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10/27/2015 5:13:01   
Thylek Shran
Member

Actually it does indirectly improve with Strenght as it is based on Strike damage.

This does benefit TM Strenght builds to much I think as they are about impossible
to counter with some defensive shield buffs (not Hybrid Armor and Shadow Arts)
when they have "Bludgeon + Fire Scythe + Energy sword" while TM Support
builds do miss a usefull physical damage skill and rely to much on Overload and
Malfunction.
Ironically its especially the TM class that has the most problems to counter
TM Strenght builds as they cannot lower Strenght and have splitted defensive buffs.
So they are highly dependant on luck (block, stun, crits) or can try to outdamage
the Strenght build which hardly is possible. Only a Dexterity build has good chances
to counter them which is Rock-Paper-Scissor.


So my idea is to let Fire Scythe improve by Support with its own damage table.
It has to be weaker than Overload and could fill the huge damage gap between
Overload/Aux and Primary/Sidearm for Support builds.

Why not let Fire Scythe improve with Technology or Dexterity ?
As builds with a high amount in these stats are already strong and have more
damage type choices. It would make those stats OPed when Fire Scythe would
improve with them. Support still seems to be the weakest skill for TMs.

When Overload does 699 dmg, Fire Scythe could deal 480 dmg with the current
Defense ignore percentage (15-42%). Against a character with an average
Defense of 350 that would effectively be 533 damage at skill level 1
and 627 damage at level 10 when comparing it with Overload.

I changed the EP cost scaling for Fire Scythe from 20 to 10 per skill level
as it was very unefficient at higher skill levels.

Comparison with Overload (Level 40 TM, 150 Support):

Skill level 1
Overload: 120 EP; 519 damage + 25% Stun chance or less
Fire Scythe: 110 EP; 480 damage + 15% Defense ignored
Damage against 250 Defense: 518 = +8% dmg before defenses
Damage against 350 Defense: 533 = +11% dmg before defenses

Skill level 5
Overload: 180 EP; 599 damage + 25% Stun chance or less
Fire Scythe: 150 EP; 480 damage + 27% Defense ignored
Damage against 250 Defense: 548 = +14% dmg before defenses
Damage against 350 Defense: 575 = +20% dmg before defenses

Skill level 10
Overload: 255 EP; 699 damage + 25% Stun chance or less
Fire Scythe: 200 EP; 480 damage + 42% Defense ignored
Damage against 250 Defense: 585 = +22% dmg before defenses
Damage against 350 Defense: 627 = +31% dmg before defenses


TM build comparison for relevant and typical direct damage attacks:

Strenght build: Primary, Malfunction, Bludgeon, Fire Scythe
Dex build: Plasma Rain, Sidearm
Tech build: Plasma Bolt, Supercharge, Auxiliary
5 focus Tech build: Robot, Plasma Bolt, Supercharge
Dex/Tech tank build: Auxiliary, Sidearm
Support build: Overload, Auxiliary, (Fire Scythe)

< Message edited by Thylek Shran -- 11/6/2015 15:47:48 >
DF Epic  Post #: 1
10/27/2015 5:27:23   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


Two skills that scale with support would be overpowered. This idea would essentially give SUPP TMs two 600+ damage attacks (aux and Fire Scythe) and a 700+ damage attack (Overload). Factor in Overload's stun chance and support builds' crit chances, and you have a ridiculous monster on your hands - certainly far more dangerous than SUPP TLMs and their shaky poison attack.

In addition, greater build variety for all classes is a broader initiative as part of the ongoing skills revamp: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=22044884. It would make more sense to just tweak balance at this point instead of creating massive imbalance and wasting resources to correct that, thereby delaying the skills revamp.
Post #: 2
10/27/2015 6:10:00   
Thylek Shran
Member

quote:

This idea would essentially give SUPP TMs two 600+ damage attacks (aux and Fire Scythe) and a 700+ damage attack (Overload).

No, because Overload and Aux do about the same damage. So it would be 2x 700 + 627 at best for
legends with a maxed legendary auxiliary. You have to subtract the opponents defenses from those.

