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8/14/2014 4:23:11   
Ranloth
Banned


 By now, we're all aware of the stress on Energy and the power of Strength builds.
Strength abuse requires minimum Energy, whilst other builds will often depend on it more. There is also the matter of Energy draining (and returning) skills being used a lot - not as a counter, but a must-use skill.

Back in Delta, our Energy was at around 43-45 (430-450) and Strength builds were also powerful, but take into consideration that passives were free - unlike now - and there was no cores. And the builds that depended on Energy? They trained it, unless it was TMs or TLMs.

What am I getting at? The possible solution to deal with that Energy stress and nerf some builds, whilst buffing others.
First of all, L1 players would start off with around 300 Energy, and by the time they got to L40, their Base Energy would be at around 400 at most. Next, one stat into Energy would grant you 17.5-20 EP, so there's an incentive to train it, especially with lower base Energy. And lastly, the draining skills would all take a small nerf to make them counters - rather than being dependant on them.

What would this solve? Strength builds would not have their free resource (Energy), or not to this extent. With cores and skills? Yeah, you'd have some careful planning there. Too little? You can train it instead. Draining? It would get weakened also.
For those who depend on Energy? Yes, they'd also take a nerf but could make up for it easily, especially with skills draining less and Energy being worth investing into.
Strategy? Yeah - with less Energh but also weaker drains and better stat progression, you could actually pull off more. Don't expect to be able to do everything with base Energy. That's the mentality players have now, and expect to do everything with draining and base Energy, but that's also partially the fault of Energy not being worth investing in. Some classes would also gain on it, especially ones with superior drain but inferior drain.


I'm not particularly interested in who does or doesn't support this, but actual feedback, since it's a known issue and little solution is being posted.
Also, don't take the numbers included for granted. It's only there to illustrate the idea.

DiscussiOn!
AQ Epic  Post #: 1
8/14/2014 6:36:20   
Remorse
Member

Hey trans,


I think their needs to be a more solid solution,

Nerfing numbers IMO won't necessarily make the reliance on energy drains any less.


Neither will giving players more energy nor making it easier to invest in,
This is because these figures are irrelevant, the problem is their in no strategic control.


High accessibility and no or low costs on drains gives these things no limit, as a result drains are not a strategic option they are a obvious requirement.


So how do we create solid solutions?

-Give all energy drains a cost, it might have to be HP, or it might have to be defenses, or it might have to be rage, or it might have to be a completely new cost system such as stamina points.


-Also limit the ability of all classes to control energy, making each class have a drain and a regain was a terrible decision IMO.



-Create counters to drains such as energy drain shields in the form of activateable cores that prevents or a passive core that reduces them.


-Release some of the pressure of energy by giving cores a different sort of cost such as stamina or others mentioned above.



The reason why these solutions have to be considered first before tampering numbers is because draining's core issue is there is no downside, each decision should have implication which need to be weighed by the player and determined if it's worth the benefit.

If drains do not have a sufficient cost then changing numbers alone will not help this issue though it might make other areas worse.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 8/14/2014 6:41:11 >
Epic  Post #: 2
8/14/2014 7:02:49   
suboto
Member

I dont agree with nerfing base energy it would hurt multi builds terriblely support builds for example. Support is already underpowered compared to any other stat. Nerfing energy would hurt merc and tlm. But over all all the classes need that extra energy for a heal after useing multi or before. 1st thing to help with the balance of the game.
1. Buff support give it back its control on rage and possiblely its reduce stun chance. the control on rage would cut down on str build power quickness as a build that can deal massive power each said turn shouldnt be rewarded a rage in return even if against a tank.
Now for the energy drains
2.Atomic smash the most useless energy drain in game why is it useless? Sure its only 60 energy then +10 each level but the fact its blockable, does zero damage, returns nothing, cost a turn, and it start off only draining 250 energy while the others can be improved or return or some even do damage. sure battery compermise to the energy game for tlm but what about the fight to stop it? Its time this still got a revamp on some damage bonus or a raise in energy drain from having some stat improved.
3.Emp grenade another example of a bad energy drain sure its unblockable and improveable but its 100energy to start off. The cost needs a slight nerf starting 100energy changed to 90 or 95 energy.
4. Assimilation I feel this still makes str a bit too rewarding for tech mages why? a str build gets rewarded with a energy drain buff to not just take but to gain and then some. I feel this skill should be revamped into any of the following
improves with support, percentages, really low life steal and really low hp steal example 100energy max take and 50hp take added bonus unless block then no added hp bonus.
5. battery I find this to be a bit to high for low levels The base needs to be lowered to start off but increased in the progression instead of +10 over a few levels and start off max 295 changed into max start off 250 or 245 and increases +15 every so levels wont effect it much but would help balance the skill a bit more on the low end
6. Finally all of the energy drains in juggernaut mode should only allow 1 energy drain used on the juggernaut after each round the juggernaut makes a move so its not 300 or 250+300 or 250= 600 or 500energy gone
7. revamp the hp progression instead of +13hp/14hp each point change to +14~+7 +14 the start off +7 the highest end of hp.

