RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (Full Version)

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Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/7/2012 11:11:56)

Lord Aegis I started playing this game as Tech mage with my first character and still feel that TM need a nerf! When I first started playing this game Plasma bolt was at 33 energy to use at max, and Plasma rain was still with Tech. However, because of CASTER tech mages abusing Plasma bolt, and Plasma rain while spamming tech they nerfed the class and changed Plasma rain to dex to put an end to the abuse. However the buff they gave to the Plasma bolt is OP and now Caster TM are back, and destroying the masses once again especially at the lower levels.

As for being able to do 60-80 damage in the first too turns that is way too overpowered. That is the same thing the Str BM used to do to the masses with their attacks, and guess what they got a nerf because of it. Also Unless the attacks are level differently such PB level 9 Superchage level 3 or somewhere to that nature a regular move isn't suppose to be more powerful then an ultimate move! But thanks to the buff the rabble gave to plasma bolt a while ago it is an because of of this it is OP.

Also while I can agree that TM at lower levels were UP that is still no excuse to have them be able to 2 hit people and force other players to use a certain build that they don't like to be able to compete. That would be the whole infernal android thing all over again since we now have TM 2 hitting users with malf and Plasma bolt in 1 vs 1. It it isn't fair in the least or if you think it is fair let's reverse the nerfs done to BM by giving them back their berzerker move instead of bludgeon and making fireball increase with 3 instead of 4 like it is now. Then you will once again see that it isn't fun to get 2 ko'ed by another class.

Ok on the buff the TM got to the Plasma bolt this was made back when BM were extremely OP, not when they BM's got their nerf. In fact TM and BH weren't even messed around with when BM's got their last nerf. So as of now the PB is far greater then the FB. Also for Mercs the only most can compete is if they use the Bunker blaster build especially with Caster mages since most of them have tank like resistance at lower levels due to overpowering their tech while having low defense. It is now the only way a Merc can even compete with these caster TM at lower levels. It is like saying 'use this build or die!' which isn't correct at all.

So please for the love of the game nerf PB to a more reasonable level of power if anything make it on par with the new FB that BM have, because if the original buff that TM got was to make the Plasma bolt on par with the old fire ball, then the balance has tipped and now the abuse has switched from BM to TM.



shadesofblue -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/7/2012 21:09:41)

I suggest we just wait until TM's hit the nerfing table. IMO, who really cares if they hit the wrong skill? (Which I almost guarantee they will)



King Helios -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/7/2012 21:11:17)

They need to nerf Plasma Bolt (+4 ep at max)0, and raise scaling.



Rayman -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/7/2012 22:12:45)

^
Yup, With focus tm I need boost to win a Good Caster TM.



AQWPlayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 11:39:56)

Remove enhancements and boosters. Problem solved.



Mecha Mario -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 13:24:12)

Have deleted a couple posts due to breaking the following rule:
quote:

  • No "Financial" Discussions
    Artix Entertainment appreciates every player, no matter how much he or she has spent on the game. Demeaning players because they have not upgraded, or vice versa, will not be permitted in any form. Since such discussions tend to devolve into flaming, we will no longer permit users to create threads about any sort of financial status. That means no Varium vs Non-Varium threads, no Free Player vs Paying Player threads, no threads about the unfairness of Varium prices, and so on. Anything related to finances will not be allowed. If you are unsure if the topic would be acceptable or not, ask the head moderator for permission before creating it.

    • Taken from =ED= EpicDuel Discussion Forum Rules.

    This thread is to discuss about balance, not finances. Lets keep it that way and get back on topic.

    Edit: Deleted more posts that was related to this notice afterwards. Warnings has been sent out.



    The Astral Fury -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 14:23:41)

    For BM replace energy shield with smoke screen and have it improve with strength this way BM can use their strength build to their advantage to make up for that nerf they did also this would make it a little more balanced so BM`s cant just spam energy shield and have the enemy`s who use energy do no damage.



    Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 14:24:23)

    ^ Caster mages are now coming back and they are once again starting to overpower the masses. I am a TM myself but I don't use a caster build, and I see myself and many other players at the mercy of these casters. It was the main reason why they changed plasma rain to dex instead of tech, but they never should have buffed the plasma bolt and reduce it's energy cost at max.

    for someone to be able to do 60-80 without crits as Lord aegis said that is why overpowered, and if my gut is correct like shadeinblue stated when TM get nerfed I have a gut feeling they will nerf something else along with the plasma bolt since sadly the last couple of nerfs have hit skills no one complained about.

