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RE: =DF= DragonLord Discussion Thread

 
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6/18/2015 14:52:17   
GreenGuy23
Member

I just noticed a bug. The CCDL loses 100 Mana when you use any of the skills when you have max Mana. It's kinda weird,d but just thought I'd let you know.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 151
6/19/2015 10:41:20   
VJ
Member

as much as I love the DLA there are other armors that can surpass it.
the Pally & Necro armors can heal while the pally is mainly used against the undead it can still pack a punch as it is a combo of offense & deference while the Necro has many ways to heal and has more or less two finishing moves ether on their own or with the skill that summons another undead warrior/mage/other and it is faster too.

don't get me wrong the DLA is strong defensively but still lack luster compared to other armors.
Post #: 152
6/19/2015 10:46:11   
Shadows Morgenstern
Member

@VJ: Dragonlord is lackluster against other armours? Whut? Are you talking offensively? Because defensively, it's a fortress. You are more or less invincible with it.

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DF  Post #: 153
6/19/2015 11:06:38   
VJ
Member

@Shadow
I am talking from experience, as much as I love my DLA I have been able to take just as much of a pounding in the Necro armor and recover much faster with it. the Necro is a tank if use right.

I never lost a fight with it, and I never fell bellow 40% HP with the armor either.

the problems I ever had with against zedd(or is it Zadd?) and his over powered attacks that double cool down times with each hit and sent some of my best skills for my necro up to 60 turn cool down and odds are would have gone higher if it wasn't for Ash, Tomix, and my pet dragon.

DLA is a tank but it lacks any true combat abilities and is almost completely defense where there are other armors that can do the same job if not better.

Post #: 154
6/23/2015 7:00:52   
Sflamin
Member

@VJ I also feel the same thing about Necro defense being superior to DL at certain situations. As a tier 3 DL is supposed to better than Necro but it couldn't beat monsters that Necro could beat like hard mode When, Valtrith...
Overall, DL defense has gotten better, but not totally invincible when going up against monsters that have high bonus, healing abilities... I didn't quite like how its offense got a huge nerfed considering it was never that high to begin (Entrophy has both amazing defense & offense and some can argue that Necro, Pyromancer have slightly better defense as well).
DF  Post #: 155
6/23/2015 8:56:22   
Ash
Member


quote:

DLA is a tank but it lacks any true combat abilities and is almost completely defense

Wasn't that the point? It now does what a fully defensive class is meant to do.

quote:

As a tier 3 DL is supposed to better than Necro but it couldn't beat monsters that Necro could beat like hard mode When, Valtrith...

Did I say tier 3's would always be 100% better against everything? No. I've said that they get more of whatever lean they are and will be overall stronger. Some tier 2's like Pally will be more useful than some like DeathKnight in some situations but overall you will be able to use a Tier 3 in any situation you use a tier 2 and be better at it. DL fulfills that.

quote:

Overall, DL defense has gotten better, but not totally invincible when going up against monsters that have high bonus, healing abilities...

What? Ok first, no class will ever be "totally" invincible. Second, DL is as close as you can get in most cases. Third, all classes are going to suffer against high bonus enemies, that's the nature OF high bonus enemies. To think differently is to ignore the nature of the enemy and what they're supposed to be doing in the first place.

quote:

I also feel the same thing about Necro defense being superior to DL at certain situations.

Lets compare Necro and DL then shall we?

Necro
14% HP heal. - Loss
10% Mana heal. - Loss
140 Melee/Magic for 2 turn. - Loss
280% resist. - Win
100% mitigation. - Loss
-40 Hit/-35 Damage nerf. - Loss

DL
140 M/P/M for 3 turns. - Win
260% mitigation. - Win
35% HP heal. - Win
30% HP heal. - Win
-55 Hit. - Win
-55 Damage / -50 Immobility nerf - Win along with benefit to stun.

