RE: Mages are back! (Full Version)

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GoldenFist -> RE: Mages are back! (4/10/2011 23:28:54)

Mages are not back since stat progression changed.
I can't afford to do 1v1's with low defense/tech.
I can surely do 110 health and high support but I will average only 73%.
In that case, to me, mages are NOT back.



helloguy -> RE: Mages are back! (4/11/2011 1:18:53)

@Wiseman what do you mean by "With out much effort" mages put more effort into builds than your stupid strength spamming stun builds. I'm offended by te fact that you think mages lack of effort when all you have to to is click twice and win a battle.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Mages are back! (4/11/2011 1:29:29)

@helloguy
all builds take effort to make and play with, some just a few clicks more than others.



Deadly PoisoN -> RE: Mages are back! (4/11/2011 1:46:51)

@Helloguy,don't know when the last time was i saw someone getting ''pwnd'' that badly.I once fought a mage but i won only by extreme luck,every other mage that has fought me so far has to get lucky in order to defeat me,and i haven't even bought my egg zooka yet.If anyone has seen him or knows him,his name is arcanis.He basically had like like 120hp with 100 or something support.Now that focus is gone on attacks,well he might just be too tough for me to handle if we ever had to meet again.

He didn't deflect or crit once in the match,so i consider that very lucky on my part.That truly is a tough mage,but the majority of mages don't make smart builds,no offense to them or anything.But helloguy,your mage seems about right,judging by the items alone.Arcanis' defenses were his only weakness,but not even that was a real weakness,he had enough defense and his matrix obviously covers that.

He also had me guessing by only using his malf on the 3rd turn.Mages can be the toughest in the game,but it depends on the player that plays the mage.Another impressive mage i saw was tormak,another one with the bunnyzooka etc and he had max overload which he always used as a counter move and i think he only does 2v2.Forgot how exactly his build went,but he was extremely good.


So that's my take on mages,they have to be the most creative to be the strongest and that then also means that wiseman is completely false and the str builds are the ones without effort that needs to go.Even after this update the ones with cyber sheleigh or however you spell it are still only defeatable if they don't stun you.So you want to talk about cheap?I wouldn't,wiseman.




goldslayer1 -> RE: Mages are back! (4/11/2011 1:52:18)

@deadly
so far out of all of my 600+ fights since last release i only got stunned once by a merc.
thats not very OP



Lectrix -> RE: Mages are back! (4/11/2011 1:53:52)

Of course you're not getting stunned, goldslayer; you have 80 Support [8|]



goldslayer1 -> RE: Mages are back! (4/11/2011 1:54:32)

@lectrix
im not going first either >.>
also applies to BH



Deadly PoisoN -> RE: Mages are back! (4/11/2011 1:55:25)

@goldslayer1,holy mary!Rofl,iv'e only done like 200 or so fights since the update,some of you are just too damn fast[:D]I really need to try and get time to play more.Like 600 kills or more?Imo that and anything beyond since the update is legendary.



jegaggin -> RE: Mages are back! (4/11/2011 1:57:02)

i did 500 lsat reset :D



goldslayer1 -> RE: Mages are back! (4/11/2011 2:00:41)

quote:

holy mary!Rofl,iv'e only done like 200 or so fights since the update,some of you are just too damn fast I really need to try and get time to play more.Like 600 kills or more?Imo that and anything beyond since the update is legendary.

well on that same day of the release i got about 200
and like another 250 on next reset. and 165+ today.
its a bit more than 600 but definetly not 700
aside from that
i got like 600+ wins and only 22 losses since last release
2 of which were from the lawman getting lucky (3 blocks and crits)



Nexus... -> RE: Mages are back! (4/11/2011 2:34:20)

@Gold

Sorry about earlier :) I had see you for a few weeks, maybe even longer, with one of those cheap STR merc builds, which as Helloguy mentioned, require little to no skill to make. The problem with the STR merc build atm is that it requires no unique strategy. Even STR BH's have to have a strategy (and certainly mages) in order to get around shields and defenses. However with STR mercs its the same old thing. Stun them, berzerker them. If you get blocked you lose, if you stun you win....etc. Theres not skill involved its all based around a stun. Therefore I am not saying YOU should get nerfed personally (as I realize you have made a new build since) but I believe the unimaginative, cheap winning, no skill requiring, STR Mercs should definitely get a nerf.

