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Assimilation - Technician (Stat Requirements)

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7/22/2015 17:45:31   
Lord Machaar
Member

I think both of these skills need to have stat requirements, support requirement for assimilation and strenght requiremet for technician, because unlike other builds, both high strenght TM builds and high dexterity TM builds can reach their full potentials by having base support in case of strenght builds, and base strenght/support in case of dexterity builds. This is due to the lack of any draw backs when dropping both of these stats to their base minimum, for instance, unlike other builds:

Energy related:
Parasite: if a BM wants to use a high strenght builds, he has to put base support, by doing that, you sacrifice with parasite, the only draining/gaining skill a BM has (Parasite has 42 support requirement at level 10). On the other hand, TMs can put their strenght/support to base minimum with the ability to use all of their skills, for instance, assimilation and technician.
Frenzy: This skill, unlike assimilation, can't be used with all builds (can be used with high str and 5 focus only), but on top of that it has support requirement, which limits its use when used by strenght TLMs.
Static Charge: Has a technology stat requirement, but luckily, EMP improves with technology, which gives a huge boost for 5 focus CH builds, but limits the use of it when we are talking about other builds.
Static Grenade: Improves with support, for now, I still can't find a working-BH-support build. That doesn't mean the skill is bad, but it is bad compared to an additional-energy-skill TMs have.
Static Smash: A somewhat better version of assimilation in terms of % drained, so if a strenght TM without battery back up faces a mercenary, that wouldn't make a problem for that TM, since assimilation in that case drains up to 290 energy, more than the energy drained by static smash. Without ofcourse mentioning that static smash is blockable unlike assimilation.

Shields related:
Most shields improve with stats that usually aren't used in any build of said class, for instance reflex boost/energy shield, both of these skills improve with support, these skills are used by Blood mages/Bounty hunters, both of these classes don't have support-based-builds. Hybrid armor, this shield is literally the worst for non-5-focus merc builds, the shield counts on how many defense/resistance you got, for god sake, a support/strenght merc build user already has a low defense/resistance, with that being said, using hybrid armor would be useless, same goes for mineral armor...

Beside the fact that both of these skills have no stat requirements, both of them improve with stats that benefit the class, for instance, when technician improves with dexterity, this is the perfect match to make a tanky build, making high dex TM builds better than other dex builds. This is another topic, and needs more details, so I will just stick with stat requirement for now. The topic is about assimilation in first place, and how an additional skill on top of battery back is better in terms of stat requirement/improvement compared to other main energy skills of other classes.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 7/22/2015 17:56:30 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 1
7/22/2015 18:05:47   
Mother1
Member

Why not just remove all the stat requirement from all the other moves thus adding variety to all the other classes, instead of adding a stat requirement for one thus restricting said class to focus builds?

We already have people complaining and bickering about their being no variety due to restrictions so why not the other way around?
Epic  Post #: 2
7/22/2015 18:22:25   
Lord Machaar
Member

To answer your question, we need to put another one, why the stat requirements are here in the first place? For instance, why parasite has 42 support requirement?, strenght BM builds were ruling back then and such nerf was needed, now with BM str builds aren't doing that well, you can see that the stat requirement is still here. I've already told OWA this, the balancers were obliged to choose this path, devs can't make new skills/cores, therefore balancers are obliged to deal with what they have, modify some numbers here and there. Stat requirements aren't the best tools to balance the game, because after each balance patchnote, new builds rise, and others fall down. So without a regular maintenance and check up of the game, these problems will always follow with any new balance patchnote.


< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 7/22/2015 18:37:02 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 3
7/22/2015 20:26:48   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 Couldn't this also be partially solved as well as some other problems if we made skills like frenzy and static smash not have their effectiveness increase with strike damage but keep assimilation the way it is?

I can say right now that adding a support requirement to assimilation would limit TM very heavily although I can see where you are coming from. Technician doesn't really need to be changed as the class has very little reason to make dex-centric builds and the skill itself is not too crazy without tons of dexterity.
Epic  Post #: 4
7/22/2015 22:34:59   
overdead
Member

Supported. I'm rather concerned about maximum damage potential without much penalty of str TMs. Besides ability to max str without consequence, alternate use of phys and energy damage with little mana cost makes it arguably the only effective str compatible class right now.

