RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (Full Version)

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RageSoul -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/27/2012 10:13:41)

Sorry for the delay , but here goes ..

To Wootz
quote:

You crazy dude. So we can have like a huge damage dealer along side with a great passive Energy regain. Good work!

IDK about you , but all i can see is that 1) Merc was supposed to be a good offensive class in the first place ( that explains why they have HA instead of shields due to FM / BM being an offensive buff ) and 2) many people always keep saying Caster TM is the most OPed one only because of "high PB damage , it can make anyone's HP go 60% or less" and SC doing much damage and stuff that what makes them great yet their not even mentioning the cons too . And besides , Merc has been UPed for more than a year . Imagine if that lasts for 2 or more years!
quote:

Wouldn't that make Bounty Hunters more powerfull? Resulting in massive OPness? You sound like Hun.

Am i ? Then again , i couldn't tell if you haven't read this :
quote:

either one or 2 of these buffs , not all.

Or .... maybe i couldn't understand properly because you didn't gave an explanation . If you have time , i would love to know why since all i see are STR and 5 - Focus, not much news about SUPP or other builds .

Thank you in advanced .



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/27/2012 12:29:05)

quote:

IDK about you , but all i can see is that 1) Merc was supposed to be a good offensive class in the first place ( that explains why they have HA instead of shields due to FM / BM being an offensive buff ) and 2) many people always keep saying Caster TM is the most OPed one only because of "high PB damage , it can make anyone's HP go 60% or less" and SC doing much damage and stuff that what makes them great yet their not even mentioning the cons too . And besides , Merc has been UPed for more than a year . Imagine if that lasts for 2 or more years!

1) It is a good offensive class. (better then Blood Mages)
2) Nah, it isn't really. It can be easily countered, Max Massacre and Strenght Tank (both Hunter builds) destroys it. Super Charge isn't really that powerfull. A level 5 Massacre with decent Strenght can easily make a higher damage output then a Max Super Charge.
Also, the class isn't that underpowered, it is overrated. A decent Mercenary Strenght build completly destroys everyone. Here's the part of the stat sheet of a Merc build I made for my friend:
Primary/Side: 21-26+ 35 (27-33 +35 with Blood Commander)
Aux: don't care
Defense: 26-32 +5 +6 +1
Resistance: 25-30 +5 +5 +1

Now you tell me that that isn't a great build? You get a Health regen because of Blood Commander and the Energy (which is 71, incase you wondered) provides many options for skill usage (strategy).

quote:

Or .... maybe i couldn't understand properly because you didn't gave an explanation . If you have time , i would love to know why since all i see are STR and 5 - Focus, not much news about SUPP or other builds .

Support builds work great, especially Tech Mage & Cyber Hunter (yes, they are here. God damnit!), I don't understand why everyone goes defensive with those builds, Battle Elf and I went all out offensive with it and was more devastating then the defensive one. Technology isn't as usefull, although a Tech Bounty Hunter is pretty awesome, I was a Tech Bounty Hunter last week, had some pretty awesome fights! Also, that Smoke Screen on level 3 is totaly OP'd.
Strenght builds are fast, some people, like me love fast builds. Although I was even faster as a Sup Cyber Hunter back then. It's a common used thing, people see it work and they use it. "I saw a rather interesting 139 Health that Gassia had, I could try it aswell", and holy crap it actually works better then expected (incase you're wondering, I never did that builds, although it killed me...).
5 Focus, I don't like those stats, having 16-20 Primary, Side arm and Auxiliary damage is great with good defenses, it gives somewhat offense and defense. It's like a survival build, it lasts long and people who don't mind having long battles use it I guess. I absolutly hate having to battle 5 Focus Tactical Mercenaries that always has to last freaking long as hell, but I defeat them with more then half Health left. 5 Focus Cyber Hunter's better 'cause it has better offenses. It's just that people aren't smart enough to figure that adding Massacre at level 1 with a few points extra into Energy would greatly benefit. I don't get Cyber Hunters with a 5 Focus build. Kinda lousy in my opinion.

You're welcome, not much of an explanation, but it's not that bad.




Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/27/2012 21:37:13)

I know they just came out, but the boomsticks weapons need a nerf. They work with strength builds, and even at 85% damage to two people they are OP especially those with blood lust. They are basically a multi that is based off of strength. I can see str BM and Str BH becoming extremely OP with these weapons.



zippinbolts -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/27/2012 21:47:25)

As in they are not already Mother1? Sigh, I'll crawl back to my merc and cry at the unbalance.



Nub Apocalypse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/27/2012 22:05:44)

Fun fact: A mage with lvl 8 deadly aim and 93 str (21-26 dmg) with the boomstick does the same damage as a max plasma rain from a mage with 136 dex (36-44 def), BUT with 40 less energy required :DDD
I was thinking the boomsticks would have around 60% dmg, and I could only have stretched my predictions up to the point of 65%, for an extra 30% dmg for no energy required would have already been a godsend. But as soon as the number 85 popped up on my computer screen in the morning, I already knew it wasn't anything to do with the "testing" (if it really actually was even tested). EpicDuel must have a tight money pocket right now, after 3 promos in 3 months and the overused OP then nerf tactic, which has been used on lets see; Infernal Interdictor, Infernal Android and the soon to be boomsticks.



RageSoul -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/28/2012 5:33:07)

quote:

Support builds work great, especially Tech Mage & Cyber Hunter (yes, they are here. God damnit!), I don't understand why everyone goes defensive with those builds, Battle Elf and I went all out offensive with it and was more devastating then the defensive one. Technology isn't as usefull, although a Tech Bounty Hunter is pretty awesome, I was a Tech Bounty Hunter last week, had some pretty awesome fights! Also, that Smoke Screen on level 3 is totaly OP'd.
Strenght builds are fast, some people, like me love fast builds. Although I was even faster as a Sup Cyber Hunter back then. It's a common used thing, people see it work and they use it. "I saw a rather interesting 139 Health that Gassia had, I could try it aswell", and holy crap it actually works better then expected (incase you're wondering, I never did that builds, although it killed me...).
5 Focus, I don't like those stats, having 16-20 Primary, Side arm and Auxiliary damage is great with good defenses, it gives somewhat offense and defense. It's like a survival build, it lasts long and people who don't mind having long battles use it I guess. I absolutly hate having to battle 5 Focus Tactical Mercenaries that always has to last freaking long as hell, but I defeat them with more then half Health left. 5 Focus Cyber Hunter's better 'cause it has better offenses. It's just that people aren't smart enough to figure that adding Massacre at level 1 with a few points extra into Energy would greatly benefit. I don't get Cyber Hunters with a 5 Focus build. Kinda lousy in my opinion.

I was referring to SUPP BH being the UPed one , but the rest , yeah , the other classes' SUPP builds can be successful , but what about the non-Varium perspective ?

quote:

Also, the class isn't that underpowered, it is overrated. A decent Mercenary Strenght build completly destroys everyone. Here's the part of the stat sheet of a Merc build I made for my friend:
Primary/Side: 21-26+ 35 (27-33 +35 with Blood Commander)
Aux: don't care
Defense: 26-32 +5 +6 +1
Resistance: 25-30 +5 +5 +1

Now you tell me that that isn't a great build? You get a Health regen because of Blood Commander and the Energy (which is 71, incase you wondered) provides many options for skill usage (strategy).

I know they have strong and decent STR build combos but the rest of the builds are actually pretty much of a history, but then again ....
quote:

but what about the non-Varium perspective ?



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/28/2012 8:09:24)

quote:

I know they have strong and decent STR build combos but the rest of the builds are actually pretty much of a history, but then again ....




quote:

rest of the builds are actually pretty much of a history




Here's my build. I also have a quite sucessful win rate.


CLICKY

@below


I ninja'd wootz! :D



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/28/2012 8:09:51)

quote:

I was referring to SUPP BH being the UPed one , but the rest , yeah , the other classes' SUPP builds can be successful , but what about the non-Varium perspective ?