Hope you get where I was going with this. Changed my original post; no longer singles you out--

Epice4



Wiseman -> RE: Mages are back! (4/11/2011 2:35:16)

First of all I never said that strength merc wasn't overpowered, though it was mostly in speed not percent. I always use the most overpowered builds when they are available and most of the time I use what I learn while using those builds to give the developers advice on how to weaken them. With that said, I have been all three classes, I have been Strength merc, support merc, tank merc, Stun/Bunker Merc (which will become more popular soon), FC Zerk Merc, Surgical Strike Merc, and +5 Focus Merc.

As a bounty I've been strength bounty (both massacre and smoke+cheapshot variations), support bounty, dex bounty, +5 focus tech/emp bounty, tank bounty, poison/smoke/mass bounty, and a support/dex combo which worked alright. (I'm a bounty hunter right now by the way)

As a Mage I've been heal loop (I even had 170 hp which to my knowledge was the highest), support mage, Strength mage (which is better then people give credit for), dex mage, +5 focus tank mage, and caster mage.

I'll tell you right now, in all my time playing epic duel I have never once came across a build as overpowered as heal loop. With 170 hp and 54 heal at level 30 as well as max reroute, level 6 malf and deadly aim I won 98 percent of my battles without doing any npcs. I literally got 98 percent on the board at 500 wins with NO NPC battles and it was easy, really easy. I could actually multi task while doing it and only half pay attention and still win. If heal loop was to truly come back I would instantly go to mage get about 210 hp and 60 heal and use it until it gets nerfed, because I know i would never lose. Of course I would record the data of my battles, with screen shots and show the developers just how easy it is to win with it afterword, but believe me I'd take advantage of the opportunity in a heartbeat. Why? Because I like to win just like everyone else, the only difference is, if I win too much I get bored of the build and end up trying something new.

Winning is great and all, but winning too much is boring and repetitive, the thing I did like bout stun zerk was that it lost often. You never knew when those loses would come, but they did come and often. Stun zerk was overpowered but not like most people think, it was overpowered in speed, the percent of stun zerk builds averaged at 70-85%. Somebody had to be beating them, just because it wasn't you doesn't make that build overpowered.

Stun zerk was easy, fast and fun. Heal loop was easy, slow and boring. That's the difference.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Mages are back! (4/11/2011 2:41:38)

quote:

Winning is great and all, but winning too much is boring and repetitive, the thing I did like bout stun zerk was that it lost often. You never knew when those loses would come, but they did come and often. Stun zerk was overpowered but not like most people think, it was overpowered in speed, the percent of stun zerk builds averaged at 70-85%. Somebody had to be beating them, just because it wasn't you doesn't make that build overpowered.

Stun zerk was easy, fast and fun. Heal loop was easy, slow and boring. That's the difference.

hope they understood that part :P
alot of people never put themselves in the same shoes as strength mercs, and complain about them being "OP".



Nexus... -> RE: Mages are back! (4/11/2011 2:43:48)

@Wiseman

At least heal looping required the player to have some strategy and skill. A Mage couldn't win by just clicking two skills. I feel like that is the problem. Both builds (Heal looping and STR merc) are OP in different ways. In terms of heal loop, it was so slow, but you could easily get a very good % without much effort. You just had to know what you were doing. With STR merc you can get extremely fast wins without knowing what you are doing. You are literally spamming 2 skills in one of the builds, where the other requires timing, precision, and a strategy in order to win. Don't get me wrong, both are overpowered, but I wouldn't say one is more OP than the other. Loop healers had there time and got nerfed, its now time for the same to happen to the lucky and strategically lacking STR merc.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Mages are back! (4/11/2011 2:47:21)

@nexus
really?
i know a few extreme builds that can kill in 2 turns as a TECH MAGE.
the winrate might be 70%-75% (haven't tried the build now but i lacked the items when i had it maybe now i can make it possible)
haven' tested it in a long time and when i did use it i was low lvl

quote:

With STR merc you can get extremely fast wins without knowing what you are doing. You are literally spamming 2 skills in one of the builds,

what happens when the BH blocks them their maul and zerker?
they dead, thats what happens.
i dont see how they are so OP if blocks are out of control with these BHs.



