Player Originality (or Lack Thereof) (Full Version)

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SylvanElf -> Player Originality (or Lack Thereof) (4/25/2013 18:58:40)

Dear fellow players, it's true that winning is the goal of the game.

But for the greater good of the community, would you be willing to not join all the class-changing and build-copying?

What I see is people talking theory on the forums, and then going to join all the other sheep when it comes to actual playing.

Even if it costs you some wins, you could play with the knowledge that you are not contributing to the problem.



Just kills inside to see literally 8/10 or more sometimes of a given class with the same build.



ScarletReaper -> RE: Player Originality (or Lack Thereof) (4/25/2013 19:00:52)

^hear hear. Would be nice huh? Unfortunetly the sheep will most likely not be swayed. -_-



Mother1 -> RE: Player Originality (or Lack Thereof) (4/25/2013 19:06:28)

For me it works like this. I play the builds that I like and find interesting. I don't care if they are underpowered or overpowered if I like the build I use it.

The only problem with this is if a build I like and using becomes OP then I am automatically lumped in with the other people who use the build because it is OP. That is what annoys me.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Player Originality (or Lack Thereof) (4/25/2013 19:21:48)

quote:

you could play with the knowledge that you are not contributing to the problem.

the problem is you can see another player's build.

it doesn't matter if i make a good build or not, thats not used by anyone else, because it will be copied if its good.

i made str tlms (when everyone was heal loop tlm) in the beginning of delta
within hours the build (exacts stats and skill tree) was being copied.

people will just copy from regular LB players (such as comical, E Z R A, JUPZ) because they know those builds are good at what they do, and that is to win.

why be forced to sacrifice winning?
perhaps this wouldn't be an issue if NPC wins were still around, because it would let you use UP builds without being forced to sacrifice winning/%



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Player Originality (or Lack Thereof) (4/25/2013 19:28:09)

I actually did a build survey in delta, where strength BHs and focus BMs run amok, and I can sympathize partially about many players' hatred for certain classes. I used to detest strength mass BH because it was extremely monotonous, slightly overpowered, and required no skill to use, while being enormously abundant. If I remember correctly, about 45 out of 50 BHs were strength mass back then in late delta, and about 70% of all focus builds were BM. The other 20% were TLM, and very small percentages for other classes. Out of almost 300 players, I saw around 10 mercs.



WhiteTiger -> RE: Player Originality (or Lack Thereof) (4/26/2013 23:11:52)

I must say I didn't really notice this before, perhaps I was just playing too little, but after countless battles today farming for spores I can honestly say I'm sick of seeing the exact same classes with the exact same build and the exact same equipment. It also doesn't help that now all equipment can have the same stats and damage, skill cores and bots are what people go for now. The point of the game is to win though, and I understand why the majority of people would want to use a successful build. In fact, I can honestly say I've also tried my hand at some of the previously "OP" builds, even though I've always made my own builds my own way ever since beta. Granted, it wasn't too successful (probably outdated by now), but it just shows how people have adapted in order to win.

The point of most games is to have fun, and let's face it - losing isn't what most people would consider fun. I do care a lot less about my win record and how many losses I get now, but it's still not enjoyable to see that red skull pop up on your screen. Winning on the other hand, is pretty fun (for me at least). I do occasionally catch a glimpse of a unique build different from all others I've seen (maybe one or two today), but they're not successful (perhaps my class is just the counter for their build) since even my relatively fail build can easily defeat them. I feel that the lack of creativity is partly caused by a lack of true balance in the game, but I'm confident something will be done about it sooner or later. I'm sure I can't do any better, so I'm not one to judge the devs' plan for balance in the game.

So, what's the point of what I just said? Well, yes I do agree with you that there is a lack of originality between builds, and yes I'm quite sick of facing the same build over and over again, but I guess it's just how players have adapted to the recent changes in Omega in order to win and have fun doing so. There will be future changes and hopefully one of the next times players adapt to them, we can have some creativity.



