=ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Therril Oreb -> =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (7/21/2014 15:09:54)

With so much interest in developing and discussing balance in ED, it has become apparent that we need to organise! So, in order to make things easier on everyone, from developers to players, we are going to organise some specific threads that will hopefully make discussing this simpler and more effective.


Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread

This is where you can discuss everything balance related to the Mercenary class.
Got a skill that doesn't fit? Perhaps a combo that proves to be too strong and abusable. Discuss it here with everyone!

A few guidelines before we start:
  • All AE Forum rules are still in effect.
  • No comparisons between other classes. You can use certain facts to build your case on, but please do not turn this into a 'Merc vs X' thread.
  • Everyone's opinions are just that. Opinions. If you don't agree, that's fine. But, there is no need for rule breaking behaviour.
  • If you see a rule-breaking post, please refer to The Trinity: 1.) Report it 2.) Ignore it 3.) Move on. We would rather you have fun with the discussion and let the Forum Staff worry about rules broken.
  • Constructive Criticism is meant to improve something, not rant, whine and complain to be heard. If you are going to criticise, do so with the intent to give help, not tear down.

    Happy Discussing!





  • Noobatron x3000 -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (3/16/2014 17:33:47)

    I think the main thing for merc's is the hybrid armour needs a nerf on the %'s for sure it's far to rewarding for the cost.

    I think static smash could use a buff of some sort I'm not sure how to go about this every other class has a guaranteed way of getting varying levels of mana back , If a merc gets blocked on smash its potentially game over. perhaps lower the drain and return and make it unblockable ?




    Xendran -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (3/16/2014 17:53:41)

    I think the most important immediate issues for mercenaries are how useless adrenaline is (You will very frequently get more damage by striking than by using adrenaline, and issues with it's energy regain skill.
    Adrenaline would be significantly more useful and well designed with something like this:

    Adrenaline Rush
    Smash an enemy, consuming all of your current rage;
    Ignores a % of 45% of defences ignored based on consumed rage;
    Increases accuracy and damage by a % of consumed rage points;
    Cost: 120 Energy +10 per level
    
    Weapon: Club
    
    (For example: if you have 50% of your rage bar, you will ignore 22.5% defences)
    
        Level 1:  2.50% of Rage Points (35% Increased Accuracy and +35 Damage @ Level 40 w/ full Rage Bar of 1400 Points)
        Level 2:  2.85%
        Level 3:  3.20%
        Level 4:  3.55%
        Level 5:  3.90%
        Level 6:  4.25%
        Level 7:  4.60%
        Level 8:  4.95%
        Level 9:  5.30%
        Level 10: 5.65% of Rage Points (79% Increased Accuracy and +79 Damage @ level 40 w/ full Rage Bar of 1400 Points)
    


    As for energy regain, to make swords more viable, something like this should be considered:

    Static Blow
    Strike an enemy, absorbing their energy as a percentage of damage done.
    If this skill is blocked you will still recover the full amount of energy.
    Cost: 0 (1 Turn)
    
    Weapon: All
    
        Level 1:  41% Conversion 
        Level 2:  44% Conversion 
        Level 3:  47% Conversion 
        Level 4:  50% Conversion 
        Level 5:  53% Conversion 
        Level 6:  56% Conversion 
        Level 7:  59% Conversion 
        Level 8:  62% Conversion 
        Level 9:  65% Conversion 
        Level 10: 68% Conversion
    




    You can find my full class revamps Here.




    kosmo -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (3/17/2014 4:06:40)

    static smash being blokable has alwaise been a problem for merc, but in the last balance update, insted of nerfing it and making it unblokable, they have decided to overpower BC, which is just instoppable if looped.

    as i merc my self, i would nerf the hp return of BC to 50% of the strenght gained (from 60%)




    RageSoul -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (3/17/2014 7:42:05)

    Static Smash and Hybrid Armor are 2 skills that this class has to depend on .

    However , SS can't be 1) used with Swords , thus lacking variety and 2) doesn't guarantee Energy regain . Multiple suggestions are already made before for SS so i'll just go on with Hybrid Armor issues .

    Defintion / Description :

    * Hybrid Armor is a Mercenary class-only Tier I skill that grants bonus Defense and Resistance based on a percent of your Defense and Resistance , regardless of amount of Dexterity and Technology . Immune to Heart Attack and Azrael's Torment effects .