Nexus... -> RE: Mages are back! (4/11/2011 2:49:11)

There are alot of techmage builds that can win in 1-2 hits, but not against pro's. STR merc can kill a highly skilled veteran tech mage in 2 hits when that mage has 110 HP. There is no way a mage could do that with any realistic build back at a merc or even a mage.

EpicE4

EDIT: I agree, blocks are out of control. However so are STR mercs, well, especially STR mercs. Thats the flaw in the STR merc build that you just pointed out. If one of your skills fail you are totally skrewed. There is no strategy to that. Mercs first, then BH's, or even better, do em at the same time.



jegaggin -> RE: Mages are back! (4/11/2011 2:50:41)

uh nexus ive done what u have said before and u need MAXIMUM damage for both stun beserk otherwise it wont work even with max damage (28-34) it just kills



goldslayer1 -> RE: Mages are back! (4/11/2011 2:53:43)

@nexus
dude ur saying they are indestrucble u know how many times i been killed in 2 turns by mages when i was a str merc?
many times, but i didn't complain, because all classes have their 2 turn kills.
fact remains u have to be extremely LUCKY to go first against a BH, stun him, and the have ur berserker do enough damage to actualy kill since they use 125 hp. (most do)



Nexus... -> RE: Mages are back! (4/11/2011 2:55:02)

@jegaggin
You kidding? If I start with 110 HP and you go first, and stun me....its over. All you have to do is berzerk. This is the STR mage that is current, I have experienced it numerous times, and it sucks to not even have the slightest chance against the same level as yourself. I can't even get a turn off half the time for christs sake lol

EpicE4



goldslayer1 -> RE: Mages are back! (4/11/2011 2:57:57)

quote:

EDIT: I agree, blocks are out of control. However so are STR mercs, well, especially STR mercs. Thats the flaw in the STR merc build that you just pointed out. If one of your skills fail you are totally skrewed. There is no strategy to that. Mercs first, then BH's, or even better, do em at the same time.

thats where ur wrong. it depends on how u set up ur skills.
with my build if my stun gets blocked, i strike, then try to stun again if it works then i use double strike. and that is strategy.
obviously ur use to seeing the real non creative builds which are max stun and lvl 1 zerk.
if i make a build, i make it with an alternative to the original plan, and then an alternative to the ALTERNATIVE
understand?
basically if stun fails, i use the back up plan A fails i use back up plan B.
thats what seprates spam builds from actualy strategy.
a real strength merc WITH strategy can win at 85%-90% with npcs.
a normal str merc wins at 70%-80% with no back up plans and npcs
big difference there kid.

@nexus
when i said 2 turn kills for tech mages i wasn't talking about strength mage. im talking about something far more deadly than a strength mage. str mage will have a problem when they fight BH they will get blocked.



Nexus... -> RE: Mages are back! (4/11/2011 3:00:43)

@Goldslayer

Pray tell, how then, do you get 800 kills :) I understand the build loses, but thats because the WHOLE thing is based upon LUCK. If you have MAX stun, and I go first and malf you, you have a 40% chance to stun me doing 40+ damage in the act of doing so and then another 70 while I am stunned, with no chance of me blocking you. I am sorry but that is unfair. If you do not stun me, then yes, maybe I will win. However its purely unfair to be able to win by spamming 2 skills. NO other build in game can kill a mage with 110 HP in 2 hits, while sustaining 0 damage, I promise.