Dual Thrusters -> RE: Player Originality (or Lack Thereof) (4/27/2013 0:15:23)

@ansh0

Tlms are too easy if you ask me -_-

On topic: Yes, there needs to be some more originality. Too many players with the same build.

Scale of most unoriginal classes

-Tlm
-TM
-CH
-BM
-BH
-Merc



ansh0 -> RE: Player Originality (or Lack Thereof) (4/27/2013 0:19:46)

^BH is the most unoriginal(with TLM).


Every one of those... classes is 5 focus.



Dual Thrusters -> RE: Player Originality (or Lack Thereof) (4/27/2013 0:21:46)

quote:

Every one of those... classes is 5 focus.


Well not Tech Mage :P



ansh0 -> RE: Player Originality (or Lack Thereof) (4/27/2013 0:22:46)

^I mean't BH and TLM.


TM is probably the most original due to not being focus.



Dual Thrusters -> RE: Player Originality (or Lack Thereof) (4/27/2013 0:24:27)

@ansh0

Don't forget Cyber, we are all forced to use the same build: Tank Focus with maxed SA



ansh0 -> RE: Player Originality (or Lack Thereof) (4/27/2013 0:28:57)

^Well all but TM.


Even I am 5 focus(want it nerfed to the ground, really).

It's absolutely 0 fun.

When you know you will lose 90% of your battles because devs stopped caring for balance.



Dual Thrusters -> RE: Player Originality (or Lack Thereof) (4/27/2013 0:33:56)

I have been a focus build since level 18. I just don't like other players using it too :P



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Player Originality (or Lack Thereof) (4/27/2013 1:05:31)

wouldn't it be a lack of build originality rather than player originality? I've seen multiple different CHs with the same build play differently.



ND Mallet -> RE: Player Originality (or Lack Thereof) (4/27/2013 1:10:47)

Players have always latched onto a build that works. The difference between the past and present is that now we have less OPd builds to cling to. In Beta, you could easily abuse strength, support, heal loop, tanking, etc. It was less tedious than fighting 5 focus each match but getting trampled by every class and type of build makes you feel worse than if you lose to only one class and one type of build. At least now if you lose, you can blame it all on one class/build. But if you have to blame multiple builds/classes, then you're more prone to be labeled untalented at build making.



Mother1 -> RE: Player Originality (or Lack Thereof) (4/27/2013 1:55:00)

The answer to why no one is being creative is because of the following reasons

1 People want to win and most will do anything to win and what better way for people to win then to use a build they know will work rather then try and find one and get their butt kicked left and right.

2 Every time someone finds a decent build people who can't beat it go and complain "This build is OP it needs to be nerfed" Even if it is proven that the build isn't OP due to low win rate. The problem with this one is that people want their build to beat all or are to lazy to find make a counter build. 9/10 the staff listens to these people and boom the build is nerfed. Then the cycle continues and we have less and less to work with that is actually effective.



Jekyll -> RE: Player Originality (or Lack Thereof) (4/27/2013 2:06:41)

Here's an anecdote to keep everyone happy:

I was in 1v1, and there was this guy who critted me and then blocked me. After I blocked him once (just once!), he got defensive and said "Ok ur lucky". I wonder... is this how we all expect to be lucky in every match? Pretty disappointing, in my opinion.



Baron Dante -> RE: Player Originality (or Lack Thereof) (4/27/2013 5:47:16)

The problem doesn't stem from the players that take on popular builds. The problem stems from how people can't be bothered to figure valid counters against said builds to make them something you don't WANT to use.

Right now, I use a build with the basis of kill fast/die fast. Not for a winrate, but to be able to get done with the releases as quickly as possible. The build is something that should NEVER be viable because to be frank, it has a plethora of counters. However, it does what I want by maintaining a high enough win% to keep it viable for my purposes. Here, it's not my fault for using a build that works. The problem then stems from either balance (Here, no. The build is not unbalanced in the slightest) or the fact people just can't be bothered to make a counter. Now, the build isn't that absurdly common in itself, so making a counter for it may or may not be a good way, but say, for example, 5 Focus builds. People complain and complain till the death of the universe to get a nerf to them. In most communities, there would already be several viable counterbuilds made (Which also don't get steamrolled by everything else).

