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RE: =AQ= Warwolf Prime Giftmaster Set Vote

 
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=AQ= Warwolf Prime Giftmaster Set Vote


Dardiel's Accuracy/Beast Manipulation Set
  44% (70)
GwenMay's Hypercrit/LS Set
  43% (68)
RobynJoanne's Information-Based Set - The Hunt
  11% (18)


Total Votes : 156


(last vote on : 8/10/2024 15:00:13)
(Poll ended: 8/10/2024 15:00:00)
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7/25/2024 23:23:05   
Aura Knight
Member

Too bad forum polls can't keep results hidden.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 51
7/25/2024 23:51:42   
Dardiel
Member

I do have a feeling that the standings won't change much over the next two weeks (since anyone can see the current standings, anybody that knows how First Past The Post works would avoid voting for 3rd unless they're confident it'll triple its votes while nobody else gets any), but if the main issue is that the standings might change then we could just have a rule of "no switching until the final X days of the poll" where X is like 7-10 (last week to last half). We're only on day 7ish right now (14ish days left) so even allowing the final half would give 4 more days to see how things shape up, and allowing the final third would give us a full week to see if any shifts happen; if there are no shifts we could implement the rules (with an extra handful of days to work out those rules, if any need to be changed/added/removed).
Post #: 52
7/25/2024 23:55:26   
Branl
Member

quote:

I have always supported the idea of the popular vote winning but I have never supported the idea of allowing one to change their vote as and when they please. Everybody gets 1 chance to vote, why should some people get to regret and have 2 choices? Should everyone be getting another choice now or should we just redo the whole thing?


With the current constraints of a forum poll, these two statements are contradictory. If people believe that rallying behind their second preferred set will lead to the best chance of getting an outcome they like best, then there's no argument that it wouldn't be consistent to a popular vote to allow them to do so.
And "some people" don't have 2 choices, currently, everyone can express interest in their second preferred set. If they couldn't, you'd effectively be punishing players for voting for the set they like, voting early, and both. You'd also make it much less likely anyone would willingly express interest in an unpopular third pick. Because if they do so, they risk their voice being frozen out entirely.
Although if staff share concerns regarding the potential for poaching or back and forth switches, I point to @Dardiel having proposed a reasonable set of limitations that would address that.

<Snipped content referring to deleted stuff. ~Anim>

quote:

I don't think it's possible to change one's vote, and although we understand concerns about the flaws of a system where first place can go to something only a minority of voters support winning or votes past second place not mattering, the forums don't support that option. I think the only way we could do something like that through the thread systems would be voting in stages, such as polls that eliminate the last place and then reopen for another period. Other than that, one way to handle that would be managing a future ranked poll manually by having everyone post a list and then doing a manual sequence of re-tallies that eliminates each last place, then posting the process for transparency. I'll ask about this.


This isn't a general staff response, this is a independent statement from Lorekeeper. And the most they expressed is they they didn't think it was possible to change one's vote, and they'll ask about player concerns regarding the voting system. Evidently, they did, hence we are allowed to switch votes to best represent our interest in the event our first pick seems unviable for victory.
Also, participation in a system isn't necessarily a belief that the system is "fine". Only that they wish to participate in the voting process because otherwise, they would have no voice at all.
Dev Anim: Sorry guys, we're not allowing switching of votes this time around. It's not fair to switch last moment, nor fair for those that voted earlier. We'll certainly look at ways to improve the system for next time.

< Message edited by AnimalKing -- 7/29/2024 8:44:32 >
AQ DF  Post #: 53
7/26/2024 0:00:24   
Branl
Member

@Dardiel
quote:

I do have a feeling that the standings won't change much over the next two weeks (since anyone can see the current standings, anybody that knows how First Past The Post works would avoid voting for 3rd unless they're confident it'll triple its votes while nobody else gets any), but if the main issue is that the standings might change then we could just have a rule of "no switching until the final X days of the poll" where X is like 7-10 (last week to last half). We're only on day 7ish right now (14ish days left) so even allowing the final half would give 4 more days to see how things shape up, and allowing the final third would give us a full week to see if any shifts happen; if there are no shifts we could implement the rules (with an extra handful of days to work out those rules, if any need to be changed/added/removed).


