RE: Gamma Bot Must Get A Fix


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5/27/2015 7:19:28

Lord Machaar
Member

@mother1

Here is the thing, gamma bot's special is all about damage, sure I compared gamma fire to golden yetis normal attack and the damage difference turned out to be 20, compare it with any other bot"s normal attack and the damage difference would be also 30, how can a +30 damage can be considered as a special effect? We can't compare a special attack of X bot to gamma fire if that special attack isn't meant to deal damage, their special attack serves another purpose, and this is actually better, better than having 2 attacks serving the same purpose which is damage, let me explain.

The difference between X bot and gamma bot is, for example, when a rank 1 (uses gamma bot) faces a rank 30 (uses X bot*), when rank 30 player uses 10 legendary points on his bot damage = +40 damage, voila, normal attack of rank 30's bot now deals more damage than gamma fire, the special attack of gamma bot. And gamma fire goes unnoticed in the battle, and the problem doesn't stop here, because your opponent still has his bots' special attack, entering with gamma bot to the battle is like entering with a bot without its special attack and this is a fact we can't deny.**
*X bot: can be frankly any bot, since all bots have normal attacks that deal damage.

The problem gamma fire isn't unique, it is achieveable, unlike other bots special attacks, example**: IA overload, which remains unique at any level (where 5 focus is possible), and it will be noticed in the battle, even game deciding move. Evén if the rank 30 player puts all his legendary points on robot damage or whatever, he would never reach infernal overload's damage , not even in his dreams.
IA is just an example, take any other bot, simply you can't just have the special attack of that bot without having the bot itself, it's not the case with gamma fire.

I think you should put the "rarity" thing a part, look at this objectively not subjectively, consider the bot as any other bot, since this is Omega, and Omega is all about balance, sure varium items shouldn't be superior than non-var ones, but they shouldn't be inferior to them. I hope my reasoning is pretty clear.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 5/27/2015 7:38:00 >

Epic

Post #: 26

5/27/2015 8:30:20

King Bling
Member

Refrain from using calculation because it all depends on luck factor, XXX-YYY bot damage clasing with AAA-BBB Defns/Resis can differ in anything.
There are many more bots that depend on Focus, like the Botanical Borg etc. So nope it doesnt need a certain buff just because it is not as good as other bots, if we keep nerfing/buffing bots just to make them on par or equal to other bots then no variety will last. So I dont agree with this post.

Post #: 27

5/27/2015 8:32:19

..Jasmine..
Member

Hey, i'm not a gamma bot user but seriously this bot needs some buffs. I even sometimes see the paint spraying bunnies(ballistic bunny bots) in battle but not any gamma bots. Gamma bot's special attack is totally useless, most of the other bots special attack has some effect on the coming next few rounds but what gamma bot's special does??? 105% damage??

As we can see the bots damage is not fixed one, sometimes it is low and sometimes is at close to max damage i.e., say your bot has 550-580 damage, against an opponent with 300-310 def/res, your bot will do 240-280 damage to him, now consider gamma bot which has both normal and special which pretty much the same, the 105% damage here will hardly be noticed because of the damage fluctuations because of the variations in base bot damage to def/res.

Even though others bots special does less damage than its normal attack it has major impact on the coming turns, but gamma bot on other hand is nothing but a bot with 2 different strike attacks. Now this is why gamma bot needs some rework in its abilities.

Epic	Post #: 28

5/27/2015 9:40:06

Lord Machaar
Member

@king bling:

quote:

if we keep nerfing/buffing bots just to make them on par or equal to other bots then no variety will last.

So you are telling me, buffs and nerfs decrease battle variety?
So according to you if X bot is way better than Y bot, Y bot shouldn't get a buff because it will decrease variety? If X bot remains OP, who will use Y bot, the weaker one, or according to you, variety means when everyone uses the same bot.

As for calculations, my calculations are correct, the damage interval implies for all bots not just gamma bot. A/A= 1 therefore luck factor isn't a factor in the equation I gave since it is present in both sides of the equation.

Cleaned ~Battle Elf

< Message edited by Battle Elf -- 5/27/2015 17:11:14 >

Epic

Post #: 29

5/27/2015 10:30:28

Variation
Member

I believe the robot should be buffed. I would personally make Gamma Fire undeflectable and if the robot still wasn't performing well after that I would increase the base damage. The robot is obviously in need of a buff due to the mere fact that its special is simply an energy attack (with 5% extra damage) -- a deflectable one at that.

Also 5% is hugely negligible for anyone wanting to use that as an excuse to do nothing (Machaar pretty much explained that in depth). It would take one 800 robot damage to even match the +40 robot damage legendary ranks could give.

