The Effects of Player Environment (Full Version)

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PD -> The Effects of Player Environment (9/5/2011 2:13:01)

Hey all, I am back.

You guys probably remember this thread I made. Normally I'd post it back up with some clarification, but the Legal Bump rules on this entire forum (meaning the same rule applies to every section of the AEF) say you cannot bump things after 7 days of the last post. So I'll create this one. This time I'll be more clear since... I'll admit my language is quite obscure at times. Anyways, I'll just summarize the main points. Everyone was misinterpreting the Parable anyways.

The Problems that we face today are more the fault of the players than of the Developers themselves. I'll admit that not everyone is responsible for the troubles that we have today... but hear me out. about 90% of the problems we face today have their roots in the mistakes of the players rather than the developers. This includes everything from Stat Inflation to social inequality to paltry releases to Fame. And no, I will not, should not, cannot, and would not blame this on the fault of a single group of players. Understand this post is nothing of the defense of the developers. They've done their own mistakes. However, the problems we tout out of are the problems that we players have created.

Now, the topic of this post is "The Effects of Player Environment". Yes, I'll get to that right now.

You see, for the last week I've been recording answers from Oz World 6 and other places in the world of the in-game community. I asked them a few questions:

"Would you Buy weapons that are stronger than the ones you have already?"
"Do you seek advantage over other players?"
"Would you Buy weapons that will make you weaker?"
"Do you think that there's inequality in ED?"
"Why do you think there is inequality in ED?"

Everyone gave their answers. Just about everyone I questioned these five questions answered Yes, Yes, No, Yes on the first three questions. The fifth one was free response, so I received a wide variety of answers for that one (Many of the reasons were similar, but not the same). Now I don't have a problem with the way people answered it. In fact, I appreciated it. The interesting thing though was that I isolated a single, repeating pattern in the mindsets of these people. Now what does this tell me? Yes, The environment has just about conditioned most of the problems we have today. And the players are the reflection of their environment.

Let me give the classic but easiest of examples: The infamous problem we know today as Stat Inflation.

You see, it all started back in Beta, with the Frostbane. Now, most people believe that Beta was the best of Epicduel times. I respect this view, but it's important to establish a time frame. Ok... As I said, the Frostbane in Beta was the most powerful weapon in the game in terms of stat yield. Now, because of the amount of power between other weapons and Frostbane, there was trouble. To those people who had Frostbane, it was simply not worth it to buy primaries that had weaker amounts of stats or simply unfavorable stat allocation (This is before Enhancements so the stats could not be changed). As a result, to keep people buying, the ED Team only had 2 options - Make The Frostbane the supreme weapon for a while (Thereby ruining revenue) or simply make more powerful weapons. This created the problem of intrinsic obsolescence, or the periodic cycle that systematically makes weapons useless.

But pay attention - How did this problem arise? Simple. It was from the environment - We Saw the Stats, we didn't like the stats, and then we didn't buy the weapon because we didn't like the the stats, and then we tell our friends we didn't buy it because "it sucked". It can't get any more simple than that. Now understand that's just 1 way the environment takes control of the people.

Whether we realize it or not, the players really do influence the balance of the game. We just don't do it in the most obvious ways. Stat inflation wasn't created overnight. Heal Loop Builds weren't created over night. And all the Problems that are rooted in stat inflation were definitely not created overnight. They are the results of our behavior - Better, and improving. They become problems that seem to bypass the mind filters within our heads.

Now let me further explain this. We players of Epicduel came from AE. Well at least enough that the players who didn't come from AE are by now totally discounted by the rest. We on a daily basis in game, behind the backs of the developers, tell and spread that AE and its player base ruined the game that we all so love and play. But wait a minute... aren't WE from AE? Doesn't that contradict the notion that Beta Players and its times were the best when we have become conditioned to believe that AE ruined ED? You gotta wonder how that logic works. But that does not come from the player. Rather, that came from the environment because we were told that if you paid early, you would become a founder, and therefore, get an advantage over the crowd, and get rewards. As a result, most of the players took the bait, and upgraded. This created the result of an un-proportionate amount of Founders and Paying Players.