I don't really think it's necessary to timegate switching votes. You'd make it more likely you'd have a floodgate of requests to sort through rather than a steadier stream. I think the first restrictions you outlined are fair for letting people fully represent their first and second picks, while precluding the possibility of excessive switch requests or poaching.
AQ DF  Post #: 54
7/26/2024 0:18:51   
Korriban Gaming
Banned


quote:

And "some people" don't have 2 choices, currently, everyone can express interest in their second preferred set.

Is expressing interest and voting the same? I'm not sure if you're using them interchangeably because we get 1 vote and not 2. If everyone could, we'd all express interest in all 3 sets. Do all 3 sets win and get made then?

quote:

Then why did you bring it up as a concern?

I think you misunderstood me. It was never a "concern", more of "yea I agree with Dreiko's point regarding this".

quote:

This isn't a general staff response, this is a independent statement from Lorekeeper.

He is staff no? He also uses "we" multiple times in that response, I would assume that refers to all staff. Anyways I see no point in discussing this irrelevant detail.

quote:

Evidently, they did, hence we are allowed to switch votes to best represent our interest in the event our first pick seems unviable for victory.

But that defeats the entire purpose of voting for the set that you like best no? People would then be voting for the set they don't hate that has the best shot at winning. If this is the case why even have 3 options then? Might as well make it 2 to begin with. And why would any other future poll have more than 2 options with this logic if you're gonna let all the obvious losing options be able to change their vote to something that is more likely to win.

quote:

Because if they do so, they risk their voice being frozen out entirely.

That's just how voting works. There can only be 1 winner so unless everyone votes for the same thing there's gonna be people whose voices who are gonna be frozen out anyway? What's the difference? Even if the loser ends up losing by 1%, their set still won't get made no? Their voices would still be frozen out anyway?

And since there are 3 options, what if the winning set gets only 34% of votes and the other 2 get a even split of 33% each. Does it mean the other 66% have voted in vain? You seem to be alluding to the point that anyone who didn't vote for the winning set would have voted in vain.

< Message edited by Korriban Gaming -- 7/26/2024 0:25:48 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 55
7/27/2024 16:36:56   
Aura Knight
Member

At this point just add 2 variants with their individual suggested effects. There's significant support for both. Or combine them.

AQ DF AQW  Post #: 56
7/27/2024 17:02:10   
Talebound
Member

Would you mind elaborating on this?

I'm not sure whether you mean separating a single suggestion into 2 versions with one of said suggestion's functions, are referring to having the top two suggestion made or something else entirely.

I would disagree with either one since respectively
A) This feels like crippling the synergy of ideas people probably worked on for an extended period of time and thus diminishes its overall functionality and even the drive and enthusiasm of coming up with these things.
B) This would defeat the purpose of a poll entirely. It's already been established this format isn't optimal to begin with.
Post #: 57
7/27/2024 17:16:17   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 

We only had two sets last year as compensation for decisions made under the duress of exceptional circumstances. We cannot accommodate that kind of extra workload anymore, and it would invalidate the poll. So while I understand wanting to see all the cool ideas happen (It certainly hurts to only pick one), making an extra set just because the race is close with two weeks to go is absolutely out of the question.
Post #: 58
7/27/2024 17:25:41   
Aura Knight
Member

I have several ideas on how to try it. One I'll stick to is: If the armor has multiple forms make one focus on hypercrit and the other on follower empowerment.

If time is a concern why then do we accept content delays? Who cares if it invalidates a poll? There's behind the scenes nonsense which does the same. It feels bad to be almost equal in support then come short. If it was a more significant margin loss accepted. Way too close now.

quote:

We only had two sets last year as compensation for decisions made under the duress of exceptional circumstances.


That's one way to describe it. Truth is the wrong idea won.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 59
7/27/2024 17:35:29   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 

No, the truth is exactly what was stated last year.

Once again, there are still two weeks left in the poll. We will not invalidate our word given about how this content will be run. Please don't ask us to. We cannot keep postponing other releases to make last minute content additions when we are still racing to catch up to the domino effect of past emergency reschedules. This has nothing to do with content delays that may happen a day at a time, and everything to do with how much work it takes to make an entire highly complex set.

We understand how close it feels, but please be respectful of other players' choices and our team's workload. Making two sets again is not a choice anymore. This is final.
Post #: 60
7/27/2024 18:06:21   
Aura Knight
Member

<Snip>

I voted day 1 and regardless of the results I don't regret my pick. Just hope others won't either.


Mod Anim~ Please seems PMs thanks. ~Anim
Ps. Gentle reminder to all to be considerate to others when posting.



