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11/3/2014 22:43:28   
Noobatron x3000
Member

I'm going to keep this short and sweet. Can you please balance legend ranks this would solve a few problems.

1) balance the game
2) make 2v2 playable for anyone 36-39
3)make 1v1 playable for 38's and 39s
4)make wait times for anyone in this range less horrific (since most of the 36-39 will actually stay logged in)

Facing some1 atleast 2 lvls above you stat point wise up to a possible 19 levels above is ridiculous come on guys.
Post #: 1
11/3/2014 23:05:20   
Mother1
Member

What do you suggest they do to balance these ranks?

A while ago I suggested making the ranks give non battle affecting prizes, however many dislike this idea due to spending varium and credits to

A) boost to get to the ranks
B) Unlock the ranks

and said if they did this it would be the removal of enhancements all over again.

Epic  Post #: 2
11/3/2014 23:33:32   
Gepard Acht
Member

Perhaps nerf the value of each legendary points?
For example each sidearm points will give 2 damage instead of 4 etc.

This will nerf legendary rank as a whole but STILL keeping the legendary rank idea (Not remove it)

Thoughts?
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 3
11/4/2014 1:37:29   
comicalbike
Member

well if they alter them they lose more players is that what you want they lost lots players with all the nerfs and more will go
Epic  Post #: 4
11/4/2014 2:59:38   
Satafou
Member

Legendary ranks aren't broken, I've beaten rank 60 players as a rank 7. You just have to concentrate more during battle and outwit them. If you really think they're so broken and you can't win against them, then just do npcs. It's really that simple, no one is forcing you to pvp. Doing pvp when you are aware other players will have a slight advantage and whilst you're aware of the additional level up/rank up route available is just being ignorant.
Post #: 5
11/7/2014 11:05:09   
Noobatron x3000
Member

So what your saying is I should join the many people who think legend ranks are broken- And flat out refuse to play the game after 38 like everyone else (why you hardly see anyone 36-39)

Since npcing is boring and pvp is broken - Ah okay reasonable- Have fun with those wait times.
Post #: 6
11/7/2014 11:17:41   
Satafou
Member

PVP is also very boring nowadays. I'm telling you the wisest option, if you care about win ratio that is. If you don't care about ratio why does this even affect you? If anything it's in favor for you as it's a challenge. Ranks are not broken, low ranks can beat high ranked players. All because someone is a high rank that doesn't make them a good player, it just shows they've been active during the time period ranks were released. Also 100 npcs everyday doesn't take a long time, that is all you need to do to acquire a high rank for yourself. Ranks are nothing compared to enchantments they're really not broken and the fact low players can beat high ranks is proof of that. When enchantments were around a non-varium couldn't dream of beating a varium user.
Post #: 7
11/7/2014 11:21:56   
Mother1
Member

@ Satafou

That was because Enhancements were so outrageously priced that non variums couldn't get them nowhere as easy as Varium players could.

If they were fairly priced like the ranks are non variums would have had much more of a chance of winning against varium players.
Epic  Post #: 8
11/7/2014 13:59:16   
Variation
Member
 

quote:

Have fun with those wait times.

Wait times were already horrible prior to Legendary Mode so that argument is very weak. In fact, I myself haven't noticed an abnormal change to wait times since the introduction of Legendary Mode. It's still taking me around 1-2 minutes for a 1v1 and 3-7 minutes for a 2v2 (the wait times are way longer at off-peak times around 5ish minutes for a 1v1 and 10+ minutes for a 2v2).

The developers have given players a way to earn experience with no PvP involved (NPCs). If low ranking players aren't satisfied with their rank they can do 100 NPC wins a day and earn up to 2,400 experience a day from NPCs alone(with PH(s)). Now I could understand all of the requests to alter/remove the power legendary ranks give if and only if players were completely forced to PvP to earn experience, but in EpicDuel's current state that isn't the case. Players can achieve rank 60+ in less than a year by taking advantage of NPCs at power hour(s).

Also, low level players beat high ranks all the time. I had a level 36 partner vs two rank 60+s in 2v2 one time and still won(they had a 4 level + 60 rank advantage), so they aren't nearly as overpowered as some players make them out to be.

