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RE: =DF= Guardian Discussion Thread

 
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5/5/2015 12:42:42   
Sakurai the Cursed
Member

quote:

DF uses Boost in its calculations. 1 point of Boost is 1% more damage. In this case base attack is +20% and Ray is +45%, leaving a 25% damage gap between them. You can divide it like that if you want, but that's why your math isn't adding up. Boost is far easier to calculate in terms of getting damage ranges for skills. The only types of effects that would work on are DoT's in which they use Min / (number) and Max / (number) to get their ranges.

What he was saying was a -20 weakness on an enemy would give the normal 120% Attack the same damage as the Light skill (although actually it'd be -21, as 1.2*1.2=1.44, not 1.45) and anything more makes the normal attack strictly better. I don't personally have a problem with the skill (though, thinking about it now it hasn't seen much use by me either), just thought that needed clarifying.

< Message edited by Sakurai the Cursed -- 5/5/2015 12:43:16 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 351
5/5/2015 12:52:46   
Ash
Member


Ah, gotcha. The wording of it was throwing me off for some reason.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 352
5/5/2015 13:17:37   
Zyxovan
Member

Man this class is amazing. Level 53, fought the minotaur with only the undead chickencow pet and the testing blade, no other equipment. Managed to kill it with around 300 health remaining out of 1700, but then again the minotaur does do a 140 damage per swing as opposed to my 10 to 40 damage max. And he used that rock explosion skill. The survivability of this class is really good, and the damage on it isn't bad either. Animations look wonderful as well. Golden guardian armor looks really good with Mootopolis hair, too. Super shiny.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 353
5/5/2015 14:45:11   
crabpeople
Member

Mmm I bought AQ guardianship yesterday and I've been testing some stuff with both armors and... Let's say I was liking the revamp till I found that old guardian has more single target damage than new guardian .
Yeh yeh my old extreme cursed skeleton budy told me:

New guardian: 1st try: 20 turns 2nd try: 20 turns.
Old guardian: 1st try: 17 turns 2nd try: 15 turns.

It happens because old guardian has a skill that gives +25 crit for 10 turns and old guardian rage has 2 turns cd and hurts more than the new rage.

While I like most of the skill breakdown I think the armor needs some minor changes considering it must be on the top of tier 2(don't worry Ash I won't be asking for damage ).

Guardian Heroes: I don't like the combination of a normal/strong blind (50 or more) combined with a powerboost nerf. It makes the minor effect feel useless at times. I would suggest to either reduce the blind and empower the powerboost nerf like pirate or remove the powerboost nerf (move it to another skill). Also I think that a +1 turn for duration and cooldown would be great to make the rotation: Guardian->Vortex->Rage->Keen->Dragon->Awethur

In case you disagree I would move the suggestion to a +1 duration and +1 cd for vortex.

Ray of light: I would suggest 1 of 3 options:
1-Make it a secondary mult hit.
2-Give it the -powerboost nerf from guardian heroes (my favourite option).
3-Increase damage,mana cost and reduce cd to 1 (make it a spammale skill like ninja and pirate).

Spiral Carve: Let's say that pirate stun... 5% more dmg, 10 less mana and 3 cd less... I just leave it there. I don't say that it must be an exact copy but it needs a small improvement.

Awethur's Fury: I think it needs more damage (sorry I said I wouldn't be asking for damage but I find it rather weak for the huge CD it has). A +50min/max would be okay even if the mana cost increases.

Health drain/Mana drain: I think that the Health drain cd should be 1 turn lower and the mana drain cd 2 or 3 turns higher. 7 turns for the mana drain feels like wasted potential that can go to somewhere else (necro mana regen has 9 turns. PKL has 12).

Overall the class is good. Definately a hybrid. The mana costs are low in general (except for the stun. I find it expensive). You won't run out of mana with the mana drain skill.

The class has a shield and I feel it needs an extra for having it like a +1 at base defenses like dragonlord or maybe an awethur 1% passive like: "everytime your turn finishes you have a 1% chance to proc "can't touch this". When that happens all the incoming damage you receive for that turn will be 0".

AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 354
5/5/2015 15:06:41   
DD.CLYDESTER
Member

Lol Hurray for Guardian, I'm looking forward to the revamp :) Old classic favourite
DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 355
5/5/2015 15:11:52   
Ash
Member


quote:

I think the armor needs some minor changes considering it must be on the top of tier 2

Did I say it "must be" or are you filling in words when I didn't say them. I'll go ahead and find the exact quote for you.

quote:

This is a tier 2 class BUT I gave it a "special offer" bonus to offset some of the things I did on it.

The bonus is in making sure you don't take as much of a penalty in certain parts to make sure you have what it does.

quote:

Yeh yeh my old extreme cursed skeleton budy told me:

>.>

quote:

It happens because old guardian has a skill that gives +25 crit for 10 turns and old guardian rage has 2 turns cd and hurts more than the new rage.