Dev Anim: To give a bit more reasoning and analysis on this.
- There's ~2 weeks left of voting.
- Two sets are indeed very close together.

We're open to suggestions for future contests, however any changes during this campaign would be deemed unfair or undermine the vote. It also creates a lot of "what if.." scenario. To give an extreme example, if offering both sets was put on the table. That'd mean players' remaining vote would go towards set three. If set three caught up, then what?

To keep it as fair as possible we need to abstain from changing what was set out originally, and let it play out organically. When the voting has concluded, we can certainly have a review and take on feedback. Until then please let all cast their votes on what they'd like to see.


< Message edited by AnimalKing -- 7/28/2024 6:15:08 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 61
7/27/2024 18:07:14   
AQMaid
Member

All of these look really interesting and seeing how close the votes are really tells on how well crafted each choice is.

AQ  Post #: 62
7/28/2024 1:43:57   
Planistorun
Member

Voted for Gwen set, anything related to luck is always nice
AQ AQW  Post #: 63
7/28/2024 11:13:59   
Heroes of the Scape
Member

Voted for Dardiel's set. Personally, I believe that Hypercrit shouldn't even exist in the game
AQ  Post #: 64
7/28/2024 14:32:31   
Aura Knight
Member

quote:

We're open to suggestions for future contests, however any changes during this campaign would be deemed unfair or undermine the vote. It also creates a lot of "what if.." scenario. To give an extreme example, if offering both sets was put on the table. That'd mean players' remaining vote would go towards set three. If set three caught up, then what?

To keep it as fair as possible we need to abstain from changing what was set out originally, and let it play out organically. When the voting has concluded, we can certainly have a review and take on feedback. Until then please let all cast their votes on what they'd like to see.


I know how insane a request it is but if not now maybe it can be considered for future contests. It really would be best for all. The thing I can't accept is the disallowing of the idea being posted. It doesn't need to happen but it should still be expressed at least for future reference.

edit: In the event of a tie what happens?

< Message edited by Aura Knight -- 7/28/2024 16:19:39 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 65
7/28/2024 16:30:41   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 

Again, it isn't an option anymore. As I said, it's a final decision. It would be FAR from the best option for all involved. As far as the team goes, it already repeatedly explained that we cannot fit that extra workload in the year anymore. As far as the players go, it'd be yet another case of having to replace what task a heavy workload week can be dedicated to.

Decisions like this have ripple effects beyond just the week being postponed. The immediate effects are major enough, being that players miss out on a major quest, class revamp, MC set, QoL project, or other major release for that year. In addition, the catch-up process for other minor tasks being postponed continues to impact releases down the line and make it harder to fit OTHER such releases in the future. That's from ONE week of heavy disruptions. This idea would require up to a month of disruptions, and a workload on par with Frostval. We cannot humanly do this, let alone do it and still keep up with the game's development and our coders' needs.

We are not disallowing you from having an idea or posting it. Posting the idea was allowed in the first place; explaining that implementing it isn't an option is the response to that. The problem lies in insisting on a request, ignoring consecutive explanations that it cannot be implemented, and presenting these explanations as silencing. One does not get to spam and then refer to the consequences of doing so as disallowing an idea. The idea was allowed, and a response to it was given. The matter was explained politely, then sternly upon insistence, then a mod intervention was required when insistence escalated to rudeness.

Please be respectful and remain on topic going forward.
Post #: 66
7/28/2024 19:27:21   
Branl
Member

quote:

hypercrit benefit is really the best choice as multiple builds can use it.


The way it's proposed, only FO players with Luck can use it. Quite frankly, it's fairly limited in application compared to Jeanne or Dardiel's sets. Dardiel's set benefit from, but don't require Cha to function, on top of FO/FD toggles with spellcaster damage boosting. Jeanne's set doesn't even require any stats and has FD/Spellcaster toggles.

quote:

If you really think of it there's too much beast build support and recently we've had armors in addition to what existed before. And with most existing hypercrit effects being premium to have the chance at one now while getting free tokens with which to obtain it is a great opportunity.


"Beast support" as described is basically just anything that is modified by Cha, versus the more narrow LS. Even then, many aspects of Dardiel's set, either don't require Charisma at all (Weapon/Shield) or only are partially impacted by Charisma (Misc), and the armor itself allows for use cases where you don't have any Charisma (although it is modified by it).
AQ DF  Post #: 67
7/29/2024 10:05:32   
ming shuen
Member

Since RobynJoanne's set is out, I really don't know which set I want to win. Both Gwen and Dardiel's set boost spells - which is kinda neat. Lucky strikes are impressive - and big numbers are cool, but damage caps exist. Plot armour exists. This curtails much of its power. Meanwhile, I don't like relying on pets and guests - even though I run 250 Int / 250 Cha / 250 Luk.

