No more nerfs just buffs. (Full Version)

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doomturtle -> No more nerfs just buffs. (8/28/2012 3:22:13)

I am looking for the communities opinion on this topic.
Why not instead of nerfing the op class why not just make the weaker classes stronger. Then the game will be more fun because instead of having boring low powered classes every class will be way stronger than they are now. If the keep nerfing classes then eventually classes will be so weak that loop healing will happen again because the classes can't dish out enough damage.



Drianx -> RE: No more nerfs just buffs. (8/28/2012 3:44:55)

LOL.
Instead of being all weak, they will all be strong eh?

There was this episode of '2 stupid dogs'. They were trying to enter a drive-in cinema for free.
One jumped into the car trunk, the other was driving. Only the driver paid and went on.
The other one came out of the trunk and jumped for joy. But the driver started moaning he wants to enter for free too.
So they went out of the cinema again, the former driver went into the trunk and the other stayed behind the wheel.
They entered the cinema again, the new driver paid and the former driver went without paying.
So they were both happy now, because they both went in without paying.

The nonsense in your statement is that, as long as they will be balanced, it won't matter if they are as strong as the former strongest, or as weak as the former weakest. Because after the changes there will be no more weakest class to compare them with.

And of course if 5 are balanced and one overpowered, it is much easier to have one modified instead of 5. And 5 classes are much better as a reference for balance than only one.



Naruto Uzamaki -> RE: No more nerfs just buffs. (8/28/2012 4:48:00)

doomturtle i like ur idea



Nexus... -> RE: No more nerfs just buffs. (8/28/2012 4:52:41)

How about neither nerfs or buffs? I'd like to see the balance team actually go and try to fix the issue, as would many people in the community. The problem is, I don't think they have any idea what they are doing, although the latest balance update was quite reassuring (but that isn't saying much). Bottom line is that many people who have been around a long time have a pretty good idea of what needs to happen, and it doesn't include nerfing or buffing anything. This said, I doubt the staff has checked the balance thread for at least a couple of years now.


Here is an example:

Beginning of Delta:
[in order of popularity/power]
-Tactical Mercenary
-Bounty Hunter
-Tech Mage
-Mercenary
-Cyber Hunter
-Blood Mage

Last week:
-Blood Mage
-Cyber Hunter
-Bounty Hunter/Mercenary
-Tech Mage
-Tactical Mercenary


Some would say that we fixed all the issues with Blood Mage, Cyber Hunter, and Mercenary, but I would argue that in doing so we completely alienated the other classes. The only class that has remained almost entirely consistent (and this consistency goes as far back as early beta) is Bounty Hunter, a class I have never really seen be "weak".


Anyway, the system we have right now is caught in neverending loop that will never solve anything. No more nerfing, no more buffing; fix the underlying issue and then we will at least be making some progress.

Now its time for my post to get deleted, and for me to get my daily warning. I guess nobody is listening to me anymore anyway.

Peace,

Prophet





doomturtle -> RE: No more nerfs just buffs. (8/28/2012 5:01:51)

Nexus you make the best point here. But also if they are all balanced and never change wont people get bored of the same skill tree.



Blaze The Aion Ender -> RE: No more nerfs just buffs. (8/28/2012 5:47:48)

@Nexus
In what world is merc as good as BH?
merc is the second worst, only beaten by TLM.. But event then I'm not sure
In a 1v1, the TLM could easily heal loop the Merc, and unless the merc gets a lucky pyro fly, there is little they could do to win
I see it like this
1: Blood Mage
2: Cyber Hunter
3: Bounty Hunter
4: Tech Mage
5: Merc/Tac Merc
6: Merc/Tac Merc

Optopic:
I don't think they should stop nerfs, some things simply need to be nerfed, but this game needs a change, start be redoing classes
Not with entirely different skill sets, but change them enough to fix the str problem.
They need to add something that happens with too much strength, (less accurate), but it would be best if they could figure something out that isn't RGN.

nerfs should continue, because if they just kept buffing everything, the only build that worked on any class would be str, and every class skilltree would be very similar



doomturtle -> RE: No more nerfs just buffs. (8/28/2012 6:51:00)

I had a non varium merc build that was as good as most varium players no matter what class. Right now the classes are pretty equal. It just depend on your build. Because right now I'm tlm and I can beat blood mages most of the time.



kingpowerlord -> RE: No more nerfs just buffs. (8/28/2012 7:08:29)

devs read thread

devs buff all classes

person who starts first does 40 damage strike,

second person at bad disadvantage

all classes too strong so 1st turn advantage too much.

game ruins

me look, /facepalm



ND Mallet -> RE: No more nerfs just buffs. (8/28/2012 8:49:04)

^Pretty much all of that is why we nerf and not buff everything. Unless you want battles to depend entirely on who goes first(even though that isn't balance at all). You also have to consider altering one class takes awhile in balance testing, altering the other 5 to match them on a level with the other one would be ridiculously long and cause so many problems(because every balance release we seem to get someone screaming "OMG u keeled X class!!11!1!")



