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8/11/2011 16:28:00   
Ubear
Member

quote:

true but for teh sake of this arguement lets just you and I are both TLM's using the exact same skills and the stats are only slightly different as to not have wasted points
:) hmm if we had the same build and same class, either way one of us is going to win. Technically we should each win 50% of the time against eachother. But luck will be a factor here because it matters who goes first and who crits, blocks and deflects the most

@xxomegafaustxx: Not forgetting that even with base stats we have a percentage to block, crit and deflect. And we don't know how much raising dexterity increases your blocking chance and same with dupport for blocking.

< Message edited by Ubear -- 8/11/2011 16:31:04 >

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AQ Epic  Post #: 176
8/11/2011 16:31:24   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


 actully if we both had the exact same build to an extent and we fought 10 times i go first 5 and you go first 5 you should win every fight everytime becuase you have 15.25 levels on me from the forumulas on page four

we might be starting to get off topic so maybe we could contunie this in a PM i would rather like this thread to reach 10 pages

< Message edited by One Winged Angel1357 -- 8/11/2011 16:32:28 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 177
8/11/2011 16:33:42   
DeathGuard
Member

OWA and Ubear: You're forgetting another factor, statregy, the best player will win even if their builds are the same but the way one uses it, is very different
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 178
8/11/2011 16:36:31   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


 Cyber that is a possiblity but when both parties are using the same build its almost to a point where you can predict your enemies move beleive me i did this test with one of my faction members
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 179
8/11/2011 16:39:07   
MirageD
Member

quote:

You are comparing one user to many. That is an overstated generalization. Can the average nonvarium player achieve such a status? My answer is yes but in this context no. Why? Because it takes years and months of commitment not every nonvarium player can do. And we're not talking about "THE POTENTIAL OF AN INDIVIDUAL", we are talking about "THE COMMUNITY's POTENTIAL TO GROW", and in a more specific sense, the underpowered nonvarium tier.


i agree....hope is great and she's a great player....but she has played a lot more hours than most.....i am a varium 2v2 player with a higher stat and i think it's because i have varium and therefore more enhancements...i agree that there should be a gap...but not as large as it is now....i also agree with those that have posted that enhancements should have been limited to primary and armor....but oh well....too late now
AQW Epic  Post #: 180
8/11/2011 16:43:46   
xxomegafaustxx
Member

quote:

Wait forget how many level 33 Non-varuims can get 200,000 credits. How many level 33 Non-Varuims do you see in PvP? I see barely none.


A very solid rebuttal. The average Nonvarium players discontinued because they must survive the game's platform, and not enjoy it.

@cyberbakio ryugan

You are also forgetting another factor that is the amount of stats: The ability and capacity of a user to engineer and maximize one's attributes in order to increase the likelihood of blocking, deflecting, less damage taken, etc. But the amount of stats have held a ouvert pronounced effect on the PvP platform because of the GAP. Sure, if you have the strategy and excellent expertise to create the best build you'll be sucessful. But not as sucessful as the very same user who can stockpile strategically on stats which renders beneficial towards their builds.

Pair a nonvaium lvl 33 mage with a varium lvl 33 mage. Both are strategically grounded and adept in battle but one has 40 or 50 more stats than the other. I ask, who will win the majority of times? And this answer is very simple, the varium mage because the stats has marginalized a far superior advantage to the nonvarium user. And it is in this scenario that strategy has no value. It doesn't matter at this point if the nonvarium mage has the best possible strategy because strategy, as we see currently, it having a less empowering effect to the user.

If the user wants to be successful, all he/she needs to do is accumulate more stats. This should never be the case; users should also be equally rewarded upon have strategic and creative builds and not those who purchased. Because strategy in a sense is way more fulfilling to a user than buying a game just to win.

Strategy can last whereas varium can't. Strategy should not be undermined by the too unfair stat bridge between the nonvarium and varium player.

< Message edited by xxomegafaustxx -- 8/11/2011 16:57:02 >
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 181
8/11/2011 16:45:43   
DeathGuard
Member

Finally got what, I wanted thanks OWA. Turkish you said that they should be like new hope right? All nonvariums change to TLM, and get her gear and copy her build. Now what you get into a fight but your ratio is not like her.Hmmmm? What's wrong, oh the way she fights, nonvariums can't be like her, all have different style strategies. Anyways your point doesn't give any reason to be like her.