EpicE4

EDIT: Ok you made a variation....It still relys solely on one skill. Stun. Then two others for back up. Berzerker and Double Strike. C'mon get creative. I know you want to think they are different, but the majority of the STR merc builds out there are as I have explained them. Just because you don't use it doesn't mean its not OP sheesh



Wiseman -> RE: Mages are back! (4/11/2011 3:02:33)

Well I agree with your point bout Heal Loop and Stun Zerk being overpowered in different ways. However I want to point out that most of my loses as a Stun Zerk was to Tech Mages that three shot me, ironically it was by stunning me on the second turn before I zerked. Strategy was simple, Malf, Overload, Aux *win*. Stun zerk mercs all lack technology, however with the new system and the eggzookas I'm fairly certain that stun zerk will begin to get around 88 strength and more tech. They wont win in 2 turns anymore however they will win a lot more often, stun zerk mercs have had their speed nerfed however now they can start getting higher percents. It all balances out in the end, just like heal loop, stun zerk hasn't died and I doubt it ever will, it's just been weakened to the point that its less effective for what people used it for (speed).

People used heal loop for percent but now it wins less so they nerfed it's percent.

People used stun zerk for speed but now its slower so they nerfed it's speed.

Like you said, both where overpowered in their own way, and both have suffered nerfs that stopped their overpowered factors. Stun zerk will still two shot some players however not as often therefor it's speed has been nerfed. Keep in mind that it's still a bit overpowered...but not cause they are mercs, its because STUN itself is overpowered...as I've mentioned before.

Use stun in every build, you will win more. Stuns save lives...well they saves yours anyway.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Mages are back! (4/11/2011 3:04:31)

@nexus
there are other builds that can 2 turn a mage with 110 hp.
a BH with max smoke, max cheapshot, and 138 strength.
lets see, strike just as much as a str merc, but if u add the defense reduce thru smoke thats an extra 10-15 damage.
u ever got hit with a 60-80 cheapshot?

quote:

People used heal loop for percent but now it wins less so they nerfed it's percent.

People used stun zerk for speed but now its slower so they nerfed it's speed.


funny enough people are still blind to see that BH still win at their same speed as before and just as accurate as before.
so BH are still OP like before, which means they are more OP in comparison to the builds of other classes.)


quote:

EDIT: Ok you made a variation....It still relys solely on one skill. Stun. Then two others for back up. Berzerker and Double Strike. C'mon get creative. I know you want to think they are different, but the majority of the STR merc builds out there are as I have explained them. Just because you don't use it doesn't mean its not OP sheesh

so ur saying we rely on stun. any build that has a stun relies on it.
and seeing how ur probably a BH u rely on blocks to win.
how many times a match do u pray for a block?



jegaggin -> RE: Mages are back! (4/11/2011 3:08:42)

idk how many times ive lost to a mage because they shock me with a LVL 1 overload..



Nexus... -> RE: Mages are back! (4/11/2011 3:09:00)

@Wise

There are still Merc builds that 2 time me...quite a few actually. I do not think you can legitimately say that there speed has been "nerfed" as most of the builds are still very similar, in terms of skill and stat :/ Also you must remember that the balance update effected everyone. Everyones defenses and strength/aux was nerfed. My res was nerfed, their STR was nerfed, and. Therefore the damage done is still around the same, so wouldn't the speed be as well? Just sayin.

EDIT: Gold, I'm a tech mage :P AND when did I say BH's weren't OP with there blocks as well? I believe both are OP. I am just saying as of now, I am seeing mercs two time me alot more than say...a BH. I dont know why, but its just how it is, and thats why I am trying to pass this point, because the majority of the LB is STR merc, not SUPER UBER MAX CHEAPSHOT BH's =/ I'm just worried about getting two timed without getting a turn off. If a BH smokes me ill defense matrix, lets see them hit more than 10 with a +32 shield lolz Unfortunately the weapon mercs are using is energy, and technician wastes a turn and lessens damage ratio by very little. Instead of 40-75, its 30-70-30 with technician :/

@Above
I'm sorry to hear that, but that happens to everyone not just you. I really can say with utter confidence, I have been stunned by STR mercs way, way, way more than by mages :) Because unlike mercs, most mage builds don't rely on a stun, its rather their last resort.



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