RabbleFroth -> RE: No more nerfs just buffs. (8/28/2012 16:47:02)

quote:

Bottom line is that many people who have been around a long time have a pretty good idea of what needs to happen, and it doesn't include nerfing or buffing anything

Balance changes always boil down to buffs and nerfs. Any change, regardless of its intention, always sways the balance of power one way or another unless it is mathematically identical (in which case, the change must not have been for balance reasons).

*Any* change to an item, a skill, a class, a stat, etc will always make something stronger or weaker. A new weapon can introduce a previously unviable strategy that becomes dominant, regardless of whether that item was designed to buff that strategy or not.

-------

To address the OP's suggestion, constant buffs without nerfs is an unsustainable idea. A simple example: Let's say that every week we find the most underpowered class in the game, and buff its damage by 1. Every week, there will ALWAYS be a class that is more underpowered than the rest. Eventually, every class will simply one-shot the other. Whoever goes first instantly wins. Hardly fun. Obviously this isn't a perfect example, but hopefully you get the point.

I understand, nerfs feel bad. It's FUN to feel strong, and nerfs make you feel less strong, so they're less fun. But for the health of the game they are absolutely necessary.



Unknown Menace -> RE: No more nerfs just buffs. (8/28/2012 17:01:43)

^
Yeah the last one was totally not fun.

What i don't understand is why does ED have these balance issues while plenty of other pvp games don't (well they do but you hardly even notice them)
This is what starts to pull me away from playing, one week you know your game and the next week it's all ruined.

This coming from someone who has a serious game addiction should make even the staff worry.



rej -> RE: No more nerfs just buffs. (8/28/2012 17:18:31)

quote:

The nonsense in your statement is that, as long as they will be balanced, it won't matter if they are as strong as the former strongest, or as weak as the former weakest. Because after the changes there will be no more weakest class to compare them with.


I can see a small shred of reasoning behind your post, but your logic is massively flawed by one thing: NPCs.
If you have ever tried fighting boss NPCs such as BigTuna, Nightwraith, or George Lowe as a non var player, then you know how hopeless and difficult it feels. They need every shred of advantage they can get to win. Repeated nerfing only makes things more difficult for them.

I 100% agree that buffing is a much better idea than nerfing, especially when the staff goes to all this trouble to nerf 3/6 of the classes when it would be just as easy to buff the remaining three.

That is all. The Dragon has spoken. [;)]



Naruto Uzamaki -> RE: No more nerfs just buffs. (8/28/2012 18:27:33)

just look what u did to cybers you made us even worst then before and techmages again there even worst then before and then merc there even worst then before and then tac merc there joke them self they are not good only class were was need on nerfs was bounty and blood mages the rest are joke.



Mother1 -> RE: No more nerfs just buffs. (8/28/2012 18:33:09)

Nartuo Most CH's have been overly relying on SC so much that if you remove it your build is dead. And this is like more then 50% of the CH community. It won't hurt you to invest points in your energy instead of trying to hold the points to tank up.

Also the classes don't suck, you just don't know how to make a decent build to work with. I have a CH alt, and I can still win more then 60% of the battles I play with this alt when I use it WITHOUT static charge. I have seen CH get around this buy investing more energy for the big moves they want to use, as well as base their builds around something else besides static. If you want to win you should do this instead of complaining about this nerf.



Naruto Uzamaki -> RE: No more nerfs just buffs. (8/28/2012 18:45:33)

sorry there mother1 i have been playing ed since december 2009 so i know most of class and i am skill player i know how to make good builts and i do get alot wins like more then 100 a day anyways static is are main skill like mages reroute its like putting cool downs on that and you got attack. so in all honestly you getting 60 percent in wins nothing to proud of it just shows static is very important skill is need to be and I Don't play with tank builts most of us CH.



RabbleFroth -> RE: No more nerfs just buffs. (8/28/2012 18:48:42)

quote:

one week you know your game and the next week it's all ruined

This is a massive exaggeration.

We've deliberately kept the changes under control as to not turn everything on its head every time we make a batch of changes. Balance of the game changes by simple nature of you guys being so adaptive and settling into new strategies very quickly. We also come out with new content on a weekly basis, which alone adds new strategies, strengths, and weaknesses.



Mother1 -> RE: No more nerfs just buffs. (8/28/2012 18:59:11)

^ I see however, I played against several CH, and they are telling me they are getting through this nerf just fine. This is because they adapted. Also while everyone wants to win, getting a why to high percentage of wins will bring the dreaded nerfs that you and everyone else hates. Why do you think they nerfed BM so many times? because they saw that they were dominating the other classes regradless of build.

As for you talking about static like that you just proved my point once again. Static is the one skill that CH over rely on. I mean I heard some CH complaining about the Pyro fly and wanting it's ability chance because it has a chance to take static. If that right there isn't over relying on a skill I don't know what is.

Also while TM and TLM have reroute we have to get the crap beaten out of us to get energy back while you get your back in an attack. Also Static wasn't all that well balanced before. I mean how fair is it for you to gain 15-16 (when the raw again was maxed as 29%) and 23-24 (when it was maxed out at 44%) when the attack would sometimes do only 3 damage? That isn't balanced at all in fact it was OP. It was because of that OPness that heal loops would happen.