We learned to grow with AE's system of beliefs. We expected a release once a week, every week, chock full of cool and powerful weapons, features and pets. Awesomeness and Storyline. And the whole package deal of it all. We came from AE, expected what we expected from an AE game. Unfortunately we didn't quite find out so early that the ED staff was so small. Our Expectations, too high, and too romantic. We demanded "our value for what we paid for", and among other things. We wanted to feel that we were really getting something worth our money. Unfortunately it's a clash of two different value systems and setups. It just does not work the same.

Because of our values that we were conditioned to know, we stepped into ED, and became disappointed with what we got. Our expectations literally doubled overnight. If you take a look at ED's most early releases... they were pretty small. But people were happy because they were conditioned by the environment that they had small to medium sized releases. But that is not the case with AE. We demanded AE sized releases. Not ED Alpha Sized Releases. Those were small. Not big like the ones we have now. Yes, they were updated much more often, but that was not on the same magnitude as creating more and more weapons per release. Because we didn't get what we wanted. We got mad.

We in AE were ingrown to the belief that rares should be "blessed" with the "Birthright" of "All Rares Should be equally if not more powerful than the last series of rare weapons". And if we didn't get that then we'd assert our "But I paid for it it's worth $X dollars!". We would then go on to ask for entitlements and benefits just like all the other AE games. We asked for unrealistic benefits and rewards. Because we got this in AE, we wanted this in ED. But that can't always happen. You cannot exceed your environment.

And among other things that came about as of the environment: We do "f4f" in game because we were receiving feedback that doing so was socially acceptable. We all huddled up in the Last world of Central Station because people were compelled by the environment to hang out with these people, because they were popular or for other attractive reasons; Or just because that's where everyone was, and where all the exciting talk was happening. Furthermore, people don't copy other people's builds until they see or hear how good the build is. They don't do it because they can . They do it because they adapt to their environment.

We can't keep blaming a certain group of players for ruining the game's balance. It has nothing to do with the specific groups of people. If anything, it's the collective physiology of people from the environment that is the sole root of the problem. We don't learn to behave a certain way until we see other people do so. The Gamma Players act as they are now because they learned those behaviors from the Beta Players. Delta Players learned from the Gamma Players. It's because we wish to feel that we're doing something right. People believe if they see someone else doing something, they're probably doing it right. What we do is telling others what is and is not acceptable. We've all been conditioned to love the times of beta because we've been persuaded by other people's reasons. Not our own. Yet nobody ever thinks about the whole of the game, including the non varium players.

It feels sad really. People don't understand that the players are the reflection of the environment of which influences the minds of people. If we don't realize soon that the environment itself is the problem, we're all going to fail the test of time. We have to change our value systems and some of our behaviors. It's the only way to make the game better in the long run.

And one last thing, before you try to deny yourself and tell me that I'm wrong, please be careful about it. Two people in the last thread were banned because they called me a communist. Please be civil.



Joe10112 -> RE: The Effects of Player Environment (9/5/2011 2:19:14)

Wow. Epic post. I totally have to say, Beta was pretty good...although I feel that Mercs were still just a little overpowered back then.

I agree, we do need to change our ideas and philosophies about this game. But there is only one problem-we're like those rodent creatures, who follow one another, even if we run off a cliff, we all just fall with the leader. We just trust the guy in front of us is making the correct statement and then we spew it out to the next who says it to the next...

But it's hard. It's like we have a giant 10 foot rodent at the head. It'll be hard to change the path that rodent is running. It's a snowball, once it gets started, the only thing that can stop it is a hard wall. This "not buffing anymore rares" was probably the impact with the wall, but only the beginning. As part of the snowball, I feel like it would have been better if we rolled on a hot surface, we defrost little by little, instead of hitting a wall and exploding all over the place. It's not too late though, we can repack the snowball and slowly let it melt by rolling it over a hot surface, by making everyone happy. Buff these Dragon/Back to school weps because it was not announced to not buff them, and then make it clear with a DN post that the other rares after this will not be buffed. I think this is a great idea. Buff these weps, then buff no more and make it clear.

All in all, I really agree with your post.



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: The Effects of Player Environment (9/5/2011 4:27:37)

@PD

I agree with the main points of your post. However it is undeniable that certain key facets of the environment were created by the devs; such as the introduction of Frostbane creating a slippery slope with increasingly better weapons, enhancements and fame. The devs made some bad decisions; fame was one such decision. Presumably its purpose was to foster community spirit; to exemplify and reward those who had truly contributed to the community. It backfired spectacularly.

