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Gears games: requiring urgent balancing

 
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7/25/2012 17:04:26   
ergotth
AQW Lore-titician


Ok, I basically play MQ a bit after the test, so I've seen a lot of events, and one event in particular always throw me out my mood: the Gear games
why? simple, ONLY ONE house wins with CRUSHING numbers: always Wolfblade.
I'm not complaying they win, I'm complaining the reason they win: the number of members in the wolfblade house is MASSIVE, simply because the houses represnt each base class in Dragonfable: warrior (wolfblade), mage (runehawk) and rogue (mistraven) and its already obvious how warrior is always the first choice to many players, you can just see in some of Dragonfable's foruns how Warrior seens to be the class mentioned by big part of the players comenting (expecially in the atealan class feedback posts, about 70% are talking about the class restricted to Warriors) and its obvious that more members in a house, faster they will build up waves cleaned, what means, they can build up almost 5 times what runehawk and mistraven can in matter of percentage.

What I'm saying it: we need a way to balance the houses's waves progress in a way, each house goes up proportionally. Its pretty frustrating seeing wolfblade at 100% while the other two houses barelly reached close to 50%, it means, EVERYONE seens to be playing in wolfblade while the other houses are struggling in a pathway to certain loss.

I'm not asking nerfings or any kind of reduction in wolfblade, I'm just asking that we think and work with proportions, fair and square.

If you play in Wolfblade, put your pride aside and open your eyes to help me making it fair
If you play in runehawk/mistraven, work with me to make a fair game, and not a frustration every year.
DF AQW  Post #: 1
7/25/2012 17:10:20   
Gamemastersam
Member

the staff cant give any house an unfair advantage. who ever wins, wins. if it wasnt like that People would rage. And what about the future? what if mages become the coolest class? If WB is the most popular theres nothing wrong with that. And since, when WB wins the GG again i can rub it in to thos who say WB sucks

< Message edited by Gamemastersam -- 7/25/2012 17:41:21 >


_____________________________

DF MQ  Post #: 2
7/25/2012 17:25:08   
ScytheOfShadows
Member

The MQ staff has given an unfair advantage to WB in the past... but it didn't stop them from winning.

The point to note is that there are a variety of factors as to why WB players win every year.

1. Too many players they can field.

2. Since everyone is forced to use their House's GG mecha, WB is given a big push since the GG is a WAR. And while WB mecha are MADE for Wars(while being useless when it comes to employing strategies), RH and MR mecha are made for longer, defensive battles. That in itself seems like a really, really, really GREAT idea.

3. Over-advertising. The first thing the WB House Leader says is to tell new players they won the last GEARS Games. It becomes a deadly cycle as more players join WB because they were winning, and because of more players they win more.
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 3
7/25/2012 18:06:18   
Hoggs Bison
Member

Speaking of Gears Games, will they be this Friday?

I'll be waiting for the newsletter on Thursday or Friday.
MQ  Post #: 4
7/25/2012 18:06:29   
forumlogin
Member

At some level, I think the WB players actually do work harder. :P
RH and MR tend to work at it for the first week or so and then they drop off; WB doesn't really do that. Whether it's from discouragement or whatever, I do think there's only so much help the staff can give to the other houses. RH and MR have already been given advantages before, and if they couldn't do it then, then quite honestly, unless you can somehow get your house to work even harder (and KEEP working harder) there's nothing the staff can do to 'balance' it.
DF MQ  Post #: 5
7/25/2012 18:10:59   
Hoggs Bison
Member

I think RH is too underrated, WB will probably win, but I would LOVE it if RH could win.

< Message edited by Hoggs Bison -- 7/25/2012 18:11:21 >
MQ  Post #: 6
7/25/2012 18:28:35   
dffan3457990
Member

i wouldnt count on teh ggs EVER bein balancd properly. theyve favord wb ever since they started an that hasnt changed an probly nevr will. theres been tons of threds jus like this 1 for years but teh ggs still suck.
if ggs couldnt be fixed when mq had a big staff what are teh odds of them being fixed wit a small staff? staff mite as well scrap teh games, give wb trophy, an relese weapons for all houses. saves all teh flamin an rage that teh games alway cauze.
Post #: 7
7/25/2012 18:38:42   
Thiefboy109
Legendary AK!!!