    * NOTE : Well this is not really needed but i just added here just in case .


    The Problem :

    The main issue is that it lies through the odds of getting First Strike and its Energy cost . It's not worth activating it while not getting it wasted thanks to the Energy Skills( like Static Grenade and Assimilation ) , Cores , Field Medic and other stuff to beef up Rage just to bypass its bonus potential . Also , this leaves you defenseless due to it depending on First Strikes ( first turn initiation ) so when early-turn burst damage comes and you activate it after wards , that's more Rage for them and more turns to waste . So here's a solution for that .

    NEW HYBRID ARMOR ( Revamp Passive ) :

    Passive : Grants bonus Defense and Resistance based on % of base Dexterity and Technology

    Level 1 : 5%
    Level 2 : 7%
    Level 3 : 9%
    Level 4 : 11%
    Level 5 : 13%
    Level 6 : 15%
    Level 7 : 17%
    Level 8 : 18%
    Level 9 : 19%
    Level 10 : 20%

    Active : Removes the passive bonus but drastically increases your Defense and Resistance based on % . Not affected by debuffs . Lasts for 4 turns

    Level 1 : 25%
    Level 2 : 30%
    Level 3 : 35%
    Level 4 : 39%
    Level 5 : 43%
    Level 6 : 47%%
    Level 7 : 51%
    Level 8 : 54%
    Level 9 : 57%
    Level 10 : 60%

    Energy Cost : 140 ( + 20 Per Level )

    Requirements : none ( just so any build can be used )

    Level Requirement : 1

    EDIT ( 3 / 17 / 14 ) --> Edited the current values .






    Xendran -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (3/17/2014 8:14:41)

    Hybrid armor is already really good




    RageSoul -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (3/17/2014 8:31:09)

    @Xendran

    Care to explain how ? For me , it still forces Merc players to activate it at their first turn / First Strike .




    Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (3/17/2014 8:37:56)

    Before HA was given its last buff, the values were this: http://prntscr.com/31ll0y - this proved to be too little, hence why it was given a buff to its current values: http://prntscr.com/31ll3e
    You should go in-between the two, since the previous one proved to be a bit too weak, whilst the current one is a bit too strong.




    RageSoul -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (3/17/2014 8:40:08)

    @Trans
    Ahh , forgot about its current values are higher than i wrote on the revamp idea . Thanks for the notice .




    kosmo -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (3/17/2014 9:06:45)

    i think that hibrid is balanced in 1v1, but it could give more problems in 2v2.





    santonik -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (3/17/2014 13:45:20)



    1. Mercenary need energy gain move whit sword. http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21579342


    2. Independent skill tree skills .
    It is now two characters of the same skill in treeskill . (double strike) If that change now so there will always be no need of thinking. What if the two would be independent skill. This would not affect the second awkwardly.



    3. artillery strike. This user loses now too much. especially at high lvl. If this does (supposedly) hard blow. you lose ALWAYS defense. (thanks to the support). (all other multi stables operate in the same with the defense. (tech / dex). these all have in common the same power?? But the defense loses a lot of support. rage and critical are no longer as big role as it should be., this eats quite a lot of attack power.

    4. Adrenaline Rush This is probably the game's weakest link. (too bad) I do like the basic idea. to gain extra rage. Strike one is better now than in the Adrenaline Rush.

    Oneself into a 2 exchange conditions to mind.
    Choose one or Think up a better suggestion.
    Your idea may be brighter than mine.

    --- Do not consume energy. receive the same benefits as past.
    --- Makes strike attack in addition to this.


    5. Bunkker buster

    Rising damage to end lvl. 10 lvl is minimal more damage than 7lvl and cost more energy (waste energy).

    Skill Level
    Level 1: 200 Physical Damage
    Level 2: 220 Physical Damage
    Level 3: 240 Physical Damage
    Level 4: 260 Physical Damage
    Level 5: 280 Physical Damage
    Level 6: 290 Physical Damage
    Level 7: 300 Physical Damage
    Level 8: 310 Physical Damage
    Level 9: 320 Physical Damage
    Level 10: 330 Physical Damage
    This need little buff.