Surely it is natural to improve oneself; more fame, more achievements, more wins, better weapons, better builds. These are all visible manifestations. Few wish to become a better player; benefits are not evidently visible. Hence most undertake any legal (some illegal) means to get what they want. Copying builds, buying varium, changing class, begging for fame. The trends created by the actions of numerous players may help them attain their individual goals, but are detrimental to the game's direction.

It is evident that EpicDuel's problems stem from two main sources. One of them, as you have quite rightly mentioned, is the player body itself; its unrealistic expectations, lack of respect and virtual materialism. The other is the bad decisions made by the devs; perhaps due to their desire to please the players, improve EpicDuel, and retain the authority to inject their own creativity and individuality into EpicDuel.

These are aggravated by the lack of communication - and this is the true issue. For it is impractical for the community to change their values on their own; in fact these values are expected given that EpicDuel is a highly competitive game. Unlike most other AE games, one's gain is another's loss; hence the heightened emotions and demands for balance.

Back to lack of communication. I believe much dissatisfaction would have been prevented had the devs clearly stated, once it became clear that things were spiralling out of control, that this was the nature of EpicDuel releases. That they welcomed constructive feedback, but abhorred flaming. That, perhaps, the players were being unrealistic and even unreasonable. That having paid for the game does not make one the master of it.

To this date, I have not seen any clear and blunt statement like this. Instead players are introduced to an environment and are absorbed into its surface; a surface constructed by unrealistic and destructive players, for they shout loudest. The constructive ones -and underlying complexities- lie beneath the surface; but by the time players have found them, their mindset is already fixed.

Again, it is not entirely the players' fault. The devs should inform the players of their decisions a reasonable time before the release. The lack of buffs was not a major issue, but something like the Juggernaut Cards was. Furthermore they should not be afraid of revising or even scrapping released features; and they should justify potentially controversial decisions.

Headway has been made; slowly, but surely. Personally I think humility with courteous bluntness is needed; both for the devs and for the players. A suggestion I would like to make is a prominent link on the EpicDuel page; preferably on the login page, directing users to the EpicDuel forums; the forum community does not equate the EpicDuel community, after all.

P.S. PD, what was your interpretation of the parable that you used and why did you say that it was misinterpreted by many?



MirageD -> RE: The Effects of Player Environment (9/5/2011 9:10:33)

i personally think that it is very sad and unfortunate that it appears this thread is classifying the entire ED player community as a bunch of mindless zombies/sheep following the herd over a cliff :(

i realize that currently there is a lot of player dissatisfaction but i believe it is, for the most part, due to things like the lack of communication and the introduction of things like fame, focus, agility, war battles etc. None of which were implemented as a result of player requests.



ND Mallet -> RE: The Effects of Player Environment (9/5/2011 10:05:42)

@miraged Those items were never specifically asked for but they are the results of vague suggestions made by the community. "We want something other than abusing stats to make us good," BLAM! we have focus to make us good without abusing one stat. "Heal looping needs nerfed," BLAM! we have agility preventing mages from abusing 170 health to loop heals not to mention the extra cooldown. "Factions need improved on," BLAM! warkills now make it more interesting since you need more than just to mindlessly battle and gain top influence of your side. Now your side has to win and you need top influence all over. Fame itself was an oddball since it was made by the Developers to allow word to be spread of ED and it does work since I see F4F in non ED groups and profiles and people are always curious about it there on out. "Be careful what you wish for because you might get it." The community wasn't careful when they wished so they ended up with something they didn't like.



Fay Beeee -> RE: The Effects of Player Environment (9/5/2011 10:12:33)

^
MirageD
I am feeling this also.

And would like to say, from the players that are not lemmings and on their behalf (I hope).

While I agree that a lot has been cause by the 'forumites', because we have a lot of strong willed people. When suggestions were originally made (imo) and were lucky enough to be accepted, the 'suggesters' assumed they were made because of their actions alone. This is where a precedent arose. From then on, a lot followed suit. With over heated suggestions and a lot of players 'knowing what is best for the game'

So my solution to this is simple and will not be liked by most.

How about if ED says
"We will do 'UPDATES'
"We will do fixes'
"We will tell you a date - ahead of time"

BUT

"We will NOT tell you which items will be included - you will just have to wait and see."
"We will post weapons etc. in the design notes but not which ones."
The ONLY specific ones will be promotional items.
Any suggestions for game change/improvement will only be posted in the Suggestions Thread - which will then be separated into sections.


