(DF) "Ember" Discussion (Full Version)

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afb728 -> (DF) "Ember" Discussion (7/5/2013 1:46:09)

This a discussion thread for this story.

Please, any feedback is welcome and appreciated.


Table of Contents



Various plot points explained:

Magic/ Tongue of the Flame
Tongue Part II



Also, notice a plot hole or a Marty-Stu moment? See here.

Thanks, and have a beautiful day.

-afb




Dwelling Dragonlord -> RE: (DF) "Ember" Discussion (7/5/2013 17:08:48)

The reader does not know what gender the protagonist is until Celeritas speaks in Chapter 2. You may want to remedy that.

Now for some of my thoughts as I was reading your story.


quote:

The Tongue is the mouth-piece of the Fire Lord on Lore.

A communicant?
quote:

It is similar to the Avatar, but instead of being composed entirely of the Lord’s energy, the Tongue is a mortal infused with Its power.

That sounds like a different degree of avatar.
quote:

Fiamme had found me, and in a relatively short time, too.

He expected any less from a god?
quote:

“I couldn’t help but overhear that conversation”, said Celerita.

Celeritas
quote:

“Tasks that would ultimately help you reach freedom, and annoy the Fire Lord.”

The mother seeks to annoy her daughter? Interesting.

Anyway, I enjoyed the story thus far. Keep it up.




afb728 -> RE: (DF) "Ember" Discussion (7/5/2013 19:21:22)

Thank you. Mentioning his gender never crossed my mind; I always figured it would be implied or inferred at some point. I'll see if I can go back and change some things to remedy that.




Dwelling Dragonlord -> RE: (DF) "Ember" Discussion (7/7/2013 15:36:31)

What do you mean by "Voidstar's homeland"?




afb728 -> RE: (DF) "Ember" Discussion (7/7/2013 23:36:58)

I'll change that to domain.




afb728 -> RE: (DF) "Ember" Discussion (9/15/2013 17:39:52)

By the way, there have been 3 more chapters since the Sandsea one.




Chaosweaver Amon -> RE: (DF) "Ember" Discussion (9/15/2013 19:24:49)

Well, I've read all of the chapters. And I quite like the story. I look forward to seeing the next few chapters.




Dwelling Dragonlord -> RE: (DF) "Ember" Discussion (9/16/2013 14:46:19)

quote:

For those who don’t know, the walk from the capital of the Sandsea to the edge of Doomwood is really long.


You mentioned "woods in the south", but Doomwood is to the north-west/west of the Sandsea.

quote:

It was within a few miles of a portal (I think it was to Falconreach) and there were several elementals scurrying around, living their lives<> It reminded me of the nice parts of the Fire Temple.

.


The story looks good. What is your explanation as to how Balthar got past all of those doors Ember needed Haeos' help for though?




afb728 -> RE: (DF) "Ember" Discussion (9/16/2013 16:21:46)

Balthar is a gnome. Ember is not. Balthar, through his upbringing, has much more skill in dealing with machines.

Alternatively, I also believe that Balthar got in through dumb luck. Haeos's lightning fried the doors' computers, and when Ember fled the Orb room, he shut the doors, but never noticed them locking. Balthar probably leaned against one and it opened, so he followed the path to the room.

I have a theory as to who moved the Orb from its room and into the ruins of a building, but if I am correct, it remains to be seen.

And you are mostly right. The Necropolis is almost directly westward of the Sandsea, but (and here's when I'm nitpicking) it is a tiny bit to the south.




Chaosweaver Amon -> RE: (DF) "Ember" Discussion (9/20/2013 23:47:06)

I like that new chapter. Nice cliffhanger.




afb728 -> RE: (DF) "Ember" Discussion (10/9/2013 23:07:41)

An Update:
Real Life is getting busy, so the next chapter won't be for a while. I know where I'm going for Fire Part 2, but I need to figure out how to write it.

To make up for my lack of writing, I am outlining in great detail the rest of Book One, and may move onto Book Two depending on how much I get done and if I have Writer's Block.

Currently, I am outlining the Final 13th, which will have some sort of twist, as well as revisit at least one minor plot element. And that's all I can tell you for now.

-E




afb728 -> RE: (DF) "Ember" Discussion (12/28/2013 2:52:43)

WOOO!

After months of writer's block, I finally wrote the latest chapter. It's short, but I accomplished what I needed to. I also left a small cliffhanger.
What was holding me back was that I lacked a clear idea of what I wanted to happen in the chapter, and I lacked the right character to do it. But I figured it out at the beginning of December.

Be thankful I took time to edit it, or else you would have gotten a reeeeally cheesy line.

My plan is to have all of Book 1 written and posted by June. That will be at least 3 chapters more, probably closer to 5, depending on what I do with the Final 13th.

In the months when I couldn't write, I outlined all of Book 1 and wrote a very vague outline for Book 2. Assuming that I finish those before the game's Book 3 is finished, I have several filler arcs planned that will set up things in Book 3 and tie up some loose ends (such as how that Orb was moved, perhaps...).

In closing, I have a question: Is Ember a Mary Sue/Marty Stu?
I've tried to avoid it by giving him some limits and not describing him, but I would like some confirmation on it. For a list of common Mary Sue traits, see here.

As always, your feedback is welcome and appreciated.




afb728 -> RE: (DF) "Ember" Discussion (8/11/2014 1:16:19)

It's been six months, but the Water Orb Chapter is finally out! There're a few hints of what might be coming and a HUGE series of explanations of the rules that govern the divine (Eg Avatars). The next chapter is going to be kind of short, and then I don't know if I'm going to do the Final 13th all at once or not yet.

As always, your feedback is welcome an appreciated.

PS: If you could answer that Marty Stu question, that'd be great. I've been trying to avoid him be one, but I'd like another opinion on whether or not he is.

Thanks!

--E




Dwelling Dragonlord -> RE: (DF) "Ember" Discussion (8/11/2014 6:56:32)

quote:

I hadn’t had enough time overnight to regenerate enough to teleport outside of my cave, let alone go to an ocean, at least several hundred miles away, and still have that amount of mana.

had

quote:

Fire’s choice was rather selfish. It ruined multiple lives, one after another, and robbed the mortals in question of their free will. The rest of us chose to make elves, the first of whom were willing participants in our experiment.


To my knowledge there aren't any Energy Elves (as of yet).


I don't know if I'd call Ember a Marty Stu, though what shielded him against the Old One's mental influence? Because while I could attribute a lot of stuff he did prior to planning and cunning, resisting an eldritch evil without effort is certainly steering your character in the direction of becoming a Marty Stu.




afb728 -> RE: (DF) "Ember" Discussion (8/11/2014 11:07:25)

Ugh. I didn't even consider that. Like honestly, didn't even cross my mind once. I'm going to think about it and then edit something in to make the resistance more believable.

Thanks!


--E


EDIT: Shifted it so his experience is more similar to the Hero's, he's just mad enough at the way Kathool speaks to him in the dreams to fight back. Let me know if it doesn't work.




deatharrows -> RE: (DF) "Ember" Discussion (8