Support Bounty Hunter isn't underpowered. In Varium perspective yeah, but in a F2P perspective hardly, I was one before I bought Varium first. The reign of Tactical Mercenaries destroyed it. Support Bounty Hunter is quite good actually. Mix it with some creativity and you got yourself a great build.

quote:

I know they have strong and decent STR build combos but the rest of the builds are actually pretty much of a history, but then again ....

But then again no one is trying. By not giving it a shot and just providing informations about it without backing them up just shows how no one really knows how the actual state of it is.

F2P Mercenaries, not sure quite. They could be pretty decent if using right equipment, I'm sure it would. It won't be easy, but atleast it's something eh? I'd love to try, but I don't have a level cap F2P Mercenary to try it.



Blaze The Aion Ender -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/28/2012 9:57:20)

Don't nerf the gun
It'll become useless in 2v2 and jugg, then I will need a better gun for those...
In 2v2, I have done a best of 20 damage...



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/28/2012 10:14:49)

@Amber
God damnit! xD Why nerf the guns? They aren't OP.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/28/2012 10:24:09)

They are OP with strength builds especially with those who have the passives blood lust, deadly aim or both. Even at 85% damage they are attacking two people, and this will give even more health back with blood lust. and with Deadly aim powering the gun up it will be a nightmare.

it is this kind of weapon that would make Str BM a problem once again. They went through the trouble of nerfing fireball to make them less threatening and then boom they put the boomstick into the game and have it promote strength just like the new armor big mistake on their part.

I am using the gun, and even though I am a tech mage I still have malf and deadly aim a combo that I have been using for a while, and even with it doing 85% damage I am still getting close to what I would normally get if I was to attack with one person when I malf them.



RageSoul -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/28/2012 10:30:03)

@Raynie
Wow ... i can actually imagine myself getting pwned by that , but anyways , i'm still not 100% convinced that it's not UPed .



Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/28/2012 12:30:01)

@ Mother1 - Bloodlust doesn't give health back based on damage done to two targets, it only gives health back based on the damage done to the player who is before you in the turn cycle. So actually the health regain is less due to 85% damage and in the case of BM the split hybrid.

Rage build works the same as it is not calculated on the damage not done to two targets, just the one player who is before you in turn cycle.

Just a clarification, carry on....



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/28/2012 12:38:52)

So how they are overpowered if Bloodlust doesn't regen 170% weapon damage? It regains 85% minus the opponents defense/resistance.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/28/2012 12:50:59)

It isn't just bloodlust I was talking about. I also mention about those who have deadly aim as well as it being used in strength builds. A combo that A Str BM can abused very easily or even a strength TM. The guns stats alone make them the target for Str builds, and even if the damage is only 85% for 2 targets that can be very devastating for those two targets with if a strength build uses it.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/28/2012 13:23:51)

I spoke with Rabble about how the Gun works since people claim it's OP whilst some think it's balanced.

quote:

<~RabbleFroth> the crossover point is 70% of the damage coming in
<~RabbleFroth> meaning that if the second person's defense is greater than 70% of the original gun damage, the attack does less overall
<Trans> Hmm, quite complex but kinda makes sense. The crossover point is complicated since it works on 2nd person. So let's say Gun deals 55-59 damage (+35 & 20-24) and enemy's defence is 30 and other one's is 25. How does it work there? (example usually explains it best)
<~RabbleFroth> so if you were going to shoot enemy A (30 def) with a regular gun it would do about 27 damage (57-30)
<~RabbleFroth> shooting both does 57*0.85 = 48 to each, so 18 (48-30) and 22 (48-25) for a total of 40
<~RabbleFroth> it did way more because the second person has less than 70% of the gun's normal damage (25 / 57 = 44%)
<~RabbleFroth> but if enemy B had 40 defense (70% of 57 damage), it would do a total of 26 damage, 18 to enemy A + 8 to enemy B (the number is off because I'm rounding, but it's essentially the same damage as you would have done with a normal gun to one enemy)


I used quite unusual numbers for defences (25 and 30) since it's usually what BMs have - near 25 that is - with Str builds whilst normal'er builds have at least 30+ with Armor included. So pretty much, there is a expected Res/Def you should have at a Level that keeps Gun balanced. It'll be less effective on Tanks (or equal, you can try to do examples) and more effective on players such as BMs due to very low Def/Res.