Post #: 30

5/27/2015 13:16:55

I Underlord I
Member

Gamma Bot as it currently is does not require a buff. It's purpose has always been pure damage, and it fulfills that role quite well -- a repeatable physical and repeatable energy attack are available, with the latter doing 105% damage (which does add up and in some cases can be the deciding factor for a battle).
Never mind the fact that, as many people have pointed out, rarity does not and should never affect balance.

I would honestly love the option of a pure damage robot with a physical and energy attack, particularly if the "special" (energy) attack deals slightly higher damage.
Certainly, the option for a given special attack is wonderful, however, most such specials can only be used once per battle. Additionally, as powerful as the Infernal Android has the potential to be, I personally would prefer reliable damage output of unrestricted type to a robot relying on a single-use deflectable "nuke" attack, with both the normal attack and the special attack assigned to particular a damage type.

_____________________________

"Memories and thoughts age, just as people do. But certain thoughts can never age, and certain memories can never fade."
~ Haruki Murakami, The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle

AQ	Post #: 31

5/27/2015 14:13:50

Variation
Member

@I Underlord I: Yep its rarity surely shouldn't be the deciding factor on whether or not it gets buffed. That doesn't change the fact when compared to pretty much all robots in the game it's lagging far behind in terms of utilization. Just the robot having both a physical and energy(does an additional 5% damage) spammable attack isn't enough justification to say the robot is fine regardless of how many people claim they'd love a robot like that. The truth of the matter is most of the players who do in fact have access to this robot hardly ever use it.

Now I will go on to address why most hardly use it:

Minor reason: Its damage. In this game a 180+(its damage +10+) damage robot alone will not make you have some huge edge on your opponent.

Major reason: Huge dislike of the special. Yes it's great the special is spammable, however 5% more damage on a deflectable attack is laughable for a robot special. It doesn't matter how much times one could manage to use Gamma Fire -- there are robot specials such as Armor Annihilator, Infernal Overload, Curse of Kartherax, Necrosis, Spore Bombardment, and even Chomp that can only be used one time in the fight while generally being a lot more beneficial than Gamma Fire.

Even for example if Infernal Overload were to be deflected if the person it was used against was any good they would've prepped for it(as in Infernal Overload) and when I'm using Infernal Android that always works in my favor deflected or not.

Spore Bombardment gives one a non-deflectable multi-attack (so it has uses in 2v2) and many EpicDuel strategists that do own a Gamma Bot would use any of the Botanical Borgs over it. They don't care about an energy based robot attack that does an additional 5% damage with a chance to deflect, why would they? The Botanical Borgs' standard attack are deflectable and they offer a special that is not only a 100%(as in not deflectable) hit, but is also applicable to both 2v2 opponents.

Armor Annihilator and Necrosis offer the same amount of damage as Gamma Bot's normal attack, however their specials generally pierce through your opponent's defenses. Why in this game where most battles are typically short should one even need to worry about spamming the specials on the Black Abyss Robots and Blood Hakws?

In fact it's blatantly obvious that most robots' special attack aren't spammable because they offer an immense amount of utility if in the right hands. What does Gamma Bot offer? A deflectable special that does 5% extra damage. In this game against a good player that special will make such a little difference versus his or her say Infernal Android or Blood Hawk. The special needs to stand out like a real special should. At the time it's only special in regards to being spammable and offering 5% extra damage -- both of which in the special's current state, in my sincere opinion are laughable. There is a reason why so little people (who do own it) are using it. The question that needs to be answered and addressed is why? The answer is very obvious to those who have access to the robot. The fact of it being rare matters little to me, and like I stated earlier it shouldn't be a deciding factor on a possible buff for it. The fact it offers very little in terms of today's PvP in EpicDuel should be the deciding factor.

I could go on to elaborate on the other robots' specials, but I just don't see a breakdown on all of their specials an absolute necessity.

< Message edited by Variation -- 5/27/2015 21:17:39 >

Post #: 32

5/27/2015 14:14:04

Darkwing
Member

It's one of the only 3 bots that has both types of damage. It's great since the enemy can have high res and low def, or the other way around.

Infernal android has the special locked only once, the poison bot damage can be healed and it's not that gfreat with good health.

And I think they wanted to say there's no special bot, it's just balance when they made same damage for all.

Balance before special rare thing.

Post #: 33

5/27/2015 14:53:06

Mother1
Member

@ Darkwing

The poison bot doesn't do both kinds of damage.

it the the pyro fly, gamma bot, and infernal android that do both kinds of damage.

Not to mentioned only the gamma bot has two reusable attacks that do 100% or 105% damage.

Epic	Post #: 34

5/27/2015 15:21:35

Darkwing
Member

@Mother 1 WWell, I said poison bot because it's the damage that ignores defense/res except when you first hit.

Post #: 35

5/27/2015 16:36:02

Ronin Of Dreams
Still Watching...

There seems to be some merit in continuing this discussion. However, there also seems to be some unneeded animosity in disagreements. Keep it civil, folks. You never know who will be watching.