If everyone was rank 60+ there would be requests all over the place to add more legend categories(there would probably still be complaints, but not nearly as bad as it is now), but since there are so much low ranking players you mainly see complaints. Players would rather make the players who worked hard for their high legend rank suffer because they feel they're so unbalanced. Yet those same players can't provide a solid explanation as to how low ranking players can kill high ranking players with little to no luck. How can they be so unbalanced when you can kill players with over a 60 rank advantage? I've done it more than once in 2v2 and if I can do it anyone can do it. I was a low ranking player myself before, and not once did I attack Legendary Mode. I simply play on my main for usually an hour a day and played on my alt for usually an hour a day. Now they're both rank 60+ players. All of this was done in less than a year by simply playing this game for a very small time a day.

You must also realize the developers have to be careful with what they do to Legendary Mode at this point. There would be many ticked off high ranking players who go out of their way to support this game. If the developers decided one day to remove/alter them those players could stop supporting the game. The developers themselves are probably aware of that which is why despite all of the complaints regarding Legendary Mode, it still gives a power advantage. I'm sure they don't want to tick off their most loyal supporters like they did when they removed enhancements.

There are more than just players who want Legendary Mode removed playing this game. I've seen numerous low ranking players who to this day are still excited over applying their legend ranks. So the whole notion that all low ranks/levels are suffering is false. There are players of all types enjoying the way Legendary Mode is in its current state and those players shouldn't have to suffer if the developers were to remove/alter Legendary Mode. Which is a feature that was already in place for a while now.
Post #: 9
11/7/2014 17:09:46   
comicalbike
Member

well whatever they do does not matter to me as long as game gets better
Epic  Post #: 10
11/7/2014 17:28:04   
Noobatron x3000
Member

Just making the point , That people will at best play a lot less between 36- high legend rank at worst leave - Due to the perception of legend seeming unfair (and they flat out are) Unless someones going to try claim a extra 30-40 dmg per turn makes no difference

With a extra 30 def / res

Over 10 turns that's 300 less damage taken and 300 more dealt that's just versus a low end 40- Vs anyone lower the advantage gets even more extreme.

Its broken , and keeping it that way isn't good for the game.

Your not only handing a massive advantage to the elitists (they need less skill to compete) Your heavily restricting the build options anyone else has. Your definitely dead if you use most builds - Almost certainly dead if you use others (luck not factored in) Killing diversity - all thanks to the rank system- It's just flat out broken.

< Message edited by Noobatron x3000 -- 11/7/2014 17:31:05 >
Post #: 11
11/7/2014 17:28:12   
Exodasbr
Member

^I agree. However I also agree with variation to some extent in that there should be some reward for the very very hardcore players (I'm not one of them).

Everyone wants to be rank 60 or have the best equipment but If everyone has it, It loses its appeal, so I if I don't think they should introduce boosts of any kind for Legend Ranks.
AQW Epic  Post #: 12
11/7/2014 17:39:03   
Mother1
Member

@ exodasbr

As I pointed out before I mentioned changing the ranks to non battle related rewards and even made a topic about it. However, even if they did that, it would case backlash.

Enhancements used to be in the game until omega came along and the staff took them away from those who had them in the hope of balance. The end result of this change was losing a lot of the players they had due to poor compensation for the money they spent on them.

If they were to remove the power ranks gave again it could be de ja vu all over again which is also an issue.

My problem with this is "If they got rid of enhancements which gave power advantages to players, why in the heck do you make a reward system give a nerfed version of the same thing when you know balance is already in the crapper?" It shouldn't have been done, but sadly it was.

While Variation and Satofou have points about lower level player being able to beat higher ranked players, Noobatron x3000's point also stands due to these ranks scaring players out of playing the game due to having to fight them. Many players don't like NPCing either and they don't like being forced to do so just to catch up as well.

Epic  Post #: 13
11/7/2014 17:48:05   
Exodasbr
Member

@Mother1

That is true as well, but as with any change it is impossible to please everyone.

As for the non battle rewards,It might be a good idea but It would depend.

what sort of non battle rewards would there be?
AQW Epic  Post #: 14
11/8/2014 0:51:09   
Dual Thrusters
Member

Here's my theory.