    To this
    Level 6: 300 Physical Damage
    Level 7: 320 Physical Damage
    Level 8: 340 Physical Damage
    Level 9: 360 Physical Damage
    Level 10: 380 Physical Damage


    http://epicduelwiki.com/w/Bunker_Buster


    6. Intimidate

    This is not the most optimal corresponding str opponents. Since this takes a bit of time off the str. Str removal to take too little damage from On most. it does not affect the overall damage.

    Primary/Gun--- So this is now affected at all
    Stregth stats --- So this has a direct impact.

    It would be good if this would affect a whole. I mean this.
    Today, the amount of damage to the str stat, Primary / Gun and str based skills.

    Stats give 300 damage.
    +
    Primary / Gun gives another 300 damage. (Poor model)

    This gives a total damage for 600 damage.

    Today, it is difficult to remove over 50 + stats (str) This will remove about 100 damage. (Poor model)
    Still, the opponent can get to 500 damage. it is a lot of it.
    I have not taken skilltree skills to do this. Because you might expect they also raising more damage.

    I've been thinking that the new Intimidate. Must directly affect the total damage.
    The total damage includes these exchange terms.

    Primary / Gun (300 damage) + Str stats (300 damage) = 600 damage total

    That is (str) with skill Berzerker
    Primary / Gun (300 damage) + Str stats (300 damge) + Skilltree skill (50% Berzerker) = 900 total damage.


    Exchange condition are these options.


    Option 1
    --- Intimitade weaken the opponent% based. This would affect the overall damage in a cleanly.

    Or

    option2
    like Old intimitade but much stronger than before.
    --- Intimitade are much more effective str remover. (Affects only the str stats)
    Again, this would happen. It would be nice to see a 0 str opponents. ^ ^




    7. Block (skill tree skills)


    ---double strike
    ---intimitade
    ---berzerker
    ---maul
    ---static smash

    all those can be all block. This is too big weakness now. (block)
    This skills need more need help.

    1 option. more damage (now wasting too much damage if enemy can block you. dont forgot you using energy too)

    2 option. more accuracy. always hit damage. unable to block those skills. (maybe too strong, but remember there is defence buff too. those can be stop heavy damagers. )

    3 option. decrease energy cost. (block decrease 90% now yours damage out. Energy wasted now less)

    4 option. When enemy block you. you can doing at least 50-75% (random) damage. no ultimate wasted energy.


    8. Reuirements (skill tree skills)


    Hybrid armor: take out support requirements. Or at least weak that. (hhhmmm...)
    Andrealine rush: Take out all requirements. This is maybe game weakest skill now.
    Surcigal strike: Take off dexterity reuirements. It kill too heavyly high energy player.
    Bunker buster: Take offdex requirements. It weaken a lot energy players.



    9. Double strike. Make this better damage or make it cheaper to use.


    10. Blood commander
    Only broplem is this. When enemy removes this buff. Merc lose that secondary heal too. What if that secondary heal cant weaken at all. But it lose str only???

    Biggest benefit is HIGH support players. ( i know that because i tested this many times) Benefit is this. they can heal self in better ways. Pure support players is now under powered.












    comicalbike -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (3/17/2014 15:06:30)

    i agree with what you say but i am sorry no one else does but good luck




    GearzHeadz -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (3/25/2014 15:45:30)

    Honestly the heal shouldn't even be there from blood commander. They said they wanted to remove all secondary traits on skills a while ago, or at least that's what their excuse was for removing the energy return on reflex boost. The health return from it is stronger than mark of blood AND gives str AND lasts longer AND is cheaper AND has no requirements...




    edwardvulture -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (3/26/2014 1:13:35)

    if they really stuck by that assimilation wouldn't exist, so wouldn't bunker buster, plasma cannon, surgical strike, or really anything with some sort of secondary effect.




    GearzHeadz -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (3/26/2014 17:54:07)

    Those are different. I guess I didn't word it properly in my other post, but they wanted to remove those generating effects off of stat buffing skills. And by those skills I mean reflex boost and blood commander. That's what they had said, yet they only removed reflex boost's energy gen and not blood commander's health gen.




    edwardvulture -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (3/26/2014 20:18:11)

    well, the way the staff worded it, they said that it wasn't clear if people used reflex boost for the dex or the energy regen. A similar logic could be applied: do people use cheap shot for the defense ignore, or the crit chance? and also: do people use lvl 1 surgical strike for the (usually) 200 damage or do they use it to remove rage?




    Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (3/27/2014 1:50:00)

    The effect was a bit contradictory - blocks increase and only damage taken in used to give you EP back, which meant less likely from melee attacks, and mostly unblockables. It wasn't removal of all skills with two effects, but the effect was quite weak (albeit a bit useful at times), and as I've said, contradictory. There's a difference between Reflex and Blood Commander, because the latter likely 'pays' few more +stat to get stronger effect. Or so I think.




    santonik -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (6/20/2014 20:01:20)




    CLASS: MERCENARY (40lvl) (example build)

    HP: 1000
    Energy: 1720

    STR: 23+13
    DEX:42+33
    TECH: 43+33
    SUP: 20

    SKILL TREE

    MAX---1lvl---1lvl
    1lvl---1lvl ---6lvl
    1lvl---NON---1lvl
    MAX---NON---MAX

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This build is dependent on energy. Today, it is too easy to play this kind of builds out. (almoust every build beat this easyly)

    Extreme dangerous is BLOODMAGES over powered PARASITE. IT IS very twisting this balance. Same thing is Techmages (endless energy)

    This builds attacks using energy. Yes energy. I wondering WHY those attacks is so weak. BUNKKER AND SURGICAL STRIKE.
    ---BUNKKER is weak damage. unless coming critical or rage. other ways it is cost much energy. This is too dependent on luck.!!!
    ---SURGICAL STRIKE. THIS is good damage BUT cooldown is too much. first cooldown is ok. BUT. Second cooldown is too big. Will this reduce the cool down a bit. 1-2 even though the rounds.
    Rough example. 4 turn coming. You can use first SURGICAL STRIKE. Now you need wait that second cooldown. (2-3 turn) and using again that SURGICAL STRIKE. Now it is suicidal to do two surgical strike.
    (energy cost freak out.)

    --- MAX lvl STATIC SMASH. It is annoying. block is too good counter this. WHY this can be block ???. OTher energy skill is guaranteed hits. This is very imbortant skill now. Even i have 1720 ENERGY.
    Damage isnt good now. That must buff something ways. Maybe. More damage even that block.???
    ---SWORDS: This give few extra stats, BUT you loose (maybe) yours most important skill. STATIC SMASH. This is maybe ultimate penalty.

    ---Opponent/s MEDIC HEAL heal counter too well almoust all damage. Same thing is MARK OF BLOOD. MARK OF BLOOD make oppenent/s immortals. Why i see this way? MOB users using extreme hard attacks and gain VERY GOOD healt backs. I need using my energy every single turn.
    If i want attack. (only defence is good heal to MEDIC HEAL.) 2-3 strike and it is gone.

    ---OOboy those multi debuffs. Those is EXTREME dangerous. i cant anything way counter those. Even i have MAX lvl HYBRID ARMOR. (my defence is already relative low)



    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    EVEry player is STR or 5 focus players. exception is techmage. pure tech / dex build.

    It is now considered a balance to them. builds. (it would appear)
    All these things which are the three in the middle ground are the underdogs. (It would appear)
    Only the STR ​​builds are doing well with his sword. profits can indeed come. But probably less than 5% of the facilities. Now, I'm talking about an example of that build.

    This begs the question. should raise DEX / TECH-based power attacks? All other class except techmage. Techmage is already severe impacts. thanks to energy control.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Question arises as to of what these high-energy players need?

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




    Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (7/21/2014 15:40:01)

    @ Santonik

    Energy parasite is designed to be more effective against high energy users that was the original point of it in the first place. If having energy to use your moves is your greatness weakness and your opponent exploits this with a move designed to counter your build then the problem isn't the skill but the build you made. If this is a problem to use such high energy or as well as don't max out your skills just in case this does happen.

    Leaving yourself open for this than coming to complain about when someone exploits you weakness isn't balance in the least but wanting to nerf what weakens you. Every build has to have a weakness and it just so happens that high energy users have a weakness to energy parasite that can be exploited.

    As for static smash. Of all the drainers/gainers here static smash is the strongest meaning it returns the most energy to the user for free. While all the other energy drainers/gainers are granteed to work they don't return nearly as much energy as static smash does so the drawback of static smash is a fair one as well.