Bit drastic? May be, but we are on a never ending circle and we need to get off.

I am not as eloquent as PD or LB but this is my opinion. No offence meant





MirageD -> RE: The Effects of Player Environment (9/5/2011 10:32:49)

i agree with your suggestions fay :).....i'm so glad to see suggestions rather than an endless "chicken before the egg?" "blame game"



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: The Effects of Player Environment (9/5/2011 10:40:57)

@Fay Beee

Isn't that what the devs are currently doing?



Sparticus -> RE: The Effects of Player Environment (9/5/2011 10:41:34)

Ahh, I can't believe I was tricked into reading the same post over again. This is a rehashed discussion.

Fay, Mirage and many players in many other threads about this very same topic have correctly attempted to addressed this.
Thanks for your thoughtful input. I to, do not agree with the basic premise that players are to blame for their own troubles here.
Every other thought that springs from that premise, therefore, does not hold power over me.



PivotalDisorder -> RE: The Effects of Player Environment (9/5/2011 12:31:20)

lol if it was my game, the player base would be tiny.

id change a class so it was really powerful, then when people class changed to it id ban them :) get rid of a ton of players no one would miss.

some good ideas in this topic but lets not forget something. this is just a flash game.



Giras Wolfe -> RE: The Effects of Player Environment (9/5/2011 12:57:36)

Maybe we're over thinking this a little bit. Players want power, and the developers sell them that power in a relatively temporary state. Then it sells the next wave of "power" to the next wave of players willing to spend money on this game.

It would be the developers fault for exploiting the inherent desire to succeed and be the strongest to gain profit, not the players. It is just about as likely that the entire player base of this game would flat-out refuse to buy an overpowered weapon in the interest of balance, as it is that everyone on earth would agree to ignore their differences and just get along. It's just not human nature. People seek visible validation that they've accomplished something significant. Good win/loss rates, a high number of stars on a player, fame, sheer number of kills. They're all things we as humans instinctively desire, to accomplish and have that accomplishment acknowledged. I would blame the developers for exploiting that. Maybe frostbane was an honest mistake, that they didn't realize the consequences of at the time. At this point it would take a lot of maturity and swallowing of financial losses to release weapons of approximately equal power, not constantly increasing, but in the long run it's what this game needs.

You can blame the player for allowing himself to get caught up in this system, but nothing can be done to change human nature. Instead I would blame the faulty system of the game for blindly granting players an extra edge of power week after week for more and more money. Its not turning epicduel into a lasting and healthy game, but one on the path to ultimate failure.



XWorstNightmareX -> RE: The Effects of Player Environment (9/5/2011 14:56:56)

quote:

And one last thing, before you try to deny yourself and tell me that I'm wrong, please be careful about it. Two people in the last thread were banned because they called me a communist. Please be civil.


Sounds like a threat....

I don't even know why you created this thread, to say everyone is a mindless zombie?, I can assure you most of the comments will be from angry players, but that's not a problem anymore since you threatened them all now is it?



Wiseman -> RE: The Effects of Player Environment (9/5/2011 16:45:52)

I want to post my thoughts about this topic and some might be surprised on how I view the issue.

I think that the players are partly to blame, this is true, however the developers are just as responsible for many of the problems as the players are.

When the players requested or demanded features, the Developers released them, interestingly afterword players blamed them of "wanting more money so they release these features". The fact is the opposite is true, the Developers released those features for the players, because they where in high demand and the Devs want their players to be happy, however in the long term this decision has probably been a bigger financial loss than a gain.

First of all, there is something called popular demand, and when something is popular it's only natural for a company to make it cost extra, it's the simple rule of supply and demand. Look at class change for example, back with it was 1500 Varium many players wanted to change class, and there where only 3 classes to choose from. So it was more expensive, now that there are 6 classes and the demand for class change isn't as high, they lowered the price of the feature.

These features where asked for by the players and where released in response to the high demand the Devs received for them, this includes fame, because fame was the Developers way of addressing the "we want more than just PvP" issue. Fame is something that the casual gamer can actually enjoy, and it doesn't involve PvP battles, you don't even need to actually be playing the game to utilize the feature.

Now at this point I'm sure your asking where the Developers come in the picture, after all they ARE just as responsible as the players.