There are systems in place to try to balance it, but the problem is that WB is just outright the most popular house and has the best GG mecha for wars.

WolfBlade's actual mechs have nearly no use strategically outside of the GGs, but for fighting wars they are definitely the best.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 8
7/25/2012 18:44:44   
ScytheOfShadows
Member

quote:

i wouldnt count on teh ggs EVER bein balancd properly. theyve favord wb ever since they started an that hasnt changed an probly nevr will. theres been tons of threds jus like this 1 for years but teh ggs still suck.


For once, I gotta agree with you.

WARS are made for WARriors. Nuff said. That's like saying the GGs is a test as to who can climb a tree the fastest, and Wolfblade is the monkey, while Mystraven is a bird and Runehawk, an elephant.
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 9
7/25/2012 20:03:13   
unclejohn
Member
 

For what it's worth I think Ergotth has a great idea. The idea of wins being proportionate is an awesome thought.
Lets throw some numbers out: Wolblade 100 members
Runehawk 50 members
Mystraven 25 members
Okay...to give evryone the same target number of say 300 would be silly. Lets try a target number of House members x 5(or what have you). That way, proportionatley everyone is equal.
Its not a perfect idea given betrayals but its a start.
Post #: 10
7/25/2012 20:06:38   
forumlogin
Member

It would be so helpful if I actually knew what the staff did the last few Games to balance it out :I
Perhaps then it would make it somewhat easier to get these threads to stop respawning. XD
DF MQ  Post #: 11
7/25/2012 20:24:32   
PD
Member

quote:

For what it's worth I think Ergotth has a great idea. The idea of wins being proportionate is an awesome thought.
Lets throw some numbers out: Wolblade 100 members
Runehawk 50 members
Mystraven 25 members
Okay...to give evryone the same target number of say 300 would be silly. Lets try a target number of House members x 5(or what have you). That way, proportionatley everyone is equal.
Its not a perfect idea given betrayals but its a start.


It's been done in the past and it failed miserably last year when WB again beat MR and RH by a combined 50% margin.

I for one would kill the GG by stabbing it a million times until it remains a bloodied heap of guts. It's absolutely horrid in concept and aftermath

< Message edited by PD -- 7/25/2012 20:25:56 >
AQ MQ  Post #: 12
7/25/2012 20:29:59   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


What if perhaps Runehawk and Mystraven used their talents against Wolfblade in the next GG? I mean stuff like having WB fight WB due to illusions and trickery occasionally when a WB member goes to battle and possibly having it count against WB and having it count towards both RH and MR.

< Message edited by The ND Mallet Guy -- 7/25/2012 20:31:01 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 13
7/25/2012 20:59:14   
stealthwings
Helpful


I think that the GG should not be in the format of a normal war, where there is a kill goal and the war ends when that kill goal is achieved.

There should be a time limit rather than a score limit. The games end after *Insert X amount of time here* and then whichever house had the most average wins per fighting member (Or something more complex to prevent people who fought once then stopped from bringing the house down too much) wins.

In regards to it being stacked, I do not know the numbers of last war so I cannot make a judgment. I think that WB has a significant advantage due to their previous victories (Which wouldn't really count as it being "stacked" in the same way that a massive numerical difference would), but I do not think that that alone caused their victory.


DF MQ  Post #: 14
7/25/2012 21:21:04   
Selutu
Constructive


The main thing about the GG is that it is extremely hard to find a way of competing so that it is balanced between all the houses.
If it wasn't a war, but instead a a series of gradually increasing difficulty challenges, then RH would come out top, with MR in the middle and WB last. The main point is that the houses are just too different.
quote:

1. Too many players they can field.

2. Since everyone is forced to use their House's GG mecha, WB is given a big push since the GG is a WAR. And while WB mecha are MADE for Wars(while being useless when it comes to employing strategies), RH and MR mecha are made for longer, defensive battles. That in itself seems like a really, really, really GREAT idea.