    The berserker killer -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (7/21/2014 21:23:47)

    Okay I won't complain. This skill is a indeed a great skill, just slightly OP and the reason for that is because it's basically a Elongated Steroid Version of Mark Of Blood. It gives you a ton of strength at a high cost but lets face it.... Which classes are the only ones that can actually take enough Energy on the first turn in order to oppose this skill?

    -Mage? Assimilation might if you have a str merc doing 1v1.
    -Merc? Yes
    -BH and CH? Yes
    -TLM? Yes
    -BM? No

    That looks okay right? Nearly every class should be able to stop your average lvl 40 merc from getting 650 primary strength for 4 turns with about 27% HP regen for each and every skill. Now look at this, what can actually counter this skill as a whole?

    -Azraels
    -Intimidate....nahh only affects STR for 3 out of the 4 turns

    What I'm suggesting is one out of two things...

    1) Keep the scaling on intimidate exactly the same, just ADD a new feature to it that affects HP regen on BOTH Blood Commander and Mark of Blood. I am not sure how it will work but my thought is that a description should be added to intimidate that says "Decreases any HP regeneration skill casted by the target by 50% of Str Reduction". Example: If my intimidate reduces str by 40 (50%=20), and the enemy has a Blood Commander that raised his str by 40 (27% HP regain) then he will be left with 7% (27-20) regain.

    2) I don't like the idea of nerfing things because it just removes things from the game so I am all for adding new features to this game. The new feature I am suggesting is increasing intimidates effect to 4 turns to counter all str moves such as Field Commander, and Blood Commander while keeping the Original Effects the same. In my opinion this skill is massively underpowered anyway

    Guys, I am not trying to make any of you mad. If you don't believe that Intimidate needs a buff or that Blood Commander should be affected by intimidate then please say so in a respectful manner. I'm only on forums because players have asked me to create a Forums account.




    Dual Thrusters -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (7/21/2014 23:18:04)

    Mercenaries are vulnerable to shields, even if it makes them rage faster. Though I have to say that they are absolute monsters in 2v2...




    dfo99 -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (7/24/2014 3:55:49)

    why when the reflex boost lose the mana gain effect the blood commander not lose the hp gain effect? the reason for remove was that they not want skills with 2 effects.




    Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (7/24/2014 4:22:27)

    @ Df099

    That effect is the only thing separating blood commander from field commander. Remove it and you might as well remove blood commander since it will be a weaker version of the original field commander.




    Ilovesquab -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (7/24/2014 5:56:56)

    quote:

    Which classes are the only ones that can actually take enough Energy on the first turn in order to oppose this skill?
    -Mage? Assimilation might if you have a str merc doing 1v1.
    -Merc? Yes
    -BH and CH? Yes
    -TLM? Yes
    -BM? No
    That looks okay right? Nearly every class should be able to stop your average lvl 40 merc from getting 650 primary strength for 4 turns with about 27% HP regen for each and every skill.


    this is a misleading statement, merc can only drain 300 odd energy with atom smash same with tlm. Tech mage can only drain 260 max with 130 str. Bountys again can drain 350 and blood mages 100 odd every turn. Only class they can drain energy is cyber hunter and they need to use a lot of energy and have very high tech to do this. Having high tech means they will get back 40 energy on static. So even if a cyber drains energy the merc will drain the cyber next turn making sure he can buff.

    Another correction is the %.. Blood commander gives back 40% not 27% last i read. Correct me if i am wrong here.

    I really dont see any problem with mercs. Blood mages are annoying as hell with intimidate and bludgeon.




    Stonehawk -> RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2014 13:58:38)

    Since adrenaline is worthless (there's a robot that uses it's effect ON ALL ALLIES FOR NO ENERGY COST), I think it could be replaced with some unblockable skill, since all merc skills that depend on strength are blockable... how about fire scythe? It's unblockable, can be used with any weapon and needs support to be used, which means the STR ONLY builds won't be seen everywhere. Also needs 3 turns cooldown, so it wouldn't make mercs OP, but give them a useful move against HIGH DEX builds, for example. (This skills seems a bit worthless for mages btw, but I won't discuss mage balance here)




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