Ok, so there are quite a few players that have built up their ranks. Many of them have played before Omega and have bought enhancements. So they have already experienced getting their enhancements refunded, yet they continue to play!

Now here's an analogy. Think of the removal of enhancements as the Black Death. These players are the population of Europe. The first time the Black Death swept across Europe, over a third died. But the second time it came, the percent decreased! And for the third, fourth etc. Natural Selection was taking place.

That being said, it's a possibility that we might not lose as many players as we think if ranks were altered. But of course if it is done, it has to be carefully

OR a band-aid fix could be to make it so players can get their ranks faster. Like level 40 exclusive missions that give XP, or have NPCs continue to give XP after your 100 fights are over.

MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 15
11/8/2014 1:19:33   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


Perhaps we could strike a compromise. We could change the legendary ranks' special ability to increase the number of active/passive cores a player can have at a time. This is not game-breaking, due to the limited power of non-fixed cores, while giving legendary-ranked players an appreciable advantage. This advantage is however not (in theory) too overwhelming for lower-ranked players and lower-levelled players to overcome. These can come together with non-battle benefits as well.

I'll also like to point out that when lower levels beat legendary ranked players, it's often due to the former's better luck or a significantly flawed build on the latter's part. Matchups against legendary players are often a guaranteed loss for lower levels, no matter how well they play.

< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 11/8/2014 1:22:37 >
Post #: 16
11/9/2014 3:01:55   
Noobatron x3000
Member

Devs if you read no other post please pay attention to this one.

The game is desperately broken between level 36-39 and its unplayable in 1v1 - near unplayable in 2v2 - Npcing is to boring - And I thought you wanted the games primary purpose to be PvP shouldn't it be a option for everyone if its the primary purpose?

I ask you to check the statistics of people logging in in this level range how long they stay logged in, I'm convinced this will provide you the evidence you need to make emergencie changes.

As I'm sure you can see with such low numbers in the game - Everyone going inactive or leaving before they ever reach the pinnacle of the game due to a badly balanced legendary rank system is not healthy for the games prospects at survival.
Post #: 17
11/9/2014 11:22:00   
Variation
Member
 

^Like I've said I haven't noticed a noticeable change to the wait times and I'm level 40. Legendary Mode has been here for almost a complete year and if the developers really felt like they were oh so damaging they would've changed the power they gave a long time ago. The thing is like me and Satafou explained they aren't nearly as broken as players make them seem, and to top it off no one is even forced into PvP to gain experience. It doesn't matter if NPCing is too boring, that is the players' option to rank up at a reasonable speed without playing PvP. If a player wants to avoid PVP, but doesn't want to NPC for experience, then he himself is causing his problems not the developers' decision to not change Legendary Mode. The developers went out of their way to reintroduce NPCs for players of all levels and if players don't want to take advantage of NPCs that's their problem, not the developers'. Those high ranking players didn't get their ranks from avoiding the game to attack the developers/Legendary Mode, that's the key.


If legendary ranks were as broken as certain players try to make them appear you wouldn't see low ranking players beating high ranking players with little to no luck. The notion that legendary ranks are dangerously broken is probably being conjured up as a reason to why players are losing. I wasn't even one of the first players to level 40 and I never had trouble killing high ranking players. I've been faced against two rank 60+ players in 2v2 with a level 36 partner more than once and I still won those battles with no luck. If they granted easy and free wins like members of the community try to make them appear, I wouldn't have won those matches, and Satafou wouldn't have beaten that rank 60 as a rank 7.

< Message edited by Variation -- 11/9/2014 17:19:09 >
Post #: 18
11/9/2014 17:58:47   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


^

So you're saying that it's legitimate for level 38-39 players to essentially be forced out of the game due to legendary ranks? And it's not even like purely NPCing till level 40 is a real option. What about event missions requiring PvP? What about wars? Do you know that I take an average of 40 minutes to get just 5 PvP wins in 1v1? Given that I have a virtual 100% win rate against players of my level, I'd like to think that I'm a decent player. Furthermore, the entire point of removing enhancements, not to mention Omega itself, was to encourage PvP. Legendary ranks directly clash against the fundamental premise of the game.

Moreover, the reason the devs have not implemented a fix is not necessarily that they don't see that this is a problem, but more likely that they do not have the resources or ideas to address the situation. They have always been slow with large-scale balance fixes.