    As for the enhancements being removed to bring back balance while it will help bring down the op'ness of some builds it will not bring complete balance. With the weapons the way they are now and all of them having different Str, dex, tech, and support numbers all players would have to do is just get the weapons that best support their build, and just add extra points to whatever stats they need and boom it will be the same thing all over again but at a lower scale.

    Also giving BM smokescreen? No 1000 times no. This would really upset balance as it would make strength build OP once again. I could see it now. Using smokescreen to remove a large amount of dex, then using Deadly aim, fireball, and bludgeon. Not a combo I am found of with a blood mage.



    The Astral Fury -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 14:27:54)

    Okay was does CH get a debuff and an armour it`s pretty stupid BM need a debuff and mineral armour and TM needs smoke screen back stop nerfing the classes devs you really don`t get it after all this time just buff the other classes, don`t make the other ones weak and give the lame excuse ``There all balanced no need to worry``.



    Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 14:31:55)

    ^ If they keep on buffing classes then duels would become shorter and less fun. Also this will really hurt the mid levels as well as non variums player who go against varium players. I already said what was happening to mid level mercs due to the plasma bolt buff some time ago. Also for those who think just use bunker blaster on them, this works ok if the merc goes first. If they go second and are hit with the malf then this attack is weakened by X amount plus they are more vulnerable to plasma bolt or any other energy attacks. While nerfs are not wanted they are needed to keep the game more fun and balanced.



    Bunshichi -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 14:33:05)

    ^ I could tell that before ch's got their nef that this was going to be next.

    Faced a lvl 30 mage in juggs 3 times only won 1 out of the four. Max malfed me everytime hit me with a lvl 6 plasma that does 67 energy dmg. Then around round 8 he'd tech himself and have 33-40 and rages with android doing 27-27.....



    Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 14:39:51)

    ^ When they originally buffed the plasma bolt they did it so mages at lower levels could compete. However, now they are filling the spot the Str BM used to fill. I am also seeing more and more caster TM with high energy and health. While I can compete with these casters if I play smart, it is a lot harder since Assimulation is the weakest of all energy draining skills, it can be blocked, and since just about all casters have reroute and it does actual damage unlike EMP and Atom smasher you will be giving them back energy even though you are taking some away sometimes more then enough to give them the energy for the OP plasma bolt.

    Pretty soon I can see more then half the community becoming caster TM so they can either compete/win just like it was with str BM a little while back.



    Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 14:47:08)

    Just wondering, is there a minimum amount that someone must gain back from SC? Or is it minimum just minimum of 1 EP? (Like, no matter what you hit, you'll always get at least 3 EP back or something?)



    King Helios -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 14:57:51)

    Test it with Basic Blades on Dravax.



    Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 15:00:36)

    It is whatever percent of actual damage you do to an opponent based on static's level.



    shadesofblue -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 16:07:37)

    IMO, we should stop talking about balance, and just wait for the staff to do their thing and nerf TM's. I predict: Reroute will get hit, maybe? Don't like the nerf? Get more energy xD I mean, it's not as if 150 energy's a lot, right? It'll be a blow to TLM's too, but really, they're actually pretty good right now, especially with CH and BM gone.

    Oh, and maybe give PB a SUPP requirement; seems fair.



    Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 16:47:13)

    Everyone complaining about the tech mage abusing tech but what about the merc, what about the tact merc, what about the Cyber Hunter, what about the Bounty Hunter, all 4 have a passive armor except one, all 4 abuse tech for bots, 2 abuse tech for EMP, 1 abuse tech for Bunker Buster which is now twice as strong as Plasma Cannon, thank you staff!

    So here we go again calling for a nerf that is not needed because that is how all of you think you will get balance. Look what you did with the Blood Mage class, you called for one nerf and they got two destroying that class, just look at the leader boards now, be proud of the destruction you cause.

    The balance issues are within the stats but you can't see it and will never see but rather nerf a class too death.

    Look at the strike skills even regular strike, how many time do you block?



    Bunshichi -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 16:55:44)

    ^Many of us are talking about plasma bolt.....plasma gets you hp back unlike bunker so you'd want plasma cannon to put out more dmg and get your more hp.



    Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 17:44:33)

    had to adjust my 5 focus BloodMage but I'm still getting reliable wins unless luck interfears



    NDB -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 18:42:30)

    Right now I'm hearing a lot about TMs being overpowered, especially PB. I think they should also change Deadly Aim. It makes non-strength abusing builds very overpowered. For example, a focus-support TM (once they change PB, they will obviously be the dominant build) will Malf (powered by support), Gun (powered by Deadly Aim), Aux (powered with support), and then Robot (usually Gamma, which is unblockable). Basically, they have 3 unblockable, very powered up attacks that aren't even going to get deflected because that high Malf. I'm not saying it's going to be overpowered, but it's something to look out for. BM's also abuse Deadly Aim, and it really is just unrealisitic to get a +4 just from level 1. Also, after the passive shields were made worse, the other passives got better in comparison, including Deadly Aim. Now, you have +10 damage at level 8, and +8 Defenses at level 8 for Shileds (+9 for Hybrid), which just doesn't make sense. Back in the old days, you needed MAX DM for +9, yet shields were +13 at MAX. Fact is, Deadly Aim gets better every level because of the gun +, when passive shields never do. Now that guns are +35, its just too good.
    This is how I think Deadly Aim should work:
    Level 1: 3% (+2 for a +35 gun)
    Level 2: 5% (+3 for a +35 gun)
    Level 3: 7% (+3 for a +35 gun)
    Level 4: 9% (+4 for a +35 gun)
    Level 5: 11% (+4 for a +35 gun)
    Level 6: 13% (+5 for a +35 gun)
    Level 7: 15% (+6 for a +35 gun)
    Level 8: 17% (+6 for a +35 gun)
    Level 9: 19% (+7 for a +35 gun)
    Level 10: 21% (+8 for a +35 gun)
    Stat required: 15 support, +3 per level
    Now, at level 8, it is only +6 instead of 10, although at MAX it's still +8. As not to ruin strength builds, the requirement is now 15 instead of 24, but you need 3 more support every time. If normally, if a strength build had 30 support, with level 4 DM, it would be +7, but now they can get level 6, which is +5.



    Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 19:29:43)

    quote:

    Bunker Buster which is now twice as strong as Plasma Cannon

    4 damage is twice as much? Twice as much = DOUBLE the WHOLE value not 4. <_<



    Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 19:55:41)

    NDB Most caster mages don't even use deadly aim, and if Deadly aim were to be nerfed, it would be like Shadeofblue said hitting a skill no one is really complaining about. Plus this would only serve to help casters even more since they don't use this at all, while the Non caster mages who use this as well as BM will be taking the hit.

    Besides even if you did hit this Support mages would still be powerful as they will still have highly power malf, the OP plasma bolt, the powerful aux, and the nerfed but still deadly deadly aim. Plus Blood mages took not one but two strong nerfs. By nerfing Deadly aim you will be hitting them with yet another nerf which seems to be the one problem with nerfs. If the skill is shared by other classes it will also affect that class as well.

    However if they just nerf Plasma bolt to the same scale as Fireball is, it would not only just effect TM, but take the sting out of the caster mages that are now coming back, especially as it was said before that Plasma bolt is now more powerful then supercharge and they both work with Tech. No move that powers up with the same stat should be more powerful then an ultimate move. Bunker isn't more powerful the surgical strike under normal circumstances, Plasma cannon isn't stronger then supercharge under normal circumstances (this is for BM) But for some reason Plasma bolt if more powerful then an ultimate move and unlike supercharge you can rage with it.



    RageSoul -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 21:17:51)

    Mother1 ,
    From your statement...
    quote:

    Lord Aegis I started playing this game as Tech mage with my first character and still feel that TM need a nerf! When I first started playing this game Plasma bolt was at 33 energy to use at max, and Plasma rain was still with Tech. However, because of CASTER tech mages abusing Plasma bolt, and Plasma rain while spamming tech they nerfed the class and changed Plasma rain to dex to put an end to the abuse. However the buff they gave to the Plasma bolt is OP and now Caster TM are back, and destroying the masses once again especially at the lower levels.

    As for being able to do 60-80 damage in the first too turns that is way too overpowered. That is the same thing the Str BM used to do to the masses with their attacks, and guess what they got a nerf because of it. Also Unless the attacks are level differently such PB level 9 Superchage level 3 or somewhere to that nature a regular move isn't suppose to be more powerful then an ultimate move! But thanks to the buff the rabble gave to plasma bolt a while ago it is an because of of this it is OP.

    Also while I can agree that TM at lower levels were UP that is still no excuse to have them be able to 2 hit people and force other players to use a certain build that they don't like to be able to compete. That would be the whole infernal android thing all over again since we now have TM 2 hitting users with malf and Plasma bolt in 1 vs 1. It it isn't fair in the least or if you think it is fair let's reverse the nerfs done to BM by giving them back their berzerker move instead of bludgeon and making fireball increase with 3 instead of 4 like it is now. Then you will once again see that it isn't fun to get 2 ko'ed by another class.