AQ	Post #: 36

5/27/2015 18:44:43

King FrostLich
Member

Seeing that I'm the only person who actually owns the bot, I'd say that to make it supremely unique than all others then let it be the only bot that doesn't put its first or second attack skill into cooldown(i.e. Using Gamma Fire doesn't send its physical attack to cooldown vice versa) and increase Gamma Fire's cooldown to 4.(Gamma Punch still is at 3) Buff the special attack to deal 110% damage. Barely anyone still owns this after all.

With the rarity and availability of this bot as well as new meta, this bot would be great again....or at least on par.

Epic	Post #: 37

5/27/2015 18:52:04

Lord Machaar
Member

Concerning the fact that gamma fire is spammable, gamma bot does give you the possibility to do both types of damage, in most cases you will need one making the other attack useless whether it's the normal or special one, and that could be for various reasons:
- Armor can give you the possibility to play with your defense/resistance. This will result in:
- In case resistance is superior than defense by 5%, this means both special and normal attacks will deal the same damage, where in other bots, this won't be a problem, since the special attack will have a special effect that will still do a signicant "thing".
- Gamma fire goes unnoticeable when your opponent is a bit tanky, where it is not the case when it come to infernal overload, IA's special attack is something noticeable, it does a significant amount of damage no matter how much your opponents' resistance. It is not the case for gamma fire.
- Someone has "brought" RNG, I almost totally have forgotten about it, the damage interval dealt by any bot varies between (X and X+40) + the resistance interval (depends on your tech + many other factors but generally varies between 70 - 50), this means the damage interval is so huge, 5% is nothing, as it can go unnoticeable once again. This doesn't apply to infernal overload as 25% is superior than the damage interval.
- Taking the example of support builds now, support builds are case sensitive builds, they can finish you off within 2 turns if you don't play the right moves, epecially when they rage multi, infernal overload is the thing here, it does a significant amount of damage which grants you the ability to force your opponent to whether heal or you might even finish the battle before your opponent gets to rage. Gamma fire once again goes useless as once again you won't survive to use it again.
.......
Simply, a special attack means it will be effective at any circumstances, well, gamma fire won't.

I hope that some members here understand the fact that actually having the bot means that you actually have tested it, it's easy to lay down theories here, but testing is way more different than what you can imagine.

Anyways I hope the testers give it a try on a 1vs1 between gamma bot and any other bot with various builds and cases I have presented above and they will surely understand, as for players who don't have the bot but still give their opinion, belive me, it is way more different than you think.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 5/27/2015 18:58:27 >

Epic

Post #: 38

5/27/2015 19:40:47

Uchiha Sarada
Banned

King Frostlich: Thats a Great Idea for a gamma bot buff and I would like that alot.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 39

5/27/2015 19:55:54

Digital X

Beep Beep! ArchKnight AQ / ED

quote:

Seeing that I'm the only person who actually owns the bot

Yeah, hi!

Personally I think it is fine. the damage is not weak by any means and I believe it to be a good, well rounded pure damage bot. Sure it doesn't have a skill but I would prefer damage over skills on most bots anyway.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 40

5/27/2015 21:32:30

Variation
Member

@King FrostLich:

quote:

Seeing that I'm the only person who actually owns the bot...

Be careful with such assumptions :D.

quote:

With the rarity and availability of this bot as well as new meta, this bot would be great again....or at least on par.

The rarity of the bot should have absolutely nothing to do with the balance of it. The fact it's rare and only a few of us have access to it is irrelevant and I'm not even too sure why so many people are riding on its rarity in a balance thread. I completely agree with a buff to it, but only because it's deserving of one. The fact that it's very rare and only a few of us have access to the Gamma Bot truly is irrelevant.

If it were to be buffed (discretion is up to the balance team) the change(s) to the robot would be tested beforehand to make sure it isn't too powerful in relation to the other robots.

Post #: 41

5/27/2015 23:43:31

The berserker killer
Member

Then why not buff Cyber Yeti? Unlike Gamma Bot it has only 1 attack. What makes gamma bot need a special?

Edit: There's no way you guys can support this just because it's a rare bot. It has 2 attacks that are not only spammable but have different elemnts (P & E).

Cyber Yeti: Only has one attack, specials not spammable.

Assault Bot: One attack. Specials not spammable.

Due to the fact that Cyber Yeti and Assault Bot have an extremely limited use, these bots should be buffed. I don't think rarity should matter

< Message edited by The berserker killer -- 5/27/2015 23:47:39 >

Epic

Post #: 42

5/28/2015 2:13:13

King FrostLich
Member

quote:

Then why not buff Cyber Yeti? Unlike Gamma Bot it has only 1 attack. What makes gamma bot need a special?