RabbleFroth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/28/2012 13:29:56)

Some quick mathcrafting on the Spreadfire ability.

Two scenarios:
Scenario A - I shoot enemy 1 with a non-Spreadfire gun.
Scenario B - I shoot both enemies (enemy 1 and enemy 2) with a Spreadfire gun.

I will do more damage in Scenario B if enemy 2 (the one I would not have shot otherwise) has defense that is less than 70% of how much damage the gun does (including everything: base damage, Str bonus, Deadly Aim bonus).
So let's say my damage is 100. If Enemy 2's defense is 70, I will do the same amount of damage in both scenarios. If his defense is less than 70, I do more damage. If his defense is greater than 70, I do less damage.

The question when discussing the gun's balance then becomes: Is it too hard to have Defense that is equal to 70% of their gun damage? If that's too hard, then the gun might be too strong. If that's easy, then the gun is either in a good place or might be too weak.

EDIT: Argh you're too fast Trans!



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/28/2012 13:49:35)

On another development with the boomsticks, I was doing a two vs two with a merc as a partner and he gave me a max blood commander. Now unless I am wrong Blood commander at max gives you back 15% of whatever damage is done back as health and when I used the boomstick on two targets I gained by 12 health and the most damage I did to out of the two was 43 while the other was 38. So unless I am mistaken with the amount of HP gain you gain with blood commander at it's max level 15% of 43 isn't 12. However if add the other amount of damage that was done to the other person in and combine the two numbers with 81 damage and the blood commander at max gives me 15% of the damage back it would add up to add round around the number of 12 if you are going for the nearest whole number.

So unless blood commander works differently then bloodlust (which I am sure they work the same) then as I stated before the HP gain from strength builds using Bloodlust and deadly aim, blood commander and deadly aim, or even a str build in general with Blood commander will be crazy.



kosmo -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/28/2012 18:36:29)

What about armor?As a nonvar strenght-support bh i feel very disappointed when my 1st turn becomes totally useless,when ppl(expecially other bh) survives to massacre then steal my rage and hits hard my low defences.....and i die.....
skill shuldnt affect full rage
i cannot use massacre on my rage turn...

I've merged your posts. In the future, please do not double post, as it's viewed as spam and clutters the page - instead, you can use the edit feature to add any additional information into your post. For more information, please read the =AE= Comprehensive Forum Rules > Posting Behavior. ~eVentus



The Astral Fury -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/28/2012 19:02:12)

I don't think the gunis TOO bad but I admit it can be pretty unfair damage wise and multiple targets wise.



shadesofblue -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/28/2012 21:07:41)

quote:

Is it too hard to have Defense that is equal to 70% of their gun damage?

Unfortunately, the majority of the builds that this gun will be used in will probably be STR oriented, so the answer to this question may very well be yes. I think you guys (the Devs)should've made the new weps Auxes instead of Guns; STR doesn't really need promoting right now and SUPP still hasn't received that promised buff.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/28/2012 21:14:35)

@Shadeofblue I only have 67 strength with my build and I am using the weapon. I just sync it with malf in two vs two Also even though strength is the highest stat (which I am still disappointed about) support comes a a chose 2nd with 5. But yeah it would have been better if they used this ability with an aux that has Support as the top stat instead of a gun with strength.



Luna_moonraider -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/28/2012 23:25:26)

@shadesofblue

they did not make the ability for auxes because merc and tlm multi improves with support 2 multis in a 2v2 and they both improve with support kinda of too oped imho.

back to topic

well i have not seen spreadfire first hand cause i have not played in a few days but by the looks/explanation of it i would say spreadfire is oped with str builds in 2v2. idk what the devs are doing but oh well a multi for str build wow just gr8. str builds "really" needs a buff. gr8 job devs



Bunshichi -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/29/2012 0:16:59)

Well I've yet to see mass amounts of str builds.



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/29/2012 0:38:50)

Same here, same here. Haven't seen any.



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