Lastly, 2v2 is not a good indicator of game balance because of the sheer number of extraneous factors that can come into play.


< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 11/9/2014 18:01:36 >
Post #: 19
11/9/2014 18:55:48   
Variation
Member
 

^So if you believe it's more likely that the developers see Legendary Mode as an issue, why exactly haven't either the developers or their guest team come out and say they see it as a problem? If they really do see Legendary Mode as a problem they need to speak up so players can stop assuming whether they do or not. It has been almost a year now and not a single thing was adjusted with Legendary Mode itself(the explicit power advantage they give for example +30 primary damage when primary damage is maxed). I can tell you certainly if the developers really do see Legendary Mode as a problem they need to act quickly and not be "slow" because they see it as a large-scale issue. More and more players are spending loads of in-game currency on this system/experience boosting, and I can tell you they will not be happy if the developers decide to remove them and give them some crappy like enhancement refund.

The developers know how high end players will react because of the removal enhancements, and I'm sure they know it's not pretty. I've lost almost all of my friends because they weren't satisfied with the removal enhancements/refund, and I don't want to lose anymore if the developers were to make the same mistake twice.

Also the level 38-39 players should do what is in their best interest to become a high rank in EpicDuel's current state, and that of course is NPCing. Like I've said I was a low ranking player before myself, by the time I was rank 1 there were already rank 20+ level 40s, but I wasn't gonna waste my time complaining in the forums I simply played NPCs for two hours a day(one on my main, the other on my alt). Now in less than a year I have the 3rd highest rank in the game and a rank 60 alt. I could see a reason for all of this attacking if like I said players had no other option besides PvP to earn experience. However, in EpicDuel's current state that isn't the case.

Even if players were forced to NPC to get a decent rank, it's better than doing nothing but constant complaining because they find it unfair.

Also, if Legendary Mode was truly broken it wouldn't matter what mode(besides Juggernaut because that is broken itself), players win in with a disadvantage. Satafou has beaten rank 60s at rank 7 in 1v1, so that also shows that the mode is irrelevant(minus Juggernaut).
Post #: 20
11/9/2014 22:58:28   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


^

The devs' policy is that they won't announce anything they're doing if they're not going to release it in the near future, which often means the day of release itself. This is to prevent heightening expectations and creating time pressures for no real reason. The devs have also failed many times in the past with regards to balance, and their untimely reactions should not be taken as a good indicator of the state of balance in the game.

Furthermore, the mindset that legendary ranks aren't broken because players can NPC is ludicrous. It's like saying Juggernaut isn't broken because players can 1v1. Or, for that matter, that it isn't broken because one or two players managed to win a Juggernaut match at level 40. You also make the argument that if legendary ranks were 'truly broken', no lower ranked player could beat a higher ranked player and it would be equally broken in all battle modes. I.e. that there are no combination of circumstances that could possibly mitigate the advantages of legendary ranks. Which is obviously untrue. The problem is that such a combination of circumstances is extremely rare and cannot be influenced by individual players.

Plus, as I have already said, purely NPCing is not a real option. Furthermore, NPC farming and actively avoiding PvP should not be virtually imposed on the player. I shouldn't have to be penalised for levelling up.

The only coherent argument for maintaining legendary ranks is the backlash removing it would cause. This however does not in any way imply that legendary ranks aren't broken. The entire point of this thread is to find a win-win solution - to fix legendary ranks while minimising or avoiding the backlash altogether. We have mechanisms such as forum, Twitter or in-game polls that can allow us to test the waters of public opinion. What you're doing is denying that there is a problem at all, when we really should be trying to find a good solution. I personally feel that my multiple-core suggestion is viable if the devs design more insertable cores.

< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 11/9/2014 23:17:38 >
Post #: 21
11/10/2014 2:28:43   
Satafou
Member

A poll with the suggestion for the removal of ranks would be the worst possible way they could possibly handle the situation. Not only would the vote be biased but many players within the Epicduel community simply don't understand how balance works and what is OP'd and what isn't. If a level 38 can beat a rank 60 (which has happened) then it is quite evidently clear they aren't broken. If i can beat a rank 60 as a rank 7 without luck factors, how can ranks possibly be broken? In the end of the day Epicduel is like chess, it's a game of wits, not brute power. The winner of the battle tends to be the more skilled player. Yes luck happens, yes ranks give a slight advantage (which they should). However if you outplay them, and see through their tactics it really isn't that hard to beat high ranks as a low rank.
Post #: 22
11/10/2014 4:49:01   
Variation
Member
 

^They aren't nearly as broken as players try to make them appear or you wouldn't be beating rank 60s at such a low rank. The notion that they're dangerously broken and are destroying balance is probably because players want an excuse as to why they're losing, and what better excuse is Legendary Mode?


@Silver Sky Magician: The developers should have foresaw the complaining Legendary Mode would bring because now they've put themselves in a tight situation. I'm not asking for them to tell us if they're working on a release, but rather their opinion on the subject because the longer they sit back and not address if they feel Legendary Mode is broken or not, the more problems they will cause themselves if they decide to remove it or heavily revamp it later on. If they truly feel Legendary Mode is as broken as certain members of the community feel it is(which it isn't considering low ranks can kill high ranks with little to no luck), like I've implied they better do something quickly. More players are becoming level 40 and spending in-game currency on experience boosting/legendary ranks it's because of that reason alone why the developers need to address if they really see Legendary Mode as a problem.

If they really do want to alter Legendary Mode, they should:
1) Allow everyone to keep their experience, which means they keep their current legend rank.
2) Change the legend categories to do things non-battle related, but make them worth having.
3) Completely refund the currency players spent on buying legendary slots and set everyone's unlocked slots to 0 except the first legend category which starts at 1 free unlocked slot.

That is pretty much their best solution if they want to make a semi-fair change to Legendary Mode(semi-fair as in not screwing the players who spent loads of in-game currency on this system). While I do understand they aren't required to refund in-game currency, it's in their best interest for them to do so if they decide to change what the legendary categories do.

If they do side with that solution to please low ranks, it won't heavily screw over players who have already deeply invested into Legendary Mode. However, many high ranking players would be pretty ticked off seeing as they invested time for a battle advantage which Legendary Mode is currently giving. The developers could create legendary categories that are worth investing in, and that should be their main priority if they decide to alter Legendary Mode.

However, like I said such a drastic change to Legendary Mode isn't needed because not only can low ranking players kill high ranking players, but they can also NPC. Also I'm not saying "legendary ranks aren't broken because players can NPC," I'm implying if a player doesn't want to PvP to earn experience he has no choice but to NPC. If that player does nothing he's the one causing his rank problem. Players are using Legendary Mode as a reason to do nothing, but they seem to ignore the fact that they can become rank 60 in less than a year with NPCs alone(with power hour(s)). If a player was really determined to PvP at a low rank he absolutely can do it, Satafou isn't the only low rank in the world who can beat high ranks. He's beating high ranks because he's outplaying them, simply playing with more strategy than his opponents are. I can tell you legendary ranks don't win you battles, but strategy does. I wouldn't have beaten players with over a 60 rank advantage in 2v2 without luck if I went by the "I have a reason to do nothing" mentality.

< Message edited by Variation -- 11/10/2014 4:58:00 >
Post #: 23
11/10/2014 5:11:20   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


@Satafou

I'm not saying have a poll whether to scrap ranks or not - I'm saying have a poll to see whether alternatives will be welcomed or not. Whether to replace ranks will have to be a decision regardless of players' feelings.

@Variation

I think we have some common ground here - I'm not saying go back to a pre-rank era, I'm saying that we should reform it, and how we should going about doing that is worth discussing. Moreover, I do agree with you that it is in players' interest to NPC out of the level 38-39 range instead of waiting for a fix that may never come, but the point is that this situation is undesirable and even untenable, and that it is in the game's interest for legendary ranks to ultimately be reformed.
Post #: 24
11/14/2014 19:13:32   
ffeeeee
Member

I wish there was no more legendary ranks, because my games are so close that i literally lose to only people 10 or more ranks above me. When i was leveling up to 40 it was terrible at level 38- 39 since I pretty much only got level 40s. I'd like to see them go or at least change, but i kinda doubt that they will.
Post #: 25
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