Cyber Yeti is a situational type of bot. With the right prediction of your opponent's skill cooldowns, this bot is extremely useful in most cases where forcing a person to rage at you with an unblockable or strikes can pin him down especially when you have cornered him having no energy at all, serving its purpose easily. The only downside is that it costs varium which I find weird.

quote:

Edit: There's no way you guys can support this just because it's a rare bot. It has 2 attacks that are not only spammable but have different elemnts (P & E).

Cyber Yeti: Only has one attack, specials not spammable.

Assault Bot: One attack. Specials not spammable.

Infernal Android also has a P and E element. However, Gamma Bot's damage is very predictable and easily counterable by high tech or just a flat out large resistance and even with rage, it only has the power of a medium leveled Plasma Rain with high tech(I think it scales with tech?) and is deflectable. No need to speak about the P part as I find it a bit tad ok but not enough to be considered good enough.

Cyber Yeti is situational as mentioned above, Assault Bot nowadays also is situational but with the current meta it really is useless as builds being used no longer have the need for debuffs.(malf and smoke aren't great anymore though still versatile) Back in the old days, where ED life was simple and had no robots, wasn't x10 of everything and had three classes(TM, Merc and BH)there were just the right amount of attacks and skills that didn't need to waste a turn just to do this and that just to place alot of damage against each other. We had reroute that did the mana for TM, bloodlust for BH to recover hp everytime they hit, and mercs having the old hybrid armor that is switchable to resistance vice versa.

In this meta, you need to cast mana on every skill you have to use, basically consuming a turn to do minimal damage instead of the old days when you can just hit someone, heal, get a booster(though it was a bit of OP yet useful for boss fights) you didn't have to do this and that. Now that we're in to the 'Energy Consumption Era', every turn you make counts for damage or drain/recover mana and its confusing too as you can't easily go on and remember cooldowns and combos as it were than before.

< Message edited by King FrostLich -- 5/28/2015 2:19:42 >

_____________________________

Epic	Post #: 43

5/28/2015 5:11:46

King Bling
Member

True, if compared to gamma bot, the assault bot is utter crap, and thus should be buffed just like you compare IA with gamma bot and ask for a buff. As simple as that.

(No need to delete this post as it is related to the topic.)

Post #: 44

5/28/2015 5:19:49

Uchiha Sarada
Banned

No King, Assault is a bad bot because nobody uses debuffs like before, back in the days, debuffs were the thing that all the classes were using and assault bot was the best thing out there, so its way different.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 45

5/28/2015 5:21:10

Ranloth
Banned

^ The only difference is, Assault Bot was at 85% back then - and not 70%, like it is now. It does make a huge difference.

Epic

Post #: 46

5/28/2015 7:28:39

Mother1
Member

@ Ranloth

It was 80 percent cleanse originally not 85% before it was nerfed to 65% due it being too useful back then.

Epic	Post #: 47

5/28/2015 7:39:56

Rogue Ninja
Member

Does it really need a fix? I'm a Gamma Bot user myself it works out fine. You could use the Gamma Punch or the Gamma Fire depends on your strategy. It's the best bot there is that is versatile in Physical or Energy attacks and the special can be used as many times as you can than Infernal Android.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 48

5/28/2015 9:19:25

Lord Machaar
Member

It is funny when you compare a 2 different type of bots, there are currently 2 types of bots:
A- Damage-Only bots, where both special and normal attack deals damage. (Used with 5 focus builds only, e.g: gamma bot, IA...)
B- Damage with a special attack bots, where normal attack deals damage while the special attack deals a special effect. (Used with any build, e.g: Blood hawk, acid bot...)

When you compare X and Y bots from different categories, is first of all wrong, because category A bots are meant to deal more damage, while category B bots aren't meant to deal more damage.

Could you stop saying that gamma fire is a special attack? Because frankly it is not. Check my last reply for various reasons why this "special attack" can go unnoticed, in some cases it can deal the same damage as gamma punch. What so special about it? Do we even need both P and E attacks in this situation, if both of them deal the same damage?

Epic

Post #: 49

5/28/2015 9:26:43

Mother1
Member

@ Lord machaar

once again you forget that gamma fire does more damage than gamma punch. Even if it is 5% more it is still more damage.

Also if we were to compare damage only robots the gamma bot is the second strongest or strongest depending on the time in the duel.

Before the infernal android powers up to 110% the gamma bot's gamma fire out classes it, and only after it reach that point it is the second strongest.

Also how many robots can use both kinds of attack within one.

Answer only 3 and of those three how many of them can use them both more than once? Answer only the gamma bot.

Pyro fly's pyro swarm (even thought it isn't an attack type robot) can only be used once then the bot is locked to energy damage. The same for the infernal android which means that after infernal overload is used it is locked to being a physical robot only. Gamma bot has no such limit so that right there makes it's special special no matter how much people want to downplay it.

Epic	Post #: 50

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