< Message edited by cyberbakio ryugan -- 8/11/2011 16:51:19 >
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 182
8/11/2011 16:47:27   
IsaiahtheMage
Member

@omegafaust Exactly. Not very much.
AQW Epic  Post #: 183
8/11/2011 16:58:50   
TurkishIncubus
Member

@xxomegafaustxx , @Callisto , @OWA

your first statement is "New Hope is extraordinary player and we need to balance the game for average non varium players"

What is the average non varium player in your opinion? 1-2 good weapons with no enhance (they dont have aux or gun) , playing 20 battles than logoff. If we balance the Gap for them than variums will have 0 advantage , and some players like New Hope will be 10x better than full varium (1,000$ spent) players. In this case i think varium will loss its worth.

If New Hope could do any other non varium can do the same thing.Sry but its my opinion.

the next statement is " New Hope alwasy used the best class for the battle mode"

This is class balance discussion not about the gap , also if i know correct there isnt a rule that non variums cant be merc or tactical merc + there isnt a rule that the other classes cant be successful

quote:

This is incorrect.Not everybody is the same,not everybody has same amount of free time,same class,same skills...Just because one player is on top of leaderboard,you cannot expect everybody to able to get there as well.It isn't logical.For making logical statements you should use an average player,not the best.


in my opinion you are wrong , varium is not giving huge stat advantage against non variums , varium is giving time advantage , a non varium can be almost same with a varium player just playing much ( ex:New Hope) , im not saying its easy but it can happen.Like i said before if we balance the gap for average non variums than some hard playing non variums will be better than full varium players , dont you think its a waste of money when you will lose to a non varium (you spent hundreds of dolars)?

Also you need to balance the game for average varium players everybody hasnt got eggzookas + stun guns + delta weapons , there is varium players with non limited rare armors and beta weapons.In my opinion they should be atleast equal to a good non varium player

In my opinion a good non varium player can be equal to an average varium player. I want to give an example of my turkish friend Woochi , i think he is a really good non varium player , i kill some varium players in 2 hits but when i battled him he almost won me there was 1 turn difference (and i started the match). New Hope is not extraordinary , there is really good non varium players playing better than some varium one.I almost play 300 wins every day i witness how can a good non varium be dangereous.

This is all from me , i will not write on this thread anymore , i thinks Devs can decide what is better for the game.These are my opinions i wish i helped you about a productive discuss.

Turk out.


Epic  Post #: 184
8/11/2011 17:06:42   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


 turk your right not every varium has that gear but i logged on did 20 fights and recorded the most common gear i saw for my data which is why Stun ______ Delta *insert name here* Tesla Armor and Bunnyzooka are used for my data
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 185
8/11/2011 17:13:48   
IsaiahtheMage
Member

@Turk You just named New Hope and Woochi. You just named level 33 Pro Non-Varuim players. Again not average player. She is was a Merc and TLM she is best fit for 2 vs 2. He is a BH. You just named two Pro players who probably put months or even a year or two into this game. When doing comparisons between a entire community do the average player not the best. Not all are the same as the best.

< Message edited by IsaiahtheMage -- 8/11/2011 17:16:08 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 186
8/11/2011 17:21:39   
xxomegafaustxx
Member

@Turkish

I am going to once again direct you to this analogy: I am in an assembly with 5000 individuals. I am a motivational speaker and I happen to be very famous individual, close to that of Bill Gates. My closing remarks on the conference is that "Everyone can be like me because I've made it through". I did it in the long run and so can you". Back to present tense, such an application can be seen in New Hope as the character I speak of: giving aspiration to the meager and underprivileged users who believe that they can also achieve the same results. This goes with your statement:

quote:

If New Hope could do any other non varium can do the same thing.


But I'm going to challenge that statement: The question of the matter is, after I leave the conference, how many of will follow my trail of success? Will it be every-single-member belonging to the 5000 individuals who attended the conference I spoke of? Will everyone be successful? Will every and each individual achieve the same results as I, ultimately transcending into a path similar to mine? Or will it just be 10 or maybe 20 out of the 5000 who reach their potentials. And if so, how many?

Your rebuttal seems to focus on the potential of the player and not the ability of the players within the community to grow. That's not what we're here to discuss and this is what I'm arguing against. If you were the very same man in the conference delivering the "motivational speech", you won't expect everyone to follow your success but rather a minority of the people you have talked to. In reality, not everyone has that sort of potential; of course everyone has potential both not everyone has the SAME potential. You can't compare Bill Gates to Obama; of course both are successful but they have achieved success on a different scale of potentials. Similary, you can argue that each and everyone of us has the capability to accomplish such a feat; but that feat can only be determined by the measurable potential of the person.

How about if I ask users of this forum the same question but in a different matter: Why isn't anyone here a "Bill Gates"?

Of course, you can't measure potential. And you can't compare the potential of people because everyone is differrent. Think about this way: A bamboo plant and a flower: One will grow faster and the other not, one needs more water and the other not. You can't compare these too because they are both different. Everyone is different plant and not the same.