It would not be a monster build as there are not enough skill points to make such a build successfull
as it would lack alot points in Assimilation and Battery Backup and be very vulnerable to energy attacks.
In practice Fire Scythe would be used at 1-5 maybe as it is by far not as energy efficient as Overload.
But it would be great as an additional physical attack to counter high resistance. It could also be used
to counter energy draining skills and as a finishing move. It has to be tested first on the test server.
You seem to forget that Support TLM can use 3 similar powerfull moves already which are Auxiliary,
Artillery Strike and Toxic Grenade. Also Strenght builds (150 Str) can do about 640 dmg (before defenses)
on EVERY move without any Energy Points cost.

Regarding overlapping skills, Overload could be nerfed and Fire Scythe buffed if needed when both would
improve with support and won´t overlap with Blood Mage´s Overload.

< Message edited by Thylek Shran -- 11/6/2015 15:48:30 >
DF Epic  Post #: 3
10/27/2015 6:56:34   
shadow.bane
Member

and fire scythe ! not supported mate ... as silver sky magician said 3 support moves is just op they already are a bit over powered with support builds now , just cause u can't win doesn't mean they should buff it o.O
AQW Epic  Post #: 4
10/27/2015 15:34:44   
Cookiesaregood
Member
 

He actually is so right about this

There are a lot of necessities for support builds to work

-Battery Backup
-Overload
-Assimilation

and a couple of points go to the skills that are required to be clicked before another one can be given access to.

Giving this change to fire scythe will bring a bit of variety and more tactics

The only thing I see as an obstacle is will it increase damage reduction to a certain degree or will it be converted to damage points and have a fixed scale.

If it converts to damage points there is an indirect nerf to strength builds that contain the move and other builds that use less support but use it as an alternative physical attack
Post #: 5
10/27/2015 18:02:02   
Mother1
Member

@SSM

TM actually has 3 moves that scale with support.

Defense matrix
Malfuction
overload

But I agree adding fire scythe to the mix would make TM goes straight to the nerfing block.
Epic  Post #: 6
10/27/2015 19:31:38   
Thylek Shran
Member

Updated Fire Scythe calculations:

- Added skill levels 1 and 5 to the comparison
- Added 250 Defense (opponent) for damage comparison
- Lowered the damage in my earlier calculations by 20
- Lowered the energy cost (EP scaling) for higher skill levels
DF Epic  Post #: 7
11/2/2015 20:30:17   
Cookiesaregood
Member
 

Thylek is actually 100% correct on this Tech Mages have no counter to strength builds unless its a dex build but even that doesnt work out sometimes especially with the high drain rate and unblockable fire scythe.

It seems like Epic Duel wants strength tech mages with all the strength specific items with fire scythe improving with strength (indirectly) bludgeon, Assimilation which improves with strength.

Then they wonder why we cant get build variety when everything is bifocal on 2 specific neccesities which cuts down 20 skills points for tm(Battery, Assim) 2 skills cut out unless your a strength build.

Fire scythe needs and by needs I mean MUST be changed to something viable for all classes which I recommend putting in
Post #: 8
11/2/2015 20:37:47   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


^

Not sure what you mean, TMs have the greatest variety of viable builds and its STR build has the lowest win rate amongst them (not counting support as it's a gimmick)
Post #: 9
11/2/2015 21:21:51   
Cookiesaregood
Member
 

Tm's have a great variety of builds that just lose all the time and STR build DEFINITELY does not have the lowest win rate. Besides that its not the point

Im saying if I vs a tech mage who has a str build and I dont have a kartherax currently in my build(Which I do own one but it doesnt work with my current build atm.
Chances are Im going to lose.
Post #: 10
11/2/2015 22:57:04   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


The thing about support builds is that they are set up to either be fairly weak or be really broken. In battle they're basically extremely offensive caster builds that offer little tank for even heavier hits than regular caster builds, along with a couple other bonuses such as having a high chance of going first. They also innately have 1 more high-damage tool which is their auxiliary. Random bonus damage from crits can also win or lose games with such a volatile build type.

Adding an additional damage skill which scales with support can completely overpower a class's support build because it essentially gives them unstoppable consistent high damage every turn for several turns: crazy enough to the point where, combined with rage and a 2nd use of auxiliary, you can outdamage field medics on very tanky builds.