For future iterations of the contest - I suggest hiding the votes. Also, I suggest not unveiling the winner till after the donation contest ends. Would probably help keep the peace while people campaign for votes. There's also the side benefit of having more tokens go around. Not knowing which set will win ahead of time, will result in more donors - since there is this mystery factor. It would help the game's bottom line as well
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 68
7/29/2024 10:23:36   
Branl
Member

quote:

Since RobynJoanne's set is out, I really don't know which set I want to win. Both Gwen and Dardiel's set boost spells - which is kinda neat. Lucky strikes are impressive - and big numbers are cool, but damage caps exist. Plot armour exists. This curtails much of its power. Meanwhile, I don't like relying on pets and guests - even though I run 250 Int / 250 Cha / 250 Luk.


With the caveat of letting you know that I support RobynJoanne and Dardiel's ideas fairly evenly (With the same concern that Jeanne's set is effectively out of the running), I think the pet/guest reliance of Dardiel's set is fairly minimal. The Shield and Weapon have effects that aren't affected by Charisma or Pets/Guests, and the Misc only has partial functionality based on pets/guests. The armor itself lets you immediately switch modes into one that disables pets/guests and converts the buffs pets/guests get into equivalent player buffs for a cost (which should satisfy your stated desire of not relying on pets/guests).

Also I'm very wary of a donation set featuring hypercrits before a pending LS nerf.

quote:

For future iterations of the contest - I suggest hiding the votes. Also, I suggest not unveiling the winner till after the donation contest ends. Would probably help keep the peace while people campaign for votes. There's also the side benefit of having more tokens go around. Not knowing which set will win ahead of time, will result in more donors - since there is this mystery factor. It would help the game's bottom line as well


I don't personally agree with this. The mystery would further disincentivize donating tokens (If you have no idea who is likely to win, why would you donate more?), this idea has been pedaled by both people who have gotten themselves banned over the polls (There is no reason to reward bad behavior, also calls into question WHY this was proposed), and, even though I find the poll discussion exhausting, a lot of interest is generated off of a public poll, especially in one as close as this one. Also, strategic voting is one of the only tools people have in a FPTP system to make sure they can potentially impact the result with a second choice in the event that their first choice is unpopular (and thus, wouldn't just waste their vote).

< Message edited by Branl -- 7/29/2024 10:31:43 >
AQ DF  Post #: 69
7/29/2024 18:58:27   
Rastaban
Member
 

The mystery is set to end long before the end of event where a large portion of donations will take place regardless. In the future, the polls could also start much earlier, potentially even ending before donations begin. I would also not agree with hiding the victor until after the donations are over, though.
Post #: 70
7/30/2024 0:52:25   
ForbiddenX
Member
 

i see alot of vote soliciting and am voting for gwens set as i think it is the most powerful idea
Post #: 71
7/31/2024 0:01:57   
Talebound
Member

People vote for people
People should also read haha imagine

This is a catalyst for the inevitable
Read the fine lines all ye

The future might not be your inner rainbow
Post #: 72
7/31/2024 21:02:35   
  Ward_Point
Armchair Archivist


Reminder to all members to read the Dev Notes before submitting your vote. There is no way to amend your vote once it is cast.

Again, You cannot amend your vote once it is cast.

quote:

Dev Notes for Dardiel's Accuracy/Beast Manipulation Set:
While complex, this is a very interesting set that would provide a chance to set new standards to finally fix the long-standing issue of charge mechanics feeling unrewarding unless overcompensated for in design. However, due to its mechanical complexity, it does enough that we have some notes to communicate on how the set would have to deviate from the suggestion:

  • At the time being, Ferocious Strikes are coded to have a fixed x2 output and require CHA. Some minor system work would be required to adjust this.
  • +100% Ferocious Strike rate is a threshold we're very wary of.
  • We're wary of proliferating more triple mode items. This isn't a hard no, but it's one of those things that would slow down releases and result in fewer cool things being released due to taking longer to make them.
  • PCF being balanced around it dividing the bonuses based on how many PCF items have their Integration active This gives a lot of potential to get something hugely powered up if you use multiple items to charge it within a fight, and then condense the bonus into a single item. One way in which we could address this would be to cap how high the bonus for an individual item can be.