Ask any student in your class or your teacher. Of course, everyone can be the "best in the class" but not everyone can. And why is this the case? Because different people have different expectations on how they want to exceed and bring about their potential. You may be satisfied with studying for 15min whilst the smarty pants student may study for hours and hours of work. Conclusively, you can't compare the two.

quote:

in my opinion you are wrong , varium is not giving huge stat advantage against non variums , varium is giving time advantage , a non varium can be almost same with a varium player just playing much ( ex:New Hope)


As of currently, it is. Use the example of the nonvarium average user in your description; can he/she fair equally and compete with you? And my answer is no, he/she can't. Take if for example, your average nonvarium lvl 30 user. Can he/she compete against your 40+ stats?

What we're proposing is LESSENING the GAP and not fully closing it. Consider the stages in Alpha and early Beta when the stat differences were 20. DId you see varium players leave? Were any angered because the advantage was a too "small" one? Please reconsider and read my analogies and posts.


< Message edited by xxomegafaustxx -- 8/11/2011 17:37:11 >
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 187
8/11/2011 17:52:52   
IsaiahtheMage
Member

@omegafaust Exactly. Going by what Turkish is saying that is like saying. Just because everyone is American or Asian or African or any other race. They can all achiveve the same thing. That is not rationale. Or like you compared with the plants. Just because their both plants does not mean since one can do this the other can as well. It is realistic. Goes the same ED players. Their are thounsands of us. Just because one of us did one thing does NOT mean we all can.

< Message edited by IsaiahtheMage -- 8/13/2011 23:17:20 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 188
8/11/2011 18:43:16   
edwardvulture
Member

Achieve the same thing? That is not true. You have to win robot purely by luck. And the robot is a huge advantage.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 189
8/11/2011 18:51:40   
Shadronica
Member

I would like for everyone to understand that the only reason I brought up B9000 and New Hope was that I find that their personalities are exemplary. B9000 was just as comfortable chatting with high level varium players as it was to speak with anyone. He treated everyone equally.

New Hope has a great determination and even in the face of adversity she is a role model to non varium players. Yes she has always used the best class for 2v2 and I would suggest that non varium players follow her example in the 2v2 environment. She also proved her worth in 1v1 taking out the daily as well.

Comparing New Hope to any other varium 2v2 player is totally irrelevent. She has proven herself worthy of respect in anyone's eyes. My alt Shadist has played with and against New Hope on many many occasions and I have always found her to be most civil.

What I am trying to say is that for me these players deserve their respect because of their attitude. Neither B9000 nor New Hope feel that they are below anyone just because they are non varium.

Now I still feel that the gap has widened with the stat enhancements. The enhancements themselves are far too costly for both varium and non varium players and I would hope that the game developers will work towards easing this problem for a start.

I also feel that the retraining is a huge problem especially for non varium players. I remember helping a non varium friend with his build and he misunderstood what I was saying and totally messed up the build. I asked him to retrain and he didn't have the credits to do it so he was stuck with an awful build. So he made a whole new account and started from the beginning again. This shouldn't happen.

I also have a non varium alt so I realise how hard it is to save up the credits just to buy the next weapons or armor let alone enhance especially while trying to level up.

I have experienced EpicDuel with my alts on all levels of the platform so to some degree I speak with a good deal of experience.

There is simply no need for varium or non varium players to treat each other with disrespect. We are all here to hopefully have some fun and some challenges.

I do find that the game needs some tweaks (such as the above mentioned) to ease the pain for all of us.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 190
8/13/2011 1:19:59   
xxomegafaustxx
Member

Well, it seems that most here have expended their knowledge and opinions on this matter to the fullest. In a conscientious attempt to revive this, I seek collective consensus and clarification to the users browsing this forum on how we can resolve the GAP issue before the discussion becomes too monotonous. To what I interpolated from this discussion, we all agree in some mere form that nonvarium players are undermined and underpowered and that to remedy such a problem, we must examine critically the "obtuse" and enlarged effects created by enhancements on the game's platform.

To articulate the understanding reached in this forum, I recommend users browse through the posts prior as they have provided irrefutable and intellectual evidence regarding this subject. As a personal resolve, I would like to see the GAP lessened as exampled in the early Alpha and Beta stages where the stat marginalization was 20*, no more or no less. (*This statistic correlates to two fully enhanced nonvarium and varium players).

< Message edited by xxomegafaustxx -- 8/13/2011 1:29:09 >
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 191
8/13/2011 1:37:35   
edwardvulture
Member

Well, if we cut the amount of all enhancements slots by half, there would be a huge lessening of the gap.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 192
8/13/2011 1:53:50   
CivicChaos
Member
 

 Well... The GAP isn't really that big! In fact!

