand alone when I get the same thing compressed in something?" If the power of the one contained inside the class/subrace armor had a minor penalty, it slightly increases the value of the stand alone w/o destroying the fact you get something inside the armor/weapon.

    This is my stance. Always will be.

    < Message edited by Sapphire -- 3/3/2024 14:56:42 >
    Post #: 7
    3/3/2024 17:27:59   

    @Sapphire: I must confess that I'm struggling to follow your logic, so please excuse me if I misinterpret you.

    What I think you're advocating for is:
  • Spells/Skills normally (I read: should) be expected to use mainstat (STR/DEX/INT).
  • Utilising alternative stats on non-appropriate items should warrant a penalty
  • Due to this, normal CHA skills should take a baseline power hit
  • Guests are intentionally meant for CHA users, therefore non-CHA Guests should similarly take a penalty.

    Assuming I am correct, this essentially constitutes a derivation of option 1 that I already suggested in my first post. Instead of restricting them outright, it would just reduce the effective design space by making these items less powerful in relation to spells/skills assumed to be using the 'appropriate' stats. In my opinion, this would constitute a botch that contradicts how skills function, since skills can currently scale based upon any stat (I recognise this is your opinion around how things should function. Please see my first post for examples). On top of changing precedent, it would unnecessarily increase the labour required to implement the fix since you would need to fix all END skills as well as CHA ones. All of this would be to achieve an inferior result too - rather than the inherent power imbalance generated by the 45/30 damage/cost ratio being extended to Guests for all builds (as in option 2), it would remain restricted to Beastmasters (since you'd need full CHA for 45/30. Even a non-CHA scaling Guest would take a penalty).

    I'd really encourage you to look again at my proposals. Your derivation of my option 1 seems like it would be a 'worst of all worlds' solution.

    Edit: The more I consider this situation, the more I also lean towards option 2 to create a compromise that would benefit non-Beastmasters without needing to directly nerf any Beastmaster gear. This reduces currently labour and avoids a painful nerf which isn't strictly necessary to achieve the goal.

    < Message edited by CH4OT1C! -- 3/7/2024 13:09:19 >
  • AQ  Post #: 8
    3/7/2024 8:50:04   
    Telcontar Arvedui I

    I support option 2 with the caveat that only guests that do not deal direct damage, or modes of guests that do not deal direct damage, have variants that do not scale with CHA. This includes, but is not limited to:

    a) Potence guests, such as Pridelord in Status Potence mode,
    b) Booster guests, such as Poelala, obviously,
    c) Healing guests, such as Twilly in Heal mode.

    and voila, this will help draw the line in defining how much catchup re-release is required, too!

    IMO direct damage output by guests should remain the domain of Beastmaser builds, and thus should be resource-inefficient unless the player invests sufficiently into CHA. The same should go for damage-over-time statuses inflicted by guests, although I am on the fence regarding other statuses such as paralysis and fragile, to name two. Maybe those statuses can have CHA in minor rolls instead of major rolls?

    Also also, aesthetics-wise, I would like to suggest taking the time to release non-CHA variants of future guests that make sense, instead of chucking 4 different-stat-scaling variants on every guest release. Like, I can see Bun-Banneret having a DEX-variant, but please reserve the STR-variant Blocking guest for, say, a golem rather than a bun-bit.
    AQ  Post #: 9
    3/7/2024 21:56:40   

    Personally, I think both ideas are complicated, will not work well when implemented, and take away too much of the staff's time to implement:

    Option 1 takes away option from CHA, but to me, is the better option, as it just takes away stuff from one stat, that might be considered way too good

    Option 2 to me is more problematic, even though I see more people agreeing with it
    Not only would you take away from some of CHA's identity, but this just contributes to powercreep and helps little with the poor state the game balance is. Making it so everyone has access to guests, which are definitely quite strong for what they cost, is not gonna be good for the game itself.

    I would say there has to be a better option than either of these, not a fan of the repercussion of either, be it for build-making, the time it'll take for the staff to change everything or the consequences for the future.
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 10
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