    Weapon: Weapons need to be capped at +/-10 BtH.

    Misc: As well as the above note on triple compression, the 2nd option spending HP/MP/SP takes up the MC effect. In addition, we've been moving away from damage-scaling effects over time, this would need to have a X% Meleevalue.

    Pet: Highlighting component of a broader set issue through which penalties that pay for effects occur on a miss, while the set trivializes accuracy.

    Shield: Rather than give the EleShield at the start of turn, it would likely be better to have it applied on the first attempted hit, or at the end of the player turn if no hit was attempted.

    Armor: This has such a heavy amount of compression that it raises concerns for development time and compression standards. It reaches a point that would make it difficult to implement everything even before bringing up the concerns for future expectations, so we would have to focus on the parts most important to the idea. As a last note, the pet damage bonus would have to be lower than expected, and penalties that the set trivializes may need a second look, particularly when a mode funnels the bonuses to the player.



  • quote:

    Dev Notes for GwenMay's Hypercrit/LS Set:
    We'd be remiss not to include a large collaboration set that has garnered this much support, but must unfortunately include the caveat that most of it cannot be implemented as suggested. At its core, this is because it revolves around mechanics that are subject to updates at a time when we are too overloaded to predict when we'll be able to revise them. That makes it very tricky to apply this concept in a way that won't be invalidated or left pending a revamp at the uncertain time in the future when this mechanic changes. To cover other specific details:

    Lucky Strikes and Hypercrit are currently slated for revision. This is partly due to inconsistent values that need to be consolidated. Additionally, they're based on multiplicative bonuses that make it too easy to guarantee critical strikes with minimal setup. The setup-to-output ratio is virtually all output, making it very unbalanced. It would be very difficult to maintain this idea's identity without having to perform all the work for this revision before or in time with this set, at which point the values themselves would still be different.

    Misc: In lacking an elemental component; it'd need either Fire resistance or a non-elemental penalty. Healing based on outgoing damage is already something we're moving away from, and would need an alternative approach. Healing on outgoing crit and multiplying this value by 10, on a set that can guarantee crits, is also something we cannot implement.

    Shield: We have not created a LUK drive shield because it would invalidate all stat potency shields. This set's shield is not only a LUK drive, but an effect we specifically moved away from retaining on Ironthorn. We would need to do something completely different.

    With nearly the entirety of the set needing to be reworked to make it through, we feel it important to inform players about implementing the closest manageable version with the caveat that it could be impacted by future changes.



    quote:

    Dev Notes for RobynJoanne's Information-Based Set - The Hunt:
    This is a set that would require a lot of work, and we would have to call in some reinforcements for UI features, but the necessary improvements to the UI (A new status display/stat card) could be a huge boon to the game. So while the complexity and workload are both serious concerns, a week in which Ianthe and Kamui work on these items while we get help overhauling the status UI would serve as both a reward to the Giftmasters and an advancement on upcoming QoL revamps that improves the game for everyone.

    Some of the bonuses run too high for comfort and would need to be toned down. Ie. triple compression on every item would be a concern. Question from Kamui on that: It seems Tracker should be active at all times and you just swap between Analyst and Striker, no?

    Weapon: We've shifted to having DefLoss not require a hit to attempt, and this item's whole setup seems to be perm DefLoss per turn and you can take bonus damage and apply up to a -20 BtH lean to get even more damage. We're iffy on this much bonus damage being sourced from a single piece of equipment.

    Shield: Getting -26 to all elements feels OP in general, and for the cost required. We could potentially have it either charge a greater amount per element, or weaken the resistance per element applied, like two elements becomes -24 to both, three elements becomes -20 to all three, etc, though we'd be wary of this still being a bit much while deviating from the idea.

    Armor: Shield elecomp is not an available option. We have concerns about both +50% damage and element seeking, and would need to tone that down.

    Pet: +100% Damage dealt would have to be toned down.

    AQ  Post #: 73
    7/31/2024 21:33:28   
    legendd
    Member
     

    I am late to the party and dropped my vote for Gwen. Hope the LS set wins. <Snipped unnecessary comment.> ~Anim

    < Message edited by AnimalKing -- 8/2/2024 2:26:49 >
    Post #: 74
    7/31/2024 22:40:29   
      Lorekeeper
    And Pun-isher

     

    Please don't drag the thread back towards mockery and conflict.
    Post #: 75
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