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Recent Spell Booster Weapons

 
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3/31/2024 20:10:05   
Grace Xisthrith
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Recent weapons, starting with Heroic Titan's weapons, continuing with Lovestruck, Sleepy (rebirth) Staff, and Legion Monsterlord Reaver, all have magic weapons that pay an extremely high amount of SP to inflict a status on spellcast.

These statuses are variable, including burn, bleed, choke, and more burn. I'm also convinced I'm missing one, but probably not.

I have two main issues with these weapons, one is an opinion related to game design and balance, and one is an opinion about an item standard these weapons use. They are related. The overall goal of this post is to propose to staff and players whether the game might benefit from having these weapons' outputs reduced.

The first opinion is that these weapons are able to pay too many resources to increase the output of something that already costs a lot of resources, spells, and results in the player being able to do too much, too easily, in a single turn. 392 SP is a lot of SP, and spending all of that on a single status effect, as all four of these weapons do, is a very powerful tool, especially considering we already have spells that spend this much or more on that same status effect (many fire burn spells, a few ice burn spells, 2? water burn spells) or similar statuses (fire panic spell). It's just a huge amount of player power to be adding on, and I think half of the amount, 196 SP, or 50% melee, being dedicated instead, would still provide a significant boost to player output without necessarily going crazy.

Secondly, these weapons use a hitcount standard, which practically doubles their output. They assume two hits per turn, and reward the player for hitting up to four, by doubling the output of the status effect. I view this as a problem because, quite simply, I can't even name 3 2 hit spells off the top of my head (this is hyperbole). Most spells are more than 2 hits, there's only like, 4 spells in the whole game I know of that are one hit, so I view it a standard that in this case (unlike with normal attacks, which are mostly actually two hits), basically gives the player free power with no downside. This takes 100% melee sent to a status with a 50% save to 100 /.5 x 2 = 400% melee, or more than most spells ever inflict in a status in the first place.

That being said, I think implementing both of these ideas (lowering the payment to 196 SP and halving output, and removing the per hit standard) would result in an overnerf. These are from my understanding and observation, well enjoyed and often used items by a lot of mage players. With that in mind, I think a way to limit these items power without making it feel really bad, is to only implement the first change, lowering the SP cost to 196 SP, and not the second. That way, the player is still getting a very powerful boost on their spells, but it's just not to such a crazy degree as it is currently. As well, following this idea wouldn't even be a nerf in many situations. Paying 392 SP if a player isn't say, spamming EO, or has END to spam EO, can be pretty tricky. Dropping that down to 196 would have lower output, but be much more manageable of a cost per turn. In some situations (like bosses with damage caps where too much burn doesn't really help much), it would actually be a buff, which makes me hesitate to even post this honestly.

Overall: These new "pay 392 SP to inflict massive status on spellcast" weapons are really, really powerful. I'm of the belief they're too powerful, and should be toned down, in either output, efficiency, or both, but I propose output alone. They also open the door for powercreep, as was seen directly when Legion Monsterlord Reaver used 200% melee on release (before it was adjusted to 100% melee like the rest). I'm confident if these weapons used only 50% melee, we'd never see such a massive jump in power like that. Edit: Also, for Lovestruck, Monsterlord, and Heroic Titan, the melee and ranged weapons generally do the same thing, paying ~the same amount of resources for a status. I'd advocate these also be lowered in the same way as the magic weapon, otherwise it would be weird that 2 of the sets weapons would be 2x the cost and output of the third weapon. Other melee and ranged (and magic) weapons pay equal to or more than 100% melee for select effects on basic attack, but I don't want to widen the scope to those items, as they come from a much wider range of time in the game than just these four sets of items (Nov 2022 is the oldest I know of if I recall correctly), and I believe would make making these adjustments much less likely to actually happen.




< Message edited by Grace Xisthrith -- 3/31/2024 21:18:09 >
AQ  Post #: 1
3/31/2024 20:24:19   
CH4OT1C!
Member

This is a problem that's gone on for a very long time, and has a much wider scope. The basis goes all the way back to Pyromancer Bloodmage (and possibly further, I may have missed one or two). The argument is you can only use a spell 1/5 turns, so the boost is only applicable in the same period. Since the normal power budget is 20% Melee, 20*5 = a maximum budget of 100% Melee.