The answer is simple, they catered to the demands, without gaining enough info first, and yes this is a communication issue. If they had really picked apart the suggestions that where in high demand, we would see a very different version of enhancements, fame probably wouldn't exist, and heal loop would have been handled in a more simple, yet equally effective method. Focus would probably be a new stat that requires points like the other stats, and class change would have been a (buy 3 get the rest free *or at least cheaper*) feature.

Also some changes where just bad all around, the players wanted more stats for weapons (this is about stat inflation issue), and the Developers gave them what the wanted. That was a bad move, that single choice is what made the game start the downward spiral that it's just now starting to recover from. If the Developers had simply said something like "No, the Frostbane was a premium weapon that was granted to the early supporters of the game after the AE merge, and it will never return" and simply continued with their original stat system, then all would have been well.

The simple fact is you have to know when to refuse the players, and when to cater to their demands, the players do not always know what they truly want or what is truly best for the game. Illuminator made a post a while back which showed examples of player demanded features, that where released and hated by the same players that demanded them. "Be careful what you wish for" is a very good quote to use in this situation, because the players did get what they asked for, but not what they really wanted. Once again though, that would have been avoided if the Developers had simply paid closer attention to what the players truly wanted, or simply refused knowing that what they players wanted could potentially ruin the game.

Satisfying the players is important, however it should take a backseat to actually doing whats right for the game. If satisfying the players would negatively effect the game itself, then the game should take priority over the players. As you can see, when you try to satisfy the players at the cost of the game, it just leads to the players hating the game in the long run, so thinking ahead and doing what's best for the game itself, is the correct way to proceed.

I hope that everyone understands my point, and sees why the players and the developers are equally responsible for the current state of ED.



MirageD -> RE: The Effects of Player Environment (9/5/2011 17:37:24)

wise,

i greatly appreciate your post.....i have posted many times (and have been banned because of it) that i think the whole problem with ED at the moment is AE mis-management of this game. i'm not saying it's necessarily titan's and nw's fault....but i think they need help....there is a certain aspect of software development that absolutely requires attention to performance, schedule, and cost.....i think that ED is imploding because of the lack of addressing all aspects of the critical development triangle...

there should not be, nor should there ever have been, knee jerk reactions to a couple of forumite's complaints....seriously :(....is that the fault of the community at large???

i'm hoping that the ED developers, with the help of AE, will be able to unravel the mess we are now in....and continue to provide the great game that they started....after all....i don't think there would be such a great community input if this wasn't a GREAT game to start with :)

there are a lot of ppl who care about this game....and i only hope they aren't made to feel bad....just because they are "trying to help" / "complaining"



Lord Barrius -> RE: The Effects of Player Environment (9/5/2011 19:27:50)

I think you may want to re-read his statements, MirageD.

The stark difference between your stance and his is that he isn't saying that AE has mismanaged the game. Nothing of the sort, actually.

And the stark difference between the way you think and what is actually the case is this: the presence of team. Wiseman did not, and is not, pointing fingers at individuals, or even at AE as a whole. He's saying "the developers" as a unit, as a team.



revenn -> RE: The Effects of Player Environment (9/5/2011 19:47:45)

I agree with Wiseman's post.

The one key thing I disagree with even on his post however is passing any blame on players. The ED staff knows that a very high percent of our players are very young. Younger folk want one thing...''What they want, when they want it in the quickest way.'' The ED staff gave them what they wanted without looking into it as needed. It's like a 12 year old saying '' Dad I want a car!'' and the father giving them a car that runs 220mph and saying ''Have fun son!'' For one the child will probably die, just as this game is.

At the end of the day the staff has the power. They should have chosen carefully for the game as a whole, instead of catering to whining children. They have also always had a problem with choosing a higher income over a higher form of enjoyment. A better game. A better community.

In my honest opinion 2-3 more releases that focus on the correct thing could make this game huge. With that draw they could then relax as more people get involved with ED. Then they could worry more about income, because I understand more then anyone that you have to pay the bills.

Now is the time to make a choice. Become a sellout and milk this dying cow for all its worth OR make a vibrant game with a stellar community.