So yes, the issue is in fact in the players. But not those that actually want to win. they use what works. If you want it to change, make it so that it no longer works.

Jekyll: Funny story about that. I barely ever even notice crits and blocks and whatnot by myself. I just see messages about luck and whatever. Another problem with the community. It doesn't see how luck is a skill most of them absolutely suck at. Thus instead they complain about luck, instead of learning how to deal with it. I could start making balance posts about how this game requires skill and it is bad.



romanu -> RE: Player Originality (or Lack Thereof) (4/27/2013 7:58:30)

Well, it's a PVP game, just for wins players copy the op class/build, same as in any other competitive game. All the nerfs in omega push players to even a more limited selection of builds.



EpicIsEpic -> RE: Player Originality (or Lack Thereof) (4/27/2013 8:39:06)

@baron dante
I agree somewhat when i have 140 Tech abuse build and they use their gun 3 times and on 3rd time it deflects and then they say LUCKY. Somewhat i disagree before some time i had a match.
1st Crit then Stun with maul then stun with aux then crit again. You just can't win if something like that happens to you.
@topic
Obviously every one copys builds which work and if you TRY to be different you get slaughtered by the build two things might happen
1) You change to their build and kill who trys do be different (very likely)
2) You continue to get killed and try to find new build that counters the 1 which beat you. (very unlikely)



Hard boy -> RE: Player Originality (or Lack Thereof) (4/27/2013 13:45:00)

I know I would recieve alot of hate for this suggestion, but i think the devs should get everyone a free class change, and 2 weeks to decide which class they want, and after these 2 weeks, class change locks, and a huge balance update comes out, and then you Will have to adapt, not just class change ur way through.



Yo son -> RE: Player Originality (or Lack Thereof) (4/27/2013 14:14:30)

what if your build got copied? or what if you were using that build, then all of a sudden it became the ideal build that everyone was using?



Hard boy -> RE: Player Originality (or Lack Thereof) (4/27/2013 14:25:05)

there will be no everyone, class change would be locked.



Baron Dante -> RE: Player Originality (or Lack Thereof) (4/27/2013 15:39:04)

quote:

1st Crit then Stun with maul then stun with aux then crit again. You just can't win if something like that happens to you.


While that's true, a complete lack of luck would mean there are no variables. All battles would function exactly the same. However, when I said "luck is a skill", you need to learn to minimize the amount of luck you need, or how much luck can affect you. Most people would agree that a build that wins 100% time assuming it pulls of a stun, but only wins, say 30% without, is not a good one. Whether the build works or not is nigh entirely dependent on that stun. Most people would know to avoid a build that does that.

Yes, there will be times when luck will inevitably make you lose. But whether any amount of luck can do that, or not, can be affected by making a build that accounts for it. Sure, you can make a build out of nothing but STR. You WILL get Deflected, blocked and Crit more. At that point, you are either all right with that, or you actually make a build that doesn't rely entirely on STR. Then, the likelihood of those happening against you are far lesser. You have affected the effect luck has in your battles.

quote:

what if your build got copied? or what if you were using that build, then all of a sudden it became the ideal build that everyone was using?


If it's the best build, it will be copied eventually. At that point, the cycle goes on, and it being the dominating build, will have counters devised against it. Alternatively it just stops being viable since the build it was made to counter is gone.



Xendran -> RE: Player Originality (or Lack Thereof) (4/27/2013 15:57:28)

quote:

At that point, the cycle goes on, and it being the dominating build, will have counters devised against it.


This depends on the game balance. There was a point where i managed to get one of my heal loop builds into a state where it could not be countered by anything but very large amounts of luck. You'd need around 4 or 5 blocks to kill it. Crits didn't do anything because of its naturally low def/res, and low heal cooldown.



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