I was actually hoping a nerf would be done to either or both phys skills of tm but this idea is better. This doesn't even do much at all because battery backup is still there. When BM loses parasite, energy gain is lost with the drain. Those str BMS who opted not to use parasite end up pretty weak IMO.

I'm just sick of str mages in the low to mid ranks dominating. The botting problem due to extreme ease of use irks me the most.

< Message edited by overdead -- 7/22/2015 22:37:35 >
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 5
7/22/2015 22:50:52   
.Lord Ginger.
Member

Lets nerf str and supp, so we only have 5 focus. STR TM is not a problem for smart players. My rank 13 beat rank 60 str TM
AQW Epic  Post #: 6
7/22/2015 23:03:57   
King Bling
Member

quote:

For instance, why parasite has 42 support requirement?, strenght BM builds were ruling back then and such nerf was needed, now with BM str builds aren't doing that well,

Not true, they ruled even after supp requirement, they then nerfed str itself so its not used anymore.
Post #: 7
7/22/2015 23:28:10   
Lord Machaar
Member

@Lord Ginger.
What is the name again of your rank 13 alt, and let's meet in-game to have a nice challenge and see how you can do without your ranks since you already lose with them.

@Exploding Penguin:
quote:

Couldn't this also be partially solved as well as some other problems if we made skills like frenzy and static smash not have their effectiveness increase with strike damage but keep assimilation the way it is?

It could, what you've said is the same as, why nerf X class, while you can buff the other 5 classes. Looks fine by me, but is it to the balancers? balancers are shortcut lovers, can't blame them since they are 2 or one and a half, so going the other way around would mean next balance patchnote will take place next july.

quote:

I can say right now that adding a support requirement to assimilation would limit TM very heavily although I can see where you are coming from. Technician doesn't really need to be changed as the class has very little reason to make dex-centric builds and the skill itself is not too crazy without tons of dexterity.


High rank dex builds are really abundant at level 40, the reason is clear, ranks enhance these type of builds to make them invincible, the +30 resistance is just another reason to invest more in tech, also, these builds have nothing to lose if they use pyro fly, unlike 5 focus who are obliged to use infernal android, or strenght builds who are obliged to use effective bots like blood hawk or acid bot,high dex builds have nothing to lose, the build is already doing well, so by adding up pyro fly, it only makes it worse for other builds, especially when their energy skills get disabled, which happens most of the time.

@King Bling:
If now BM didn't have that requirement, would the class be that much bad? Back then the stat requirement wasn't doing that well but now it is. While now a high str TM build can run wth 19 support, a BM has to waste 23 stats on support to make 1 skill work.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 7/22/2015 23:34:13 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 8
7/23/2015 13:47:47   
Dj Pizza
Member

I would like to highlight a few mistakes.

quote:

Static Smash: A somewhat better version of assimilation in terms of % drained, so if a strenght TM without battery back up faces a mercenary, that wouldn't make a problem for that TM, since assimilation in that case drains up to 290 energy, more than the energy drained by static smash. Without ofcourse mentioning that static smash is blockable unlike assimilation.


First of all most STR TM's Assimilations ranges around 250-270. To make Assim drain 290, you need more than 160 STR which is a bit illogical since you would be left with little points to put into both HP and Dex. This would be asking for a Mark of Blood or Blood Commander.

2: Static Smash is UNBLOCKABLE as mentionned in patch 1.6.46 (22 may 2015)

quote:

I still can't find a working-BH-support build.


That's because Support BH is just nonviable in the current format, just like Support CH. Static Grenade is still an incredibly useful skill since most BH with Focus 5 with around 60 supp.

I also support what Mother1 said about removing requirements. Apart from impeding on possible build creations, it doesn't do much to balance the game.
Post #: 9
7/23/2015 16:54:57   
Lord Machaar
Member

quote:

First of all most STR TM's Assimilations ranges around 250-270. To make Assim drain 290, you need more than 160 STR which is a bit illogical since you would be left with little points to put into both HP and Dex. This would be asking for a Mark of Blood or Blood Commander.