The problem with assuming this is efficient spells (and skills). Realistically speaking, the player uses them far more often than 1/5 turns, and this allows them to successfully exploit them far more often too. Neither do I see the flow of efficient spells being stopped, nor do I see a significant curb to MP regeneration any time soon. Skills are the same way, with easy ways to regenerate SP.

This thread is the perfect opportunity to discuss whether we should rein in that budget, not just for spell-type attacks but for overcharged weapon-based skills like Torontosaurus Rex Rider, which have the same budget.

< Message edited by CH4OT1C! -- 3/31/2024 20:27:02 >
AQ  Post #: 2
4/1/2024 10:47:26   
Sapphire
Member

IMO, there's something perhaps more on a fundamental level that probably could be re-evaluated.

But first, I want to say that I don't think reflexively questioning item design choices by staff is the way to go. I don't think that power-creepy design is an issue. How else will staff continue to provide exciting items to the players if not for some power creep? If you wish to question the amount of power creep, then fine. But many many many players have fun with very strong item designs, and I think the purpose with some of this design is to promote spellcasting. I think staff having the freedom to express themselves with item design shouldn't always be questioned. Another thing that shouldn't be questioned, is the Art team's freedom of expression on how many hits an item has, whether it's a spell or an armor or whatever.

And that brings me to where I think the some of this may not really have much in the way of reality...

From the inception of AQ's beginning, art design in terms of the number of hits for spells has given spells an advantage in terms of hit count. Spell standards from a balance aspect haven't changed in many, many, many years. They are 653 MP and 200% Melee at L150 at base. These range all over the map from 1 hit to as many as 15 or 16 hits.

Armors, on the other hand, ranged from 1-4 hits, with Gogg form being 7 and T-Rex's skill being 8. As far as memory serves, those 2 armors are the only exceptions to the 1-4 hit range.


The standard of assuming 2 hits, and capping to 4 hits is new relatively speaking. This also doesn't matter if we're talking about an armor attack or a spell.


When spells routinely have more than 2 hits, the magic weapon's design will almost automatically allow it to more easily exceed power budget. This is fact.

Therefore, I call into question the actual standard.... If most spells exceed 2 hits, why is the standard assumption 2 hits? This makes zero sense at all.

Likely, that standard needs to change for on-hit effects when a spell is casted to at minimum 3 hits (with a cap of 6) or 4 hits (with a cap of 8). You cannot have the same standard for armors as spells when it comes to on hit effects unless you alter every spell's animation and code to adhere to the same as armors.

Not only that, spells haven't been power-crept much, if at all. A lvl 150 spells 10 years ago = a spell made today in terms of balance. However, armor design is much more intricate, considers multiple facets, and HAVE been power crept quite a bit. This means old armors are no longer relevant, thus lowering the options to use with these types of weapons.


While the anti-power creep crowd would certainly prefer to just half the Sp cost, and maybe even on TOP of that go with what I'm saying here, I think a lot still goes back to leaving the devs alone in terms of item design and art design. It's ridiculous to constantly question EVERYTHING they do.

So here's the totality of my suggestion:


A. Change the standard for spells to be average of 3 hits and cap on-hit effects to 6. This will reduce the power of these effects by 1/3 at 3 hits but be = to now at 6 hits.
B. I call into question the SP cost for the magic weapon. Spell based skills cost 392 for melee/ranged but 490 for magic. While this isn't a spell-based skill, it IS inflicted when a spell is casted..so should the cost actually be 490?? I'm honestly not sure, but I think this needs evaluated.
C. Allow , when a melee or ranged weapon is used, that the effect *also* work when a SPell is casted, using the same 3 hit average, 6 hit cap.
D. Leave the cost at 392 (exception magic, if an argument can be made, which would increase this to 490)


Thats it
Post #: 3
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