Cinderella -> RE: The Effects of Player Environment (9/5/2011 20:59:40)

I want to point out something I said in a previous post- Nightwraith and Titan probably took too long to realize that the player base that we have currently is not as mature as a player base as we have had in the past. Our initial player base was college students and college-age students, with the occasional kid (the majority being our friends' or relatives' kids) or 35+ adult. AE games tend to attract a player base of young teenagers, and young teens and pre-teens aren't at fault for being immature- I admit that I'm also often at fault for assuming people who complain to me are my peers and not someone half my age or younger (I'm not that old, but I often do forget that many people who come at me, swearing at me, etc. are 11 years old or younger). Young players tend to be more demanding because of inherent issues with being young and having that level of maturity.

Age removed. PM on why it was removed coming soon. ~Mecha



Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: The Effects of Player Environment (9/5/2011 21:21:12)



From my perspective, AE does have some responsibility in regard to pricing. Though not a topic that should be addressed, sadly, it is also an element causing some frustration. For most of Gamma, the exclusive promo only for the high end package was sought after for the issues of stats/battle exclusives and it being free. And for players who wanted to get the item in-game, there was a major inflation to obtain it, up to 1/5 cost of the 10k varium package not including enhancements. This was repeated throughout Gamma with one exclusive after another, and with the compound issue of varium only enhancements, it was truly a way for the current demographics to loose their value quickly.

Sadly, people wanted more rares and more power, and the game provided many, many rares and lots of power.

The responsibility of the current state is every perspective group. The game went too fast because we wanted more and the game gave more.

I am happy the game is now addressing the issues, and the challenge now is how to deal with single issues that were invested into, so the players who did purchase them know, their purchase has some value and worth.

The game went too fast, and past many people financially, emotionally and dependability.

Hopefully if the game slows down enough, we will see more features layers that can accompany the standard pvp, so the experience is more enjoyable.



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: The Effects of Player Environment (9/5/2011 21:35:23)

@Nightmare
quote:

quote:



And one last thing, before you try to deny yourself and tell me that I'm wrong, please be careful about it. Two people in the last thread were banned because they called me a communist. Please be civil.


Sounds like a threat....

I don't even know why you created this thread, to say everyone is a mindless zombie?, I can assure you most of the comments will be from angry players, but that's not a problem anymore since you threatened them all now is it?


I don't think PD meant it as a threat; more like a notice, or warning. Being civil does not equate inability to disagree; an inability to realise this has led to much of the flaming in ED. No one in their right mind would feel threatened by such a statement, and threat only make angry players more liable to flame anyway.

Besides that...I appreciate Wiseman's and other's posts, and would agree with Wiseman most.

P.S. Seems like no one read my original post. [>:]



nico0las -> RE: The Effects of Player Environment (9/5/2011 21:44:32)

I agree with the majority of this, excluding one thing you said:
quote:

We can't keep blaming a certain group of players for ruining the game's balance. It has nothing to do with the specific groups of people. If anything, it's the collective physiology of people from the environment that is the sole root of the problem.
.
We can't, you're right. But as Cinderella pointed out, a large percentage of the players aren't mature enough to respect that. Sure, I've ranted about how an item, a skill, a class, has tipped the scales of balance, but at the end of the day, it's just the way it is. Balance is not an issue for someone smart enough to find a strategy to win. Now, having said that, and as I said earlier, a lot of the players are young and are not, if not incapable, unlikely to find a way to win. Hence, they whine and whatnot.

@wiseman I don't see how the developers are to blame for this. We, here on the forums, discuss what we could do (by "we", I mean the developers) to make the game fun(er). The players ask, the developers deliver. Of course, this small percentage of players who actually read and post on the forums can't speak for the larger percentage of players who do not.
The devs do what the players ask. If the players aren't grateful, that is entirely their issue for being too hard-headed to be pleased with what they already have. It's not the devs fault that players are greedy and desperate for something new. As I've said many times, the game is a BATTLE ENGINE. It says nowhere that we need...fame, for example. I see it as entirely the players' fault for always wanting more.

Also, related to rares.
As wiseman said, popular demand demands for bigger, better, cooler items. Satisfying the players is a challenge, and for the devs to do it consecutively, is highly unlikely.
The stat issue DID get out of hand, granted. Again, it's something the players and devs did not anticipate. I still see this as entirely the players' fault. Demanding stronger rares will cause an imbalance. Seeing as Delta was called the evolution, I'll say this: Evolve and adapt, or die trying.