So, and let me get this right, +25 Crit outweighs EVERY effect the class now has? Serious, look at them side by side. The new one blows the old one out of the water in terms of effects. Yes, you no longer have +25 Crit but the current array of effects more than makes up for that. Unless all you want is pure in your face damage, in which case you have plenty of other classes to work with. This is meant to be a full hybrid, not a full offense. Please also take that into account in your assessment. To only lose 3 turns, and honestly using that fight isn't a normal one, means that it's doing it's job. Did you happen to check and see how much health you were left with or were you only trying for damage and ignoring that? You need to start taking more into account than just damage if it's NOT an offensive class.

Old Rage skill deals Round Up (Min/12) - (Max/12). The new one deals 20% per hit. So if we were to use the handy dandy medium range weapon of 60-60 that's 70 total for the old skill ((60/12)*14) and ((60*.2)*14) or 168 for the new. Please tell me how that's "more than the new rage"?

quote:

Guardian Heroes: I don't like the combination of a normal/strong blind (50 or more) combined with a powerboost nerf. It makes the minor effect feel useless at times. I would suggest to either reduce the blind and empower the powerboost nerf like pirate or remove the powerboost nerf (move it to another skill). Also I think that a +1 turn for duration and cooldown would be great to make the rotation:

Is this based on math or a gut feeling? +1 duration, as I know I've mentioned in the past, doesn't automatically mean +1 cooldown. Or vice versa, or tossing on mana costs, or any of those other things. What purpose would spreading the nerf out give? I'm not going to increase the power of it and it would just get shuffled to something else.

quote:

In case you disagree I would move the suggestion to a +1 duration and +1 cd for vortex.

Again, see above point. In some cases I can, in others I can't. In the future ask about "More duration and CD?" but please don't just toss out numbers.

quote:

Ray of light: I would suggest 1 of 3 options:
1-Make it a secondary mult hit.
2-Give it the -powerboost nerf from guardian heroes (my favourite option).
3-Increase damage,mana cost and reduce cd to 1 (make it a spammale skill like ninja and pirate).

No.
Maybe.
That DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT.

quote:

Spiral Carve: Let's say that pirate stun... 5% more dmg, 10 less mana and 3 cd less... I just leave it there. I don't say that it must be an exact copy but it needs a small improvement.

I'll look at it and restat. But AGAIN, and I KNOW I've told you this before. Different class, different stating. It was ON Pirate that I told you that.

quote:

Awethur's Fury: I think it needs more damage (sorry I said I wouldn't be asking for damage but I find it rather weak for the huge CD it has). A +50min/max would be okay even if the mana cost increases.

No.

quote:

Health drain/Mana drain: I think that the Health drain cd should be 1 turn lower and the mana drain cd 2 or 3 turns higher. 7 turns for the mana drain feels like wasted potential that can go to somewhere else (necro mana regen has 9 turns. PKL has 12).

I'm going to have to keep repeating myself about different classes different setup aren't I? The mana CD is there so you CAN spam skills more. That's intentional. That's also the reason some things have differences than other classes in terms of effects of strength.

quote:

The class has a shield and I feel it needs an extra for having it like a +1 at base defenses like dragonlord or maybe an awethur 1% passive like: "everytime your turn finishes you have a 1% chance to proc "can't touch this". When that happens all the incoming damage you receive for that turn will be 0".

No. It's not getting a passive.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 356
5/5/2015 15:53:38   
Sakurai the Cursed
Member

quote:

Old Rage skill deals Round Up (Min/12) - (Max/12). The new one deals 20% per hit. So if we were to use the handy dandy medium range weapon of 60-60 that's 70 total for the old skill ((60/12)*14) and ((60*.2)*14) or 168 for the new. Please tell me how that's "more than the new rage"?

Old Rage does 100% stat damage per hit.

It's not supposed to be taking it per hit, that's a bug. ~Ash

^I know, just answering your question. :p

< Message edited by Sakurai the Cursed -- 7/2/2015 10:22:25 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 357
5/5/2015 16:22:12   
Shadows Morgenstern
Member

And once again loads of people complain and think they know more about how the class is meant to be than Ash once they see the skills post! I'm so shocked!

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DF  Post #: 358
5/5/2015 17:03:17   
Snakezarr
Member

I think the light blast is fine as is it only does slightly less damage and its very cheap, works great for people who dont invest in WIS.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 359
5/5/2015 17:43:17   
Caststarter
Member

To be fairly honest, while this is not my kind of style of class, it is honestly WAY better in just about every single aspect compared to old Guardian(I looked at the skills and played around with it before.). While the Guardian Heroes powerboost seems awfully redundant to others, it is nice to have when you are either fighting a high BtH enemy or at a lower level where the -BtH will not guaranteed the enemy being unable to hit you. It is a nice way to buffer damage that goes through.