3. Over-advertising. The first thing the WB House Leader says is to tell new players they won the last GEARS Games. It becomes a deadly cycle as more players join WB because they were winning, and because of more players they win more.

Just to add:
2) WB's change of shoulders didn't really affect the mecha itself, since both sets of shoulders deals around the same amount of damage. However RH's one is replaced by a more damaging pair, although it helps with ending battles quicker, they don't fit in with the rest of the mecha and that even if you use the GGRH correctly, it is still possible to loose against a GGWB or GGMR. Then the GGMR, the change is again the shoulders, which are changed to pair of low-damaging and low-non-stackable DoT chance shoulder. There are 2 problems with this:
a) It deals less damage than the original AMR shoulders even including the DoT.
b) DoTs takes up time, causing the battles to be longer

And an extra point:
There is just less and less incentive for MR to fight due to the rewards, which are basically out-done by items already in game (sometimes even non-rares... Like the Disorientator is outdone by the Juugeki series) For example the Sickle series last year dealt slightly higher damage than the MR Multi Gunner series, which was released the previous year and costs credits. Aside from that both of hem can deal a 2x HP DoT, but the MR Multi Gunner also has a chance to deal an irresistible stun for 2 turns. The only point that the MR Multi Gunner lacks is the fact that it is only compatible with MR mechas. Another thing about the MR rewards is that it doesn't fit into the MR theme of Dodge and Crits. There is simply no point in nerfing the enemy's Boost if they're going to miss (Component Theif series).
But then again, that goes for MR rewards in general... Outside their HMs, every other House thing is useless for MR.
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 15
7/25/2012 22:20:34   
Gamemastersam
Member

You know what i dont understand? if you RHs and MRs are always saying that WB is the worst of the houses, than why is there such a problem in the GGs balance ? If were so weak just steamroll us and win this year. Im not tryin to rage or anything, im just pointing out that every day WB is laughed at and every year RH and MR gets their wings clipped by WB XD In fact, the more you guys talk about WB ill just bring up GG 07, 08, 09, 10, 11, and 12. Thatll be fair :)

< Message edited by Gamemastersam -- 7/25/2012 22:21:24 >
DF MQ  Post #: 16
7/25/2012 23:03:40   
Thiefboy109
Legendary AK!!!


@Gamemastersam
Look, WolfBlade has an enormous advantage in the GEARS Games. Their mech is MADE for fast kills, which is the entire point of war. It's pretty much impossible to argue that Wolfblade Mechs are anywhere near as good as the other house's mechs. Also, I was a WolfBlader for the first 2-3 years of playing MechQuest, so I definitely know how to use the mecha.

Not to mention that Wolfblade has many, many more members.

Think about it : What major challenges have been accomplished with Wolfblade mechs and cannot be accomplished by Runehawk and Mystraven? None.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 17
7/25/2012 23:10:48   
Selutu
Constructive


@Gamemastersam
WB - Fast kills
MR - Balanced
RH - Tanking

That pretty much describes the houses's killing speed.
I have 2 WB Characters as well, so I'm pretty sure I know how to use the mecha. I came up with quite a few unique WB builds before.

Also can WB mechas be used to beat Castle Darkspyre suing something unique to it? No.
Can WB mechas be used to beat Piotr using something unique to it? No.

Also mecha=/=house the fact that WB wins GGs doesn't mean that they have a superior mecha. As I have said before there is no possible method to make a completely fair GG, war is in favor of WB, challenge fights are in favor of RH, MR will always pull through second in each of these types of games.
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 18
7/25/2012 23:53:33   
EinhanderX01
Member

quote:

WolfBlade's actual mechs have nearly no use strategically outside of the GGs, but for fighting wars they are definitely the best.


I would like to respectfully disagree. Level 35 and 40 versions are great to build Stun-chains around due to the buffs they got (as well as other level 35 and 40 AHMs).

Anyway...

quote:

Okay...to give evryone the same target number of say 300 would be silly. Lets try a target number of House members x 5(or what have you). That way, proportionatley everyone is equal.
Its not a perfect idea given betrayals but its a start.