    Ok on the buff the TM got to the Plasma bolt this was made back when BM were extremely OP, not when they BM's got their nerf. In fact TM and BH weren't even messed around with when BM's got their last nerf. So as of now the PB is far greater then the FB. Also for Mercs the only most can compete is if they use the Bunker blaster build especially with Caster mages since most of them have tank like resistance at lower levels due to overpowering their tech while having low defense. It is now the only way a Merc can even compete with these caster TM at lower levels. It is like saying 'use this build or die!' which isn't correct at all.

    So please for the love of the game nerf PB to a more reasonable level of power if anything make it on par with the new FB that BM have, because if the original buff that TM got was to make the Plasma bolt on par with the old fire ball, then the balance has tipped and now the abuse has switched from BM to TM.


    1) Um , how much EP does a low-level require to do that combo ( PB + SC ) perfectly anyway? Lemme see :
    29 EP + 38 EP = 64 EP
    But OFC , they won't survive until Round 4 if it's either BH/Merc went first . In fact , they ( BH and Merc ) can always heal while attack and beat it.

    2) See? That's what i said , we were fixed already .

    3) How is TM's PB + SC against a BM with 140+ HP greater than a BM's Gun + Bludgeon + FB/Strike/ES ( probably that can give him +23 RES ) rinse and repeat combo? We have to wait 'til Round 4 to use SC , while they are just spamming the same buttons more often . And besides , who happens to have a higher SUPP ? OFC , you already know the answer .

    4) I guess you didn't noticed this :

    quote:

    i mean look at its skills : PB , PR , Technician , Malfunction . Yep , Malf for great synergy + paired up with a strong PB/PR , and "BAM!" goes at your opponent .

    And that's also the reason why they have "Mage" in their name. It's all about creativity .



    shadesofblue -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 22:08:38)

    Ok, this caster TM thing has taken a whole new level. It's one thing if Varium Caster TM's have 100% win ratios on me (Which honestly isn't that surprising), but it's another thing if non-varium players with no enhancements are getting 65-70% on me, a full varium CH. In fact, I just faced one, and he brought me down to 8 HP before I barely killed him (If I had done 2 less damage I would've been a goner) with my bazooka.



    Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 22:33:18)

    lord aegis It was more like this before the Developers changed plasma rain from tech to dex. Spam a lot of tech and dex for protecting while leaving str and support at the bare min or just high enough to use the weapons they equipped, and then caster mages would do the following... Plasma bolt, plasma rain, gun/aux/ Plasma bolt, plasma rain and repeat unless low on heal then used heal. How is that creative in any scene? answer it wasn't and it still isn't creative and it is just as spammy as gun, fireball, bludgeon, gun however unlike TM BM doesn't have reroute to repeat this process, but rely on strength and like Tech mages Blood mages also have mage in their name.

    Now let get back on to caster mages that are current. The higher level mages I fight with my main don't even use malfunction. In fact most caster mages do the same patterns unless something comes along an throws them off balance such as you landing a crit on them. Oh and once that second plasma bolt comes along it is murder she wrote since 9/10 it is rage charged and it's 40-50 on that turn which as I said is sometimes more then supercharge (which should still never happen.)

    Plus let not forget when a class wins too much and the masses start complaining there the class that is winning too much if the staff sees this the class will get nerfed. So while it is nice to win your duels against other players winning too much will cause nerfs if everyone using this class is doing this. It happened to BM, and CH and as many could see the nerfs hit a lot harder then most even wanted. The last couple of changes I can bring up are proof of this.

    Example: People complained about the infernal android being overpowered (which is was because it was a mistake on the admins) however what happened when they noticed Backlash happened and all the bots got checked out. As a result of this the bots people used the most got nerfed along with the infernal android.

    Next example: People complained for the longest about CH's heal looping, and Str Blood mages overpowering the masses. The staff fixed this and what happened Blood mages not only had the fireball nerfed (which was needed to bring the OPness down) but their plasma Cannon which no one complained about. As for CH their Static got such a stong nerf (which makes it more balanced since the old way was OP) that a lot of CH don't want to use it anymore since they new think it is underpowered.

    Also as I stated before PB is way OP and does more then supercharge at the same level. It improves with every 3 tech points while SC does with every 5. this make PB easily abused by those who spam tech (which just happens to be just about every caster mage at the higher to mid levels since I see most of them with near close to 100 tech or more) which can easily be done even at the mid low levels (17 and higher) I used my CH and Merc alts when I found out this info, and while my CH has an easier time fend of the casters (due to my Emp's and plasma armor) My merc even with the bunker blaster build get's destroyed by casters 95% of the time and it is a varium merc. The only way I can win with this account against them without getting destroyed is hoping to go first, or get lucky with my pyro fly. Having TM destroying all the classes because of the caster builds most use to win isn't balanced in the least, and with this info alone it calls for the PB to get a nerf.



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