DL has overall the better defenses, the better healing (yes, even compared with the 140% resist as that requires setup and only really shines against Darkness or Light monsters due to how much of an ele res you have against those. Surprisingly there are more than just darkness and light enemies out there.), and when used properly will not die. If you're dying on it you're not using the skills properly or you ended up going for longer than the boss is meant to take and if you reached that point you've hit the wall every class will. I tanked through things on DL that I couldn't on Necro. Necro has higher damage because it loses in defense. Also, and I know this will be shocking, you can change classes and you're meant to in certain situations. All classes will beat everything meant to be beaten with enough planning put into it, some classes will have an easier time doing it.

quote:

I didn't quite like how its offense got a huge nerfed considering it was never that high to begin (Entrophy has both amazing defense & offense and some can argue that Necro, Pyromancer have slightly better defense as well).

DL was not going to keep its 400% damage spam as that was higher than almost every other class IN THE GAME for the amount of times you could spam it. It was never going to keep that level of damage spam. That was the only thing people did, pop one of the DoT (oh look, more damage), and then just spammed it at every point while hitting the HP heal button. That's not tanking anything or mitigating any damage, that's simply heal looping. Paladin already does that. You still have a large damage potential but it's risk/reward now, not all reward. If you sit at 20%, and yes you can even against hard hitting bosses if you use your skills, you can still maintain a very large DPT. Necro doesn't have the overall combined defenses that DL does now. Use the class and figure out the skill rotations and you'll have less issues. I already said I'm working on a trinket to help against those bosses that do heal so that will also help the class out in the very few fights that it's having trouble in. (Surprisingly though a couple of those are challenge fights....)

Pyromancer's heals are not anywhere near as high as most other classes. basing it off of weapon damage means you lose out when you stack any remotely decent amount of End. It's other skills? Yes it has pretty good defenses. Entropy as well has a nice mix. What do both of those classes have in common though? They're DC. They have a DC bonus. That makes them a bit stronger to begin with in various ways. DL is close to them and will be able to tank the same bosses they can, but each class IS different and has different ways of responding to the boss.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 156
6/23/2015 14:58:46   
GreenGuy23
Member

My favorite thing about DLA now is that I can take out most lesser monsters in a quest in 2 or so turns, then go against the boss and just wreck it. Who needs to deal high damage if you can just wait it out a little bit and destroy everything. This trinket you're thinking of, Ash, is probably going to make the class Tier 900000000 if we can get trough heals, because that is my main issue. If you put your stats mainly into STR/DEX/INT and mana then you never have to worry about a thing at higher levels and you can just mow down everything. I'm considering a retrain to make my stats 150 STR, 30 WIS, then dump everything left for the rest of the game into LUK to see how that turns out. I have a stong feeling that high LUK will make the class unbeatable, when combined with accessories with extra defense.

EDIT: This makes me wonder how far I can get in a battle against Seppy now...

< Message edited by GreenGuy23 -- 6/23/2015 14:59:46 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 157
6/23/2015 15:13:30   
crabpeople
Member

Above: Old DL could do that aswell. The big improvement is pretty much his mult attack.

Leaving the tier joke apart. I don't think it's going to be a +100 health trinket (and if it is. It's upkeep is going to be limited). Maybe it's a +70 that could be combined with Symone to make it an almost permanent +100.

And yeah as I already said before. Right now DL might be the best questing class thanks to his short term damage and his brutal sustain.

Stat wise... Yeah STR/DEX/INT LUK and END are the main part. A high END build would allow you to play at the 20% hp range with security (that's 400-500 hp with full END and lv80).
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 158
6/23/2015 15:16:30   
VJ
Member

@Ash
with the Necro's two ways of healing, its standard HOT and the skill that turns Damage in to HP or another HOT if you will it can be argued has a better healing factor over all.

I also never argued that the DLA wasn't meant to be a power house and it was meant to be a defensive armor.



< Message edited by VJ -- 6/23/2015 15:17:38 >
Post #: 159
6/23/2015 15:26:29   
crabpeople
Member

It's just relative... Necro heal is weaker (14% vs a 35%) but it acts as a damage source that scales with your max hp (END). Shroud is succesful because most enemies attack with 1 element. But still it's situationally better because it scales with your all/elemental resistance and the target/s weapon damage. In some cases it heals a lot (50%hp or more) but in others it's just a shield with a small hp heal on it.

Edit: It's going to be an ebilsome moment the day I finish my necro guide.