Over all 1 and 7 should be the 1st thing on the devs plate of to dos


< Message edited by suboto -- 8/14/2014 7:03:54 >
Epic  Post #: 3
8/14/2014 7:16:50   
Ranloth
Banned


 I'm looking at Energy control in general, not individual skills. Also, secondary solutions are not the point of this thread - that's why I only mention Energy as a stat.

Nothing was mentioned about free skills or more counters - that's a different topic entirely, and not one I want to cover. I'm only covering it as a stat here, not looking for different solutions.

Besides, I'm yet to see why Energy shouldn't be invested into, since it's the same as any other stat. Not worth it? There's three reasons for that - base Energy is high enough, skills, and slow scaling. And we know that's a fact too.

< Message edited by Trans -- 8/14/2014 7:17:38 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 4
8/14/2014 7:25:27   
suboto
Member

@trans your not seeing my point those factors are why energy has to stay like it is as a stat. And yes theres reason to invest in it. Example cyber hunter max massecure/poison build, tlm max sugical/posion, more builds.\
Any build depending on 2 skills maxed for damage are why someone would invest.

< Message edited by suboto -- 8/14/2014 7:26:37 >
Epic  Post #: 5
8/14/2014 8:23:23   
Remorse
Member

Is energy the stat the definite problem?

It honestly hasn't changed much since it wasn't a problem but the amount of skill that effect it has.


Should we be changing energy to suit the new style or should we be making the new style fit energy?


This question needs to be answered first before you list solutions.




In one of my Marketing units at university we were always told to find the underlying problem not the result.

Changing the way skill manipulates has resulted in energy being broken but it is still a result.

Although marketing is not relevant the same tactic of fixing issues is, in the case of marketing the issue was generally a decline in sales, but what is the cause?
It could be a change in the demographics that use your product but it's important not to confuse the problem with the result.




What I am getting at is perhaps energy being broken could be a result not a problem, fixing the result won't fix the problem.


Epic  Post #: 6
8/14/2014 9:03:19   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 As a BH, I must say that energy control adds a strategic dimension to the game, and is not excessively limiting.

The problem arises when certain energy control skills are not particularly useful, threatening the class as a whole. This primarily applies to CHs. BM's energy drain is somewhat more reliable and is interesting tactically, and BMs are helped by the low energy costs of their skills (conversely CHs must expend a great deal of energy on high-level Poisons and Massacres) IMO the problem with energy control can thus be largely fixed by re-examining Static Charge.

I think the superiority of Strength is a separate issue. Part of the problem, I feel, is that after a certain point, there is no point in adding extra skill points, and hence less incentive to add to dex/tech/sup/energy to bolster these skills And this point arrives at a level that is considerably below the level cap. I find myself adding to Shadow Arts, of all things, so that the energy costs of my useful skills remain the same and allow me to continue my optimum energy control strategy.

Of course, there are also other, no less important problems, such as the lack of offensive skills which function independently from STR, which obviously incentivises the affected classes to add to STR. And the affected classes happen to be all classes other than TM, and to a lesser extent Merc. BM's burst skills don't have synergy with its energy control skill, so they become unreliable utility skills. I certainly think that we can and should find a balance between making defensive builds overpowered and making them at a clear disadvantage. Rage is another card that favours STR, though IMO it's fairly balanced.

In essence, my hypothesis is that the fundamental reason why STR has become, in many cases, a superior option is because the level cap has been pushed too far, decreasing the utility of offensive skills for most classes. The solution is then skill revamp rather than stat revamp, which has historically been an inadequate measure.

It is important to note that STR contributes to a diversity problem, not a balance problem, because STR builds are often quite beatable using alternative builds available to all classes (save CH, because of their poor energy control). Which is another reason why I think that a focus on stats rather than skills is misplaced.

< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 8/14/2014 9:09:21 >
Post #: 7
8/14/2014 9:44:51   
DeathGuard
Member

@Remorse: We aren't thinking of giving players more energy, we are thinking of nerfing base energy stat and improving the scaling off the points invested on it.
If this were to happen:
e.g. Base energy is 400. All classes would have to invest if they want more energy to use skills, therefore, lowing down not only the points invested in strength but also in defenses/support. If someone uses a tank or spam build without investing, it would fall behind. You could call it an obligatory action to keep on track with others, like learning English, Chinese, Portuguese, Spanish, etc. While it could be taken as a strong nerf to some low energy resource classes, it affects all classes equally.
It isn't that there is no strategic control in energy investing, rather than we have got enough in energy so we decide to invest it on other stats.

If we make a new stat system with "stamina points", it would be other problem that would arise.
How would it progress? How much will you be able to gain per damage or per attack?
Will it favored ALL of the builds?*Considering no build should have greater income/use of stamina points than other.
Is it really necessary?
How much time would it take to develop? It is really better than focusing directly on stats, and not a new part of the stat system?

One of the main problems is that people have been suggesting counters to energy deprivement(drains). Currently, we have energy drain skills, but with cores, the demand of needing to use the energy before it gets stolen has grown bigger. Sometimes, you even end up using skills you may not even need to prevent your foe to get that energy stolen.
The energy stress was already high when energy drain cores got implemented. IMO, this is one of the problems currently, that just adds more weight to the EP stress.

quote:


Besides, I'm yet to see why Energy shouldn't be invested into, since it's the same as any other stat. Not worth it? There's three reasons for that - base Energy is high enough, skills, and slow scaling. And we know that's a fact too
We should invest, but we don't need to, currently. It is because we're comfortable about the energy base that we keeps on blaming drains or other skills for the low resource/gain of energy. Im other games, I need to invest on energy stats to keep on par with foes, or againsts other players. It is because the energy investment is fomented, that I think energy control needs to be thought about throughout the whole fight against different foes, and not just against certain builds like what happens in ED.
This is the reason why I support the energy base nerf.

< Message edited by DeathGuard -- 8/14/2014 9:46:24 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 8
8/14/2014 10:22:56   
Remorse
Member

^

Death,

As I was discussing with trans I do support the idea of lowering the base and improving the scaling,

quote:

Well in that case I can agree with you on lowering the base an increasing the scaling.


Energy should be something that needs to be invested it, and currently certain build get away with not investing at it at all whilst having little sacrifice it skill usage (STR Builds)


They should lower it to the point where STR builds need to invest some energy into it in order to use skill (if that's their intent) but increase the scaling so builds that use a lot of energy can get the efficiency worth.


^My quote




As for stamina, most of those questions you have stated I answer in the original page I made,


Yes it will take time to make, but I still think it would be worth it,

In terms on complexity it doesn't need to be much more complex then rage so it shouldn't take much more then it took to make rage, nor is the concept much different, in the fact it is the same across all classes.


Imagine stamina as rage for a second,

Instead of a defense ignoring attack at full, instead it is a bar that starts full and decreases a you use skills costing it, however it increases by a set amount each turn (approximately 20% of the max).


How is that overly complicated?

The difference to stamina to energy is stamina regains itself per turn but it also has a lot lower base and in some cases you may not be able to use 2 stamina skills in 2 turns in a row but if you wait for the regain each turn you will eventually be able to use any stamina costing skill again eventually.


Lets take a look at the complexity of rage, like stamina it has skills effecting it (such as skills that drain it or increase it) so making a stamina cost would be like a skill that drains rage, not overly complex then again I am no coding expert.


You could argue rage is more complicated because it has to calculate amount to gain etc when you attack taking into account of defenses etc.





Then balance aside stamina would also add another parameter to the game which could be a refreshing mix up and something to make the game more interesting.





I will plan on making a better Stamina Points suggestion page which explains everything fully, and also explains how not overly complicated it is.

EDIT:

I just made a precise description of stamina points in the suggestions thread: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21784831





< Message edited by Remorse -- 8/14/2014 11:48:36 >
Epic  Post #: 9
8/14/2014 18:55:52   
Cyber Dream
Member

What if energy itself turned into a passive? Every class can have a fixed amount of energy which can't be regained. So all the energy gain and draining skills will have to go away. With this, each classes's skills will require the same amount of energy. So since the level cap is 40, come up with a number to support the use of 4 maxed out skills and make the cost for the 4 maxed out skills the same for each class.
AQW Epic  Post #: 10
8/14/2014 19:33:53   
Mother1
Member

@ Cyber dream

Doing this would not only cause the classes to become more similar, but it would also destroy certain kinds of builds. Not to mention all the work the staff would have to do making up new skills to replace the energy drainers and gainers.

Epic  Post #: 11
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