Also, I do not consider the Rage skill as a "true" nuke skill, which I do not care for anyways, as it always has the possibility to not give the optimal damage for you unless you are fighting a completely neutral enemy.

However, I thought the stun skill had a randomness factor to it? I thought I read somewhere here (and witnessed it last only two turns) that mentioned that. So if there is a possibility to have a two or four turn stun, I think it compensates just fine for that. Though was it changed?

Fury is also suppose to be more of a skill that you are suppose to not rely on, yes? Where you want some high damage or get the instant kill? So I do believe it does not need anything changed because of it.

The only things I do not like is something that is related to animations where it is kind of... weird. I do not high-tier quality on everything but seems earlier classes before it not worked on Tomix seemed a bit smoother and fluid. May just be me though. Though another thing is that I do not get any sense of "uniqueness" out of raw mechanics. Fighting style wise, it is radically different seeing how the shield is a main focus of both defense and attack. But in terms of mechanics, I do not know, it is a good yet basic hybrid of defense and offense with a couple element locked skills and a couple random skills. They work fine, I assure you, but it kind of seems basic to me. Of course, that may be just because of my play-style revolving around more intricate means of going about things for the heck of it.

Overall, it is fine.
DF  Post #: 360
5/5/2015 18:01:45   
DarkLore
Member

Hey Ash... Can we get a house item that lets us re-fight the guardian Dragon? Or let there be an option by Trainer Eckhard that allows us to re-fight him? I hate that what was the hardest battle back then (Almost immpossible with the old skills unless you got very lucky.) could only ever be done once! Any chance you could at least make the second option I mentioned possible?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 361
5/5/2015 18:49:53   
Azan
Member

I took a look at the numbers and I really can't think of anything I'd like to change.

Again, congratulations for a very well revamped class.
Post #: 362
5/5/2015 20:57:27   
Zork Knight
Member

Slightly off-topic, but are there any classes left before Ash starts looking into the DC classes?

< Message edited by Zork Knight -- 5/5/2015 20:58:53 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 363
5/5/2015 21:01:28   
Shadows Morgenstern
Member

@Zork: The only one I can think of is DragonLord which is only getting a few tweaks IIRC...and Ranger is still in Verly's box. However I on ly remember Ash saying it was GPS he was going to change? (WHICH SHOULD USE BOTH GPS ARMOURS AND GET RID OF THE RARE FIRST ONE.)
DF  Post #: 364
5/5/2015 21:01:59   
Mystical Warrior
Helpful!


@Zork Knight Aside from implementing the new art for Paladin, I think Guardian is the last in the list when it comes to Non-DC classes that needs revamping
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 365
5/5/2015 21:11:48   
Chaosweaver Amon
Friendly!


@Zork Knight: All I can think of is Ranger, and I know Dragonlord is getting some minor tweaks to make it noticeably stronger than Necro.
DF  Post #: 366
5/5/2015 22:42:04   
Lordk0z
Member
 

I didn't mean GIVE IT ALL AQ INTO A CLASS. Sorry if I came off like that.

I just thought that since it really did act like the Guardian/Awe sets, (PWD, The Drains, the Original Awe Blast, Heroes can be seen as the Awe Set's bonus, Guardian rage is the AQ Guardian Blade, the Guardian Dragon), it'd be cool for it to have some passive effect reminiscent of those sets.

EDIT: This is just aesthetics, but would it be possible for the "Multi" to consist of one shockwave that hits everyone instead of a shockwave for each enemy? It'd speed up the attack too.

< Message edited by Lordk0z -- 5/5/2015 22:47:18 >
Post #: 367
5/5/2015 23:00:05   
Mystical Warrior
Helpful!


@Lordkoz I don't think the one you suggest for multi isn't possible, IIRC all multi-monster hit skills are like that, the skills always hits the monsters one by one instead of one go at the same time. Although IMO, I like its current 1by1 hit, it kinda gives off that power slash feel, it also reminds of Cloud Strife's Blade Beam animation in Advent Children.

As for the passive thing, its a good thought, although it may be reserved for an artifact for the class once the staff do find time to elaborate more on the concept of it.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 368
5/5/2015 23:04:29   
Lordk0z
Member
 

@Mystical. IIRC The Paladin class's multi, as well as Ash and Artix's multis consist of one attack animation. I suppose there's something for the 1by1, it just doesn't compare to the Excaliblast style shockwave, ah well, every man to his own. and once again, yeah, an artifact would make sense.
Post #: 369
5/5/2015 23:11:20   
Mystical Warrior
Helpful!