Edit 2: "(14% vs a 35%)" Does anyone read what I wrote?

< Message edited by crabpeople -- 6/23/2015 16:15:58 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 160
6/23/2015 16:03:39   
Shadows Morgenstern
Member

I don't understsnd how you can argue the points of these classes against each other, towards the man who coded both of them. It just seems illogical to me, I'm pretty sure he is aware of their skills far more than most of us.

People still haven't found out how some of the skills interact on several of the revamps. Apparently people think I just don't look at what I'm coding and just do things. ~Ash

< Message edited by Ash -- 6/23/2015 16:06:39 >
DF  Post #: 161
6/23/2015 16:07:38   
Chaoshaper
Member

...How did you get 42%? Isnt it 14% over 3 turns, which is (14/3=~4.66...%) a turn?

And DL has 15% base regen plus 10% a turn for 2 turns which is a grand total of 35% of your total health? Or have i just not used Necro in so long i forgot about its heal? :l
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 162
6/23/2015 16:09:14   
Ash
Member


It is indeed 14/3. DragonLord's heal is MUCH better overall as it heals more than double of Necro's.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 163
6/23/2015 16:13:18   
VJ
Member

@Shadow
I am well aware of who does the coding for these armors and I am always thankful and I respect the man and his work as I am of all the other AE staff as I know they put everything they have into the game to and is willing to talk with us, clear things up when needed, and one of the things I like most about Ash is he speaks his mind and that is one of the things I respect the most about him.

as to comparing the two armors I think it is fair to do so, not to bash the armor as I enjoy the armor a great deal as it is my top four I use regularly.

Edit:
I stand corrected when it comes to the healing.
and will remove that from the post.






< Message edited by VJ -- 6/23/2015 16:14:47 >
Post #: 164
6/23/2015 16:50:53   
Dragonlord Abdul
Member

I've always thought that DragonLord shoudl be the exact opposite of the DoomKnight armour. One completely offesive (DoomKnight) and the other completely defensive (DragonLord). It's what I love about DragonLord; When you fight something, you FEEL invincible (You actually aren't) and it's pretty self sutaining. Doomknight still outclasses it but its pretty good, all things considered. I do however think it can be improved by giving it some sort of buff if your pet dragon is equipped or something like.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 165
6/24/2015 1:09:41   
Rayen
Constructively Discussional!


@above. I'd felt the same way about the dragon/DL interaction and brought it up on page 5. Ash gave his reasoning against it as follows:
quote:

Giving it that type of passive meant that I would have had to both re-balance the skills on DL AND on the pet different from what they currently are. That type of interaction would also mean it would be mandatory to use your dragon with the armor by anyone attempted to max out their character and that's not the intent. I'd rather you use the armor and pet/guest at the same time because you WANT to rather than because it gives you a [x]% advantage. The DL passive is wrapped up in Bite/Rush and Soul lowering the cooldowns and costs instead of an outward benefit. I also upped the M/P/M of the armor to 10 by default so you get a small amount of defense as well.

The other part of the issue is that crossing stuff over like that is a headache to code and could cause issues. While we can still go back and add stuff to it for the DL artifact so that it does interact with the dragon while you have it, it can cause buggy issues in terms of the armor skills going off in an odd way or the effects not even procing when you have the guest equipped. I'd rather wait and have more time to puzzle through the best way to do it to link that to the Artifact boost rather than trying to rush it for this past week.
So basically the reasons are:
1. It could cause buggy things (and coders seem to be entomophobic)
2. A Dragonlord shouldn't be expected to always be by their dragon's side and should be able to operate independently. The benefit you gain from being a DL dragon-wise is that you have a dragon in the first place. So roleplay-wise, just having your dragon/being a DL is a buff in and of itself.
AQ DF  Post #: 166
6/24/2015 3:00:21   
Lightwind
Member