I didn't say that assimilation drains 290 energy, I said it can drain up to 290 energy, so there is a difference. Energy drained can go down to 260 and can go up to 290. With that being sad, the skill still drains more energy than static smash at its lowest rate http://puu.sh/jahZY/575fc07f5f.jpg. That looks logical to you? Or just because you are playing as a TM, it is logical?
I'm a facts man, I tell you what's going on on PVP right now, I just did 100+ wins today and I'm on LBs, and everything said in my post still applies, I'm not telling stories from when I was level 30 or from last year. The screenshot I gave you was taken 30 seconds ago, so if I'm telling you I've seen TM builds with assimilation that drains 290 energy, I'm pretty sure they do exist.

quote:

That's because Support BH is just nonviable in the current format, just like Support CH. Static Grenade is still an incredibly useful skill since most BH with Focus 5 with around 60 supp.

That's the point, that build doesn't even work, and balancers used this to nerf the class, while on assimilation there is no stat requirement, and we here talking about an additional energy skill.

quote:

I also support what Mother1 said about removing requirements. Apart from impeding on possible build creations, it doesn't do much to balance the game.

You can consider post number 3 as a response.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 7/23/2015 16:55:48 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 10
7/23/2015 17:26:55   
Dj Pizza
Member

You are comparing a skill at it's lowest rate vs a skill at it's highest.

I've seen some high rank Dex TM with 185-ish Assimilations while Mercs that pops out Blood Commander can drain you way beyond that 250.

Also you call yourself a fact man but still haven't noticed it's been 2 months Static Smash is unblockable ;)

Almost forgot: I think Assimilation is fine as it is, but I do agree though: Mercs have too little ways to play around energy compared to TM, TLM and even CH.





< Message edited by Dj Pizza -- 7/23/2015 17:58:28 >
Post #: 11
7/23/2015 23:20:29   
Lord Machaar
Member

quote:

You are comparing a skill at it's lowest rate vs a skill at it's highest.
I've seen some high rank Dex TM with 185-ish Assimilations while Mercs that pops out Blood Commander can drain you way beyond that 250.

The screenshot given clearly shows a level 40 with 5 focus build using level 10 static smash, and no, this is not the lowest rate of this skill, and no blood commander doesn't count, since we are here talking about the skill itself not the skill tree, in situations where mercenaries have 0 energy and TMs have 0 energy, only then the energy skills make the difference. As if you want to add up skills here, you forgot katherax's bot, intimdate, etc..

quote:

Also you call yourself a fact man but still haven't noticed it's been 2 months Static Smash is unblockable ;)


http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21978825
In the DNs of 22nd of may, the underdog mode got buffed, and for a player who supported/suggested this mode, a minor change back then indicated in the end of the patchnote didn't take my attention. And with that being said, saying that static smash is unblockable, the skill is still doing bad compared to other energy skills, adding up/removing the blockable/unblockable fact doesn't change a thing.

quote:

Almost forgot: I think Assimilation is fine as it is, but I do agree though: Mercs have too little ways to play around energy compared to TM, TLM and even CH.

I've given multiple skills, you only focused on static smash, and the irony is, we are here talking about assimilation only while putting battery back up aside.

-On Topic-
Sure adding up stat requirements to assimilation/technicion is considered as "killing" variety, but doesn't imbalance kill variety too? And from my humble-updated opinion, imbalance does kill variety, when we talk about a high dex TM build, can you name another high dex build that puts up a challenge with it? High dex BM who got 42 support stat requirement for parasite? High dex BH whose static grenade improve with support?
Or when we talk about high strenght TM build, can you name another high strenght build that puts up a challenge with it? High strenght BM who also got a 42-stat-requirement on parasite? Or high strenght BHs whose static grenade improves with support? Or high str TLMs with frenzy that has support requirement?
Ofcourse I didn't mention CHs/Mercs because both of these classes don't exist when we are talking about high str/dex/support builds, both of these classes are tied up to 5 focus builds. I can't variety here that we are going to kill.
I don't think that variety would get touched if we add stat requirements, the opposite will happen as other builds might get a chance.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 7/23/2015 23:27:58 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 12
7/24/2015 5:16:01   
Darkwing
Member

The problem with BM is that the reason why 5 focus is by far the best build for BM is that parasite needs 42 support.