Not having enough damage skills which scale with support is also a problem as it completely renders the build useless since once it runs out of its cycle of damage options it's completely wasted and has a hard time winning the fight. Doesn't help in 2v2 either to try and play a supporting role with high-strength buffs since defensive buffs are pretty much entirely responsive to the enemy's debuffs or unbalanced equipment choices, and when you're that squishy from support you will get focused again anyways.

And so, something really big needs to happen to support to make it a balanced, viable build option which people can feel comfortable about bringing into random 1v1s, just like something such as focus builds. One option that comes to my mind is to make field medic scale with support again so that they are given some sort of defensive measure that scales with the stat. Of course, there are other options that can be considered but IMO right now support builds in general are in a pretty sticky spot in terms of balance. They either can't deal enough burst damage to make up for their extreme squishiness and lack of sustained damage once they're out of energy and everything's on cooldown, or they do an oppressive amount of damage that barely any build can manage to deal with consistently.
Epic  Post #: 11
11/2/2015 23:03:02   
Cookiesaregood
Member
 

Clearly you havent read the whole Thread Penguin the reason why it wouldnt be op is because it require points from other necessities such as battery ,assim or overload itself you understand?

Adding the fire scythe with support will just give it a use for other build purposes instead of just strength builds
Post #: 12
11/2/2015 23:28:24   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


^

At level 40 I can get max battery backup, overload, fire scythe and level 5 assimilation. Or I can just transfer some points from fire scythe to assimilation if I wish. Assimilation is not particularly useful for support TMs - it has about the same utility as Frenzy on support TLMs because the energy regen is the important part for support TMs, not the drain.

The result is a very broken build indeed. If Overload didn't have a stun chance I would be more amenable to this suggestion, but as it is I find it difficult to accept.



< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 11/2/2015 23:32:03 >
Post #: 13
11/3/2015 0:14:32   
RaXZerGamingZ
Member

or fire scythe should be made deflectable
Post #: 14
11/3/2015 1:13:31   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


quote:

Clearly you havent read the whole Thread Penguin the reason why it wouldnt be op is because it require points from other necessities such as battery ,assim or overload itself you understand?

Adding the fire scythe with support will just give it a use for other build purposes instead of just strength builds


This is just your opinion. You're entitled to one but it doesn't mean it's right nor does it mean I'm obliged to agree with it. Additionally, there are numerous other ways to change fire scythe, to, as you say, "give it a use for other build purposes instead of just strength builds." For example, doing something like making the actual damage flat (based off of a % of your weapon's base damage is a possibility) and non-scaling with stats, then giving a massive buff to the defense ignore, then adding strong scaling to the defense penetration with stat like support so that the skill has the same base damage no matter what build uses it, and is geared towards ruining tanks who stack massive amounts of defenses and low HP.

If I were to change the skill, this is what I would do:

-Change base damage to 100% primary weapon damage rather than based off of 100% strike damage
-Increase the base defense ignore to be 33-69% rather than the current 15-42%
-The defense ignore scales with support of +1% more defense ignored per 5 support, up to a cap of 90% ignore, which would require 155 support at rank 10 of the skill.
-Reduce the cost from 110-290 to 90-225

This basically changes the skill into something clearly more effective for support builds but still has uses across the board for other builds as well. Since its base damage value is rather low, it's more of a skill which costs less energy but clearly punishes people who invest in low HP and very high defense. It's also a good, low-cost alternative for overload when against opponents who put up shields since the % ignore will punch through reflex boost and defense matrix. If they have a lot of resistance this acts as a physical damage alternative as well. It has now essentially become a skill with a very clear identity of what it does and it does it well, while being able to fit onto pretty much any build. Overall it's a strategic alternative to other skills where it can be really cost efficient and a great asset to your kit if you're otherwise countered by people who put up shields very often or just tanky enemies in general, but otherwise very cost-inefficient if utilized poorly or fit onto a build that doesn't necessarily benefit from having it.

And what I was stating is just a generalized statement for all support builds, not specifically TM's version of it. Support builds in general have been in a pretty unhealthy state and the last time I remember them being any fun to both play as or against while not being completely oppressive is actually the BH support focus builds back in gamma.
Epic  Post #: 15
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