^
This. Come on guys, we have a dragon. That's a buff right there. Now if only the Kid Dragon didn't buff enemies the way the toddler used to, then it would be the DL's offence outlet.
DF  Post #: 167
6/25/2015 0:49:52   
D00MS
Member

i like it more then the last dl armor still not the original though idk about this second defensive skill


the dl artifact should defiantly boost the dam output and the dragon spirits cds would be nice if it had added a optional that would allow you to turn your dragon into the pvp pet but that just seems like a headache and really not necessary as it was pointed out that we shouldn't have to always have our dragons with us

quote:

People still haven't found out how some of the skills interact on several of the revamps. Apparently people think I just don't look at what I'm coding and just do things. ~Ash
that's because most people are recently die hard dragon lords never mind the people who know what there talking about from YEARS of experience or made the dragon lord one way or another including the coding. I admit i talk a lot about these new tirs mostly bad but over all I still know were to draw the line and i only talk about what i know of them yes i'm not big on the t2 dl but i relearned the class and used everything that needed to be used at the time it was needed to use it and i'm not to big on 2 defensive skills but i'm sure i to will use em and i WOULD NEVER tell you guys (ae team) that i know more about the class then you guys do because 8 years experience is nothing on making/coding/animating/everything else on said class there's no amount of experience that can even touch that skill lvl so i'm pretty sure ash is right on this one and ima take his word for it

< Message edited by D00MS -- 6/25/2015 1:28:46 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 168
6/25/2015 2:25:39   
Greldracion
Member

So with an incomplete CHA/WIS build and my dragon, I was able to beat Tomix with over 20% health left and no self heals. Needless to say, but this class is AMAZING! Ash did great on the class and I think I may have found a great loop for anyone who uses luck, which is great because it would fit with the already existing guide. So if Hopeful Guy or another member wants help remaking the guide I would like to collaborate with them.

< Message edited by Greldracion -- 6/25/2015 2:45:34 >
AQ  Post #: 169
7/4/2015 12:30:09   
Siedgrief
Member

hi!, i know this may be a little tooo late, (i was in vac), but i have tested the class since i arrived to my home and im loving the revamp so far the only thing that i suggest (sorry ash for this really late suggest :C) is add a passibe, that bocks the enemy heals, simple as that.

Dragon's Might - If the enemy Hp is higher than your max hp the passibe activates, giving the enemy 100% heal resistance and giving +20 Bth to you or someting like that?

Ash sorry for the late post :C i wasnt at home for like 1 month, please consider it at last.
Thanks.

< Message edited by Siedgrief -- 7/4/2015 12:43:12 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 170
7/4/2015 19:30:23   
Brasca123
Member

@siedgrief. that passive is kinda... really strong IMO, surely, DL has some problems with healing bosses, but ash said he is working in an artifact a trinket for DL to solve that

< Message edited by Brasca123 -- 7/4/2015 20:30:15 >
AQ DF  Post #: 171
7/4/2015 20:08:39   
Ash
Member


It's +140 Melee/Pierce/Magic for 3 turns...what skill are you looking at?

quote:

hi!, i know this may be a little tooo late, (i was in vac), but i have tested the class since i arrived to my home and im loving the revamp so far the only thing that i suggest (sorry ash for this really late suggest :C) is add a passibe, that bocks the enemy heals, simple as that.

Dragon's Might - If the enemy Hp is higher than your max hp the passibe activates, giving the enemy 100% heal resistance and giving +20 Bth to you or someting like that?

I'm working on a trinket to do something to that effect, but the effect you're suggest is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too powerful. That would mean every boss in the game wouldn't ever be able to heal if you're in DL and means that you have higher BtH than expected. The trinket I'm working on will help but that's not possible for a passive. Sorry. =/
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 172
7/4/2015 20:12:43   
Mordred
Member

A trinket? Is it exclusive to the DL class, meaning it's basically an artifact?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 173
7/4/2015 20:15:20   
Ash
Member


It won't be exclusive to DL's, just a general trinket that can be used to remove that bit of an issue DL has. It'll be useful for several classes so it wouldn't exactly be good to limit it. I have something else in mind for a DL artifact.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 174
7/4/2015 20:20:13   
Shadows Morgenstern
Member

What sort of something else do you have in mind? =P Ya can't just teas us like this! It's cruel! *hopes for one of Ash's patented MS paint equipments he talks about* xD
DF  Post #: 175
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