@below Scratch what I said about fame. The only error was adding achievements for fame and other useless goals ( Landlord, One in a million). Like you said, begging presents a problem, but seeing as fame has already been implemented, it's not going anywhere. What I don't understand is people beg for fame PAST 1000 fame. It's fruitless to beg after that mark, because only one player has achieved 10 000 fame, Zeal overlord. Titan also has, but seeing as he is an admin, I didn't bother. Stars also caused a problem.

Stars are merely a way of pointing out how long, and how much, you play ED. Really, they do absolutely nothing. I've annihilated players with six and seven stars without breaking a sweat, so to speak. I sit a 5 stars, and I'm a founder and so on. Why do I sit at 5 stars? Because I have donated 100% of my earner tokens to my faction since I joined, and I don't play so often (I'm slowly playing more and more.)
So to whoever's reading, stars don't make you better. They're just "bling", and provide absolutely nothing. Fretting over your lack of stars is useless. If you really want stars, just win a lot.



PD -> RE: The Effects of Player Environment (9/5/2011 21:49:29)

I actually appreciate criticism. It's telling me what I'm apparently doing wrong or am doing wrong.

And yes, I've read your post SSM.

Also, to everyone, I've acknowledged that the devs have their share of problems that they did, but the problems that WE complain about on a daily basis... those were made by the players who were receiving feedback from the environment. I'll elaborate on the part of fame as an example:

Yes, the Developers created the feature we know as fame. Understand that the intended use does not always lead to the actual use. In this case, the Developers wanted the Fame Feature to be something of a "recruitment and advertisement" promotion thing. This meant that originally, you were supposed to use fame to promote the game, and to click on the side advertisements (Google services makes the ads relevant, to encourage checking out the advertisements). However, they knew nobody would understand this, so they created the "Reward Factor" - Achievements for fame. What did this cause? Easy. Mindless begging and spamming. We made it worse by twisting the intended use with a different actual use.

It's because people have been told in through their environments that, "More Stars = Better". Now normally if there weren't a reward factor, Fame would be underused. But in a game and society where reward factors are often used to promote an agenda... the actual purpose gets lost due to environmental cajoling.



Giras Wolfe -> RE: The Effects of Player Environment (9/5/2011 21:54:13)

I'd have to agree with wiseman.



Wraith -> RE: The Effects of Player Environment (9/6/2011 15:38:03)

I'd have to disagree.

If we had weekly updates (devs pleasing us), we would get spoiled. The only way to avoid that is irregular releases. I don't have do like it, neither do you, Pommie.



DunkThatOreo -> RE: The Effects of Player Environment (9/6/2011 15:46:12)

Hm while were at it lets tell titan to give us all 10k var every 3 weeks and give everyone a free achievement
at end of each week. Oh why not throw free weapons in there as well. Geez let titan and nightwraith do what they want.
They made the game. They have been developing the game. Stop telling them what to do.



DeathGuard -> RE: The Effects of Player Environment (9/6/2011 17:17:38)

Dunk: Well said, they got all the creativity and manage at ED, anyways they CREATED EpicDuel after all, not us.
Regarding the topic, once again I really don't like this kind of thread/speech, whatever you want to call it. Also pointing out ages is not as good, because not only 12 years old and more read this forums. We can't ask for more than we can, we can't not say them what to do with their game. We're just costumers and they're the managers, e.g we can't go to a store and say to a store manager how to manage it, we can give advice but no more than that. Also if you're pointing out the community and the Devs, you're included too I suppose, because I really don't care who you are or where do you come from, but what have you done to have the right to say us what to do? Or what excellent suggestions have you given to think you're above the logistic from other forumers/players. We all have different perception about this problem, but we can't do anything more than respect Devs and their work, we can't start spamming them asking for suggestion that don't even make sense. Players as people in real life are suffering gross relationships, discrimination, insults, envy and all the negative, it is a problem than can't be solved in a day/night. Also, expressing in different ways no matter if they're unappropiate, it shows the real nature amongs humans. Their is always something hidden in someone's feelings, and sometimes we can't find out what it is.
Also, why have you been giving permission again to post a thread like this? I really don't know, I did a more positive thread that was kind of a suggestion/idea in progress and it was deleted and they say to me to post in feature suggestions. I really think my thread about nonvariums getting treasure hunter and other peeks worths more than this. No offense intended though.

I will not like to receive a reply in the thread but a response in pm by you PD.



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