In fact here is an Idea how about they do change it back to the way it was, but in exchange let make Reroute gain energy back based off of raw Damage instead of Actual? Would that make it better?



doomturtle -> RE: No more nerfs just buffs. (8/28/2012 19:15:46)

I think a good way to balance the classes would be to make static like 35% and make atom smasher and assimilate non block able so they are as good as emp.



Naruto Uzamaki -> RE: No more nerfs just buffs. (8/28/2012 19:22:03)

fine lets remove reroute off see how ur stats play out again in terms in raw damage u r gaining about 9 to 13 at most since now ur fighting alot of tank up class like tac mer and merc and mages once again static is main skill u really need it without it in you really suck and you have no idea what has nerfs done to this class since you just have alt which doesn't count as to knowing that class inside and out and only time you see cybers doing well are ones that have bunny aux and bunny guns.



Mother1 -> RE: No more nerfs just buffs. (8/28/2012 19:24:11)

^ Doomturtle with static do you mean 35% based on raw damage or actual Damage?

If it is based on raw then it would be overpowered again, and heal loops would come back again as well as some CH going back to using default energy due to the OP of Static charge once again.

If you mean based on actual damage while it would help some, it still wouldn't be useful against tank players, those who can buff the defense your primary weapon uses and/or both.

Also if Atom Smasher and Assimilate were unblockable EMP still would be more powerful then both of these. Remember assimilate has fixed Damage, and Atom smasher doesn't improve with anything while EMP improves with tech. Plus don't forget that EMP is far higher up on the tiers then the other moves are which is also unfair as well.

Rabblefroth if you read this please move EMP down to the bottom tier for both CH and BH's it is only fair since every other class has to wait until level 10 to use them while these two can use them at level 2. Plus EMP are unblockable while the other moves are.

Naruto I have played with every single class with my main, and also the build I am using for my class unlike CH's doesn't rely on one skill to use the rest. It relys on several skills, and even if one of them is taken away it is flexible enough to still fight without problem

The problem with CH's is that they most of their build rely on move (AKA static) to work the rest of the moves. Plus most CH are unwilling to invest any points into energy because of static. You know this and I know this. Even though I use reroute I also invested enough points in my build to where I can use several combinations of moves with my energy, and then there are moves I use that don't rely on energy. Even as a CH I did this as well with my build and only used static when I needed a move, or when I needed a small amount of energy.

Also if reroute worked the same way static did I would be getting the same amount of energy every turn even if they only did three damage to me. That is OP just like static was. If I was gaining that much every turn even though I don't need that much energy others who have invested over 100+ energy would abuse it and then TM would get a nerf because of it.

The point I am trying to make is that CH need to make their build work with several moves and skills so that when you one is weakened they can adapt, What you are talking about that Static is a must have move is just proving my point that you over rely on one skill to work the rest. To counter this invest more points into energy. 10-15 stat points won't hurt mess with you build too much which is what most CH refuse to do which is the reason why most are complaining about putting static the way it was.



King Helios -> RE: No more nerfs just buffs. (8/28/2012 19:26:12)

TacMerc: Atom ---> Adrenaline.



veneeria -> RE: No more nerfs just buffs. (8/28/2012 20:22:00)

After reading everything, i came to realization that defense style game play is weaker than offensive. This is a wormhole in the ever changing balance.
Basically resuming, power > protection.

Buffing as a way to prevent OP classes, seams to be an incorrect way of balancing because there is the danger of in first turn the player dealing the vital most important strike that will make him the winner.

Honestly, you could just add downsides to skills or extreme stats. It is more effective and makes sense in my head at least, for example:

Having too much Str (str at a certain point), should make deflections and blocks alike more capable of being blocked and deflected.

Still, i deeply disagree that this the only game with balance issues, even in AE community, the games have those.



rej -> RE: No more nerfs just buffs. (8/28/2012 20:37:10)

quote:

I think a good way to balance the classes would be to make static like 35% and make atom smasher and assimilate non block able so they are as good as emp.


Or 40-50%. 30% of 30 damage is too pitiful to even mention.



Mother1 -> RE: No more nerfs just buffs. (8/28/2012 20:47:39)

^ 30 percent of 30 is actually 60% of what you would get from the old static charge which was 15. How is 9 energy so pitiful? Tech mages assimalate doesn't even get that back at max. Also with the way things are now if they don't change it back (Which I doubt they will) Save it for a rage attack instead of relying on it every time it pops up or when you got their defenses weakened or both.

Remember with static this way, while the chances are low (which is why most people want static back the way it was since it was granteed to give x amount of energy) you can gain more they you would if you crit with this especially a rage crit since it is based off actual damage instead of raw damage.



shadesofblue -> RE: No more nerfs just buffs. (8/28/2012 20:56:46)

I really don't post much about balance anymore, but really, there's no way for CH's to regain more energy than before the nerf. If I regain 7 energy from Static the whole battle, I consider myself very lucky.



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