For the case of Ash and Artix's animation, its possible for them given how their animation works or outright there's no additional animation for the the other hits. To be honest, I would like an animation especially on Ash's multi-monster skill since it just outright damages the monster with no indication of an attack.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 370
5/5/2015 23:22:19   
Evangel
Member

quote:

@Evangel lol, I find that too funny, given how Guardian class uses its shield on its attack, if it were easy, I would like EDL/DL to have the shield animation in "Awethur's Fury" to be used on their Shield Bash skill, because as it stands, Guardian class really bashes the enemy with its shield unlike EDL/DL which is like they are just grazing the enemy with it when they use Shield bash. On the weight thing, the way Guardian uses his shield on the final animation of Guardian Rage certainly has weight to it, same for how they use Defend when they plant the shield on the ground

The new Guardian only uses his shield as an offensive weapon for two skills. One more than DragonLord's (Shield Bash to stun; which makes sense). Unlike DragonLord's, however, Guardian's shield-hit animation doesn't have any "wind-up", or "weight" behind it. DragonLord's is an actual bash, you can see the wind-up, and you can see the weight behind it in the animation. Guardian's is more of a "push".

DragonLord also plants it's shield in the ground for its defense ability. While the darkness dragon actually dissipates, Guardian's animation ends too quickly. Last frame of the animation, it just disappears.


quote:

@Evangel - You're not the only one; Cronix is great at static art and even effects and such, but his animation of character movements definitely needs some more work. Still, you can see the improvement between ACCL and Guardian (meaning Guardian is way better in that regard), so I'm sure he'll be churning out Tomix-level animations soon enough.

And I agree. The actual art for the class is great. And I have not doubt that the quality of his animations will no doubt improve, but...
quote:

@Evangel
Give Cronix some time. When Tomix was starting out, his animations were quite stiff as well. You should have seen Tomix's first flash animation with a DF-styled character. I can't really track it down now but basically you wouldn't know it was made by him someone tells you.

DragonFable has gotten to a certain point where a level of quality in art and animation is expected. The quality of the new Guardian's animations (solely speaking for myself here) do not meet those expectations. And until his skills do meet that level, Cronix's animations shouldn't be used in-game.

Now, I don't expect anything to change based on my opinions. But criticism should be accepted, regardless of whether it is positive or negative, or somewhere in between.


_____________________________

AQ DF AQW  Post #: 371
5/5/2015 23:25:50   
Mystical Warrior
Helpful!


@Evangel Well given the fact that the animations were done a few years ago before this testing phase, so the animation may not live up to current ones.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 372
5/6/2015 4:22:10   
DarkDevil
Member

a very small graphical bug with the helmet position makes masks look like this (either that or his head is too big for the mask or the mask only covers the side facing us)
other classes don't show this so i think it's in the guardian, it only shows during close cutscenes.
the mask name is tragedy mask.



on a side note the class could really benefit if the vortex evation effect was extended by a turn even if the offensive side of the skill is removed.
the defensive combo always has a turn where it falls short, and you just sit there defenceless so this will really help it.
it would also make the skill more useful.
as its current effect is "pay 22 Mp to reduce all skills cooldown by 1".

< Message edited by DarkDevil -- 5/6/2015 4:55:48 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 373
5/6/2015 4:31:47   
Mystical Warrior
Helpful!


@DarkDevil The skill is fine IMO, if you really want to loop a defensive play, always start with "Guardian Heroes" and then use Guardian Shield before the debuff wears off, then lastly use Vortex when shield runs out, by that time Guardian Heroes should already be done with its CD. Then rinse and repeat, do note that I didn't include Spiral Carve since most bosses has immunity to stun, but if they have like 50% immunity you almost always stun them since you get 3 chances with the 3 hits of Spiral Carve to stun them

< Message edited by Mystical Warrior -- 5/6/2015 4:34:32 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 374
5/6/2015 4:40:48   
DD.CLYDESTER
Member

quote:

@DarkDevil The skill is fine IMO, if you really want to loop a defensive play, always start with "Guardian Heroes" and then use Guardian Shield before the debuff wears off, then lastly use Vortex when shield runs out, by that time Guardian Heroes should already be done with its CD. Then rinse and repeat


Tried this while testing the new old class lol, killed impossible crawler with 400 out of 2045 hp lol and died a few times cause heroes healed the monster haha

Anyways, the class, overall is great and can now kill the bosses I couldn't kill before soo yeah good job. The only thing that got me thinking is the last skill on the left set "Awethur's Power". It's kinda just a headbutt and a shield-bash going on at the same time plus it doesn't hit that hard. Being "Awethur's Power" shouldn't it hit a far more better damage? or even after effects like stun or blind or somethin.

"No complaints, Just feedback"

< Message edited by DD.CLYDESTER -- 5/6/2015 4:42:38 >
DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 375
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