What build has at least 42 support? Strength? NO, TAnk? no.


There's also the problem with classes that have 2 free skills. If you use pyro fly and it's locks parasite at the start of a battle. You will have a field day even with 5 focus BM.


Classes like TM, TLM, have 2 skills that are free and give energy, health, steal energy.



Heck, Assimilation with good strength is almost the same as mercenary's skill or BH' grenade. That's on top of the battery.


Post #: 13
7/24/2015 22:27:48   
Dj Pizza
Member

quote:

The screenshot given clearly shows a level 40 with 5 focus build using level 10 static smash

Yes I've tried it and noticed the range of effectiveness was extremely narrow compared to any other on-hit Energy drain skills.

quote:

I've given multiple skills, you only focused on static smash


That's because I was in agreement with your other statements...

quote:

you forgot katherax's bot


That bot should affect Assimilation although since it doesn't directly messes with STR I understand why it doesn't.

To stay on topic, I do not support adding stat requirements on anything. In my opinion a skill should be balanced or changed. Making a key skill to a successful build totally unusable is, in my opinion, pretty lazy. Changing the way Assimilation scales though could be a nice solution, though I can't really say which stat should it be. Dex? No thanks, as they already have crazy tankiness, gun, technician AND multi. Tech? That would just bring ED even closer to a focus 5 only meta. Support? Maybe... Support TMs don't have anything special apart from some decent nukes with rarely any stuns coming out of it. Adding some high Assims could definitely help see this kind of build flourish. But that's just a thought.
Post #: 14
7/24/2015 23:15:49   
Mother1
Member

@ DJ pizza

The reason it the katerax bot doesn't affect assimilation is because unlike the other moves it works with strength alone not primary damage. Katartax nerfs a primary's damage but not strength itself which is what Assimilation scales with.

Frenzy, Static smash Etc however work by taking a percent of the primary damage and coverts it which is why Karatax affects them.

If you want assimilation to be affected by Katarax you would need to change the way assimilation works and make the primary damage count for the drain and not just strength itself without the primary. Otherwise katerax will never touch Assimilation.
Epic  Post #: 15
7/25/2015 1:47:13   
Lord Machaar
Member

quote:

To stay on topic, I do not support adding stat requirements on anything. In my opinion a skill should be balanced or changed. Making a key skill to a successful build totally unusable is, in my opinion, pretty lazy. Changing the way Assimilation scales though could be a nice solution, though I can't really say which stat should it be. Dex? No thanks, as they already have crazy tankiness, gun, technician AND multi. Tech? That would just bring ED even closer to a focus 5 only meta. Support? Maybe... Support TMs don't have anything special apart from some decent nukes with rarely any stuns coming out of it. Adding some high Assims could definitely help see this kind of build flourish. But that's just a thought.


Lazy. This word describes the current balance patchnotes of ED balancers, was it their choice? No it was not, the balancers are obliged to deal with what they have, by modifying some numbers here and there, that's all they can do, they don't have the resources to make new cores/skills, which is the "unlazy" way to balance the game. E.g: Katherax's bot and how it perfectly deals with strenght builds without even touching these builds. So I think players should understand this, and they should start suggesting things that are doable, which is what I'm trying to do here.

The Assimilation/Technician fix I suggested won't make these builds useless, since they are already doing good, even better at high ranks, it will get them in-par with other builds of other classes, whether these builds share the same concept or not. And the stat-requirement-balancing-way is far better than changing with what the skill improves, e.g: overload, and I'm sure many players didn't like that.

If you noticed the OP, I didn't give numbers, since I consider it a waste of time, it is up to the balancers/testers to set these numbers, but from my humble experience, the stat requirement for assimilation level 10 should be between 34 and 42 support, since frenzy level 10 requiers 34 support, and parasite level 10 requires 42 support. The reason why I said the build will stay usable, wasting 10 - 15 stat on support, doesn't mean the build will become usless useless, since almost all builds of other classes that are sharing the same concept sacrifice some stat points on something, thus why did I make this post. Ofcourse Except 5 focus builds, which brings me to the next point.