That was done the last GG. WB was actually behind for a bit, but they all rallied in defiance of the Staff giving handicaps to them and not (much) to RH and MR, and won that one by 50%, more or less. In fact, WB players were actually quite angry at the unfairness, and thus blasted past what was nearly 3x or 4x more opponents than RH to claim the title once more.

The year before, there was a sort of "rising meter" system that kept the kill % at a certain level, actually throwing out all excess wins by any house. It wasn't until the meter finally sped up past the 50% mark that WB kept powering forwards to keep up with the meter's increased rate while the other two Houses fell behind.

Basically, WB has, for the most part, rallied against the Staff's own interventions to prove that they were willing to team up and retain the title fair and square. The only way the Staff could have given a break to the other two Houses was if WB was required to fight the ShS in a separate war meter (in order to save Xaria) while RH and MR duked it out for the title that year. AKA; plot reasons. The other way is to just allow RH and MR to team up for one year. Or just straight up ban WB for a year and let the birds slug it out.

One way to change it up a bit is to go for one large meter; split into 3 sections; colored by House. WB and MR would start with 33% each, while RH would start with 34%. The goal isn't to attain 100% (which would be impossible anyway), but to fight and maintain a percentage higher than the other two houses. A 3-way tug-of-war if you will, and the victors are the ones that manage to hold a better percentage. Even if WB wins again, having say... 50% to MR's 35% and RH's 15% is less humiliating than saying WB had a 50% lead over the other two Houses by the end.

Another way is to require House Mechs as a default base, but allow players to equip any non-rare equipment they can get in-game onto the base chassis. Customizing a House mech. That way, at least players can vary up their builds for a bit more offense as needed. And also require that ALL game events require a House mech base. Even Betrayal and Mascot Theft.
Post #: 19
7/25/2012 23:55:39   
skadidlybop
Member

I'm not really concerned about who wins.
All I find important about the GG is to join runehawk so I can get that cloverblade (which is the best cloverblade IMO, and is excellent for energy drain builds, and once you get it, you can probably beat any enemy, provided you work up a strong enough tank/stall build) and that (sort of laggy attack animation) shoulder laser that does 125% damage with 75% of damage dealt used to drain enemy energy levels and restore hp.
The only thing of interest for this years GG is the possibility of a level cap raise, and the new house mechs.
MQ  Post #: 20
7/26/2012 0:05:41   
Flaafy222
Member
 

@shadidlybop I don't really care who wins in the GG, I just want to betray MR and join RH to complete my EP DoT build. Though it would be nice to see MR win this year. I'm sure they'll figure out something.

Everyone is saying WB sucks, maybe the GG is a little advantage given to WB so it can be on the same level as RH or MR.
Post #: 21
7/26/2012 0:53:01   
Selutu
Constructive


@EinhanderX01
While a 3-way-tug-of-war would be a nice idea. I would prefer stealthwing's suggestion:
quote:

There should be a time limit rather than a score limit. The games end after *Insert X amount of time here* and then whichever house had the most average wins per fighting member (Or something more complex to prevent people who fought once then stopped from bringing the house down too much) wins.

It seems like it would be easier to code.
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 22
7/26/2012 0:57:21   
Thiefboy109
Legendary AK!!!


@Einhander
Ah, sorry. I don't mean to sound rude, was kind of annoyed and my thoughts were clouded while I was typing that post. Still, not many weapons that I can think of are equipable and can nerf immo resist. Maybe the Pipe...

AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 23
7/26/2012 1:02:18   
Selutu
Constructive


@Theifboy
The ones I can think of are, Pipe series, Backgun series and the Anchor series.

@EinhanderX01
Just another point to add to Theifboy's the BD's stun-chance isn't guaranteed, thus making the stun-loop less effective.
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 24
7/26/2012 2:13:02   
blues
Legendary AdventureGuide!


We already thought about a "fair" system and YAY we found one! Problem is the implementation because nasty Gremlins dont like fair GGs.
Maybe WB fed them after midnight or poured water on them but were working on it.
Post #: 25
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