When your facing a varuim user chances of winning are depending on your build. I think my build either is really good or is just really lucky agaisnt vars. :o

I think varuims should get a boost even though im currently non-varuim. I might sound crazy to. But it's the truth varuim players need another boost.
Post #: 193
8/13/2011 2:05:23   
edwardvulture
Member

@Civic Are you still using that 5 bonus? How does that fare against strength tlm's
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 194
8/13/2011 2:12:09   
CivicChaos
Member
 

 I beat 5 out of 9 today :/
But I did Crit/Block ALOT of their moves though sos... maybe their OP'ed if they didn't block.

Maybe i just got lucky today :/
Post #: 195
8/13/2011 2:43:09   
xxomegafaustxx
Member

@CivicChaos

Spontaneity in one's battles should be refrained from further discussion if such inflects on one's chances to win or not win in a given scenario. We're here to discuss the GAP and alternatives to combat or lessen the problem and not provide single events involving personal encounters with varium users. (My apologies if I'm a bit blunt, but I feel that this discussion is not moving forward)

quote:

When your facing a varuim user chances of winning are depending on your build.

Of course, build is the fundamental aspect to how one yields victor in the battle. That is because build gives definition to how one utilizes stats to create essentially, different and creative "breadwinner" builds. However, if the same situation were to occur on the same level against a nonvarium and varium user, where both builds were adopted by each contestant and variables such as deflection, block, critical chances were undermined, the varium user would be gauranteed the majority of his wins.

My understanding thus far is acceptable regarding the above. But because of the GAP is so greatly enlarged, one's build becomes almost futile to the amount of stats that are piled up so greatly by a varium user. Consider what I have voiced on earlier regarding this subject:

quote:

quote:

OWA and Ubear: You're forgetting another factor, strategy, the best player will win even if their builds are the same but the way one uses it, is very different
@cyberbakio ryugan

You are also forgetting another factor that is the amount of stats: The ability and capacity of a user to engineer and maximize one's attributes in order to increase the likelihood of blocking, deflecting, less damage taken, etc. But the amount of stats have held a overt pronounced effect on the PvP platform because of the GAP. Sure, if you have the strategy and excellent expertise to create the best build you'll be sucessful. But not as successful as the very same user who can stockpile strategically on stats which renders beneficial towards their builds.

Pair a nonvaium lvl 33 mage with a varium lvl 33 mage. Both are strategically grounded and adept in battle but one has 40 or 50 more stats than the other. I ask, who will win the majority of times? And this answer is very simple, the varium mage because the stats has marginalized a far superior advantage to the nonvarium user. And it is in this scenario that strategy has no value. It doesn't matter at this point if the nonvarium mage has the best possible strategy because strategy, as we see currently, has a less empowering effect to the user.

If the user wants to be successful, all he/she needs to do is accumulate more stats. This should never be the case; users should also be equally rewarded upon have strategic and creative builds and not those who purchased. Because strategy in a sense is way more fulfilling to a user than buying just to win.



Also I'm quite curious as to your proposal:
quote:

I think varuims should get a boost even though im currently non-varuim. I might sound crazy to. But it's the truth varuim players need another boost.


Could you elaborate further?

< Message edited by xxomegafaustxx -- 8/13/2011 2:51:26 >
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 196
8/13/2011 8:32:09   
kwj3
Member

10 page lock THE AK'S ARE WATCHING 0_0


Anyway the gap is experience and the items, not the level.


Can we have a TOURNAMENT PLEASE.
Post #: 197
8/13/2011 11:40:41   
od
Member

The weapon gap is fine, we just need some higher leveld weapons and an aux that does not give str or require high amounts of str
Epic  Post #: 198
8/13/2011 11:55:55   
CivicChaos
Member
 

 Hmmm maybe I been mistaken... maybe the gap is too far :o
I guess I've never faced a tesla,delta maul, stun blaster, and eggzooka before in 1 go with all enchanced to support -_-
But not every varuim user has thoses weps. Most players with varuim user very little like maybe only armor varuim and primary and the rest free. Not every one buys all the latest things in ED.
The only problems I have with varuim builds are support builds with over 130 support.... and I've seen non-varuim tactmercs with over 120 support. Thats mostly why I think that the gap is low.
But im thinking that the gap is becomes farther and farther as we know it. 0_0
Post #: 199
8/13/2011 12:04:00   
  Digital X

Beep Beep! ArchKnight AQ / ED
quote:

I guess I've never faced a tesla,delta maul, stun blaster, and eggzooka before in 1 go with all enchanced to support -_-


Let me tell you, it hurts. Even though i am the same, but use the Staff as i am a TM.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 200
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