After each balance patchnote, things change, some builds shine, some don't, and since these type of builds (high strenght and high dexterity builds) are already doing good, the fix I suggested may or may not alter their preformance against other builds that don't share their same concept, e.g: 5 focus builds. But I will leave that for testing to decide, and I can't deny, at this point testing is not easy, since on one hand, these builds deserve a nerf to put them on par with other builds of the same type, but on the other hand, some of these builds don't deserve such nerf compared to builds of other types. (Strenght particularly, and high dex TMs are doing more than great against all builds/classes).

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 7/25/2015 6:50:58 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 16
7/25/2015 4:26:06   
King Bling
Member

You want str tm to be nerfed because it easily beats you, like in edzo's vid and nowras etc.
Not supported, will lead to ppl moving for f5 and f5 is already OP
Post #: 17
7/25/2015 6:41:29   
Lord Machaar
Member

By looking at your character page, under the name of BountyKnights, it is pretty clear who is desperatly trying to defend his interests here, I think the 60 ranks you have weren't enough for you.

quote:

After each balance patchnote, things change, some builds shine, some don't, and since these type of builds (high strenght and high dexterity builds) are already doing good, the fix I suggested may or may not alter their preformance against other builds that don't share their same concept, e.g: 5 focus builds. But I will leave that for testing to decide, and I can't deny, at this point testing is not easy, since on one hand, these builds deserve a nerf to put them on par with other builds of the same type, but on the other hand, some of these builds don't deserve such nerf compared to builds of other types. (Strenght particularly, and high dex TMs are doing more than great against all builds/classes).
Quoted from the reply above yours.

Civilized people's talk;
That's why testing exists, the stat requirements added to both skills will be carefully chosen to keep the builds targeted on par with same-type builds and also with other type of builds. Strenght builds of other classes aren't on par with TM's strenght builds, same thing goes for TM's dexterity build, even some classes are stuck with one build, which is 5 focus. Adding stat requirements would bring dex/str TMs builds on par with other same-type. Ofcourse, there is the other way around which is buffing all builds, but I doubt that would be possible given the fact that we have only 1 and a half testers.
I'm trying to be as subjective as I can, and if you read the OP, and I'm sure you didn't, I've brought up many skills of others classes to the surface, my opinion is based on battles I did on my main, on my alts, and battles I've watched on youtube, and this gave me a global idea of what should be tweaked in order to bring the game to an optimal but not perfect state of balance.

Uncivilized people's talk; for you ofcourse.
As for the first part of your reply, since it is off-topic, I'm not really ready to waste my time on a useless debate, since I defeated you despite the ranks difference, that would be more than enough to make you shut up for a little bit. If you got something on-topic to discuss, you are more than welcomed, if you got something off-topic to discuss, especially if it revloves about me directly not the ideas given in this post, be my guest and PM me, as I tend sometimes to curse and use bad words, which is highly inaccepted here, and I don't want to get my self a third ban doing so on a person like you.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 7/25/2015 7:25:57 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 18
7/26/2015 2:16:12   
  WhiteTiger

Majestic Feline of AQ3D & ED


 I just cleaned this thread of all the off topic posts and the attacks on other people.

Please remember to stay on topic and if you see a rule breaking post, PM an AK and do not respond to it.

quote:

Do not Respond to a Rule-Breaking Post
The proper course of action in this circumstance is to alert a member of the EpicDuel Forum Staff via PM. Check to be sure which ArchKnights are online before sending a PM to ensure the problem will be handled without delay.

Thanks,

WhiteTiger
ArchKnight ED
AQW Epic  Post #: 19
8/16/2015 6:53:29   
Stonehawk
Member

quote:

For instance, why parasite has 42 support requirement?, strenght BM builds were ruling back then and such nerf was needed, now with BM str builds aren't doing that well


Strength BM OP -> Add requirements to parasite -> Strength BM still strong -> Nerf parasite -> Nerf Strength -> Strength BM useless -> Requirements still there

How about taking requirements away? Strength is not a treat anymore nor parasite with that high cooldown and only 2 turns effect.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 20
8/16/2015 18:51:15   
Caststarter
Member

This thread had more than 14 days without anyone posting in it at all. As such, it is considered a dead thread where a new one should have been created in its stead. As such, it will be locked. Please make a new discussion where you see appropriate in a new thread or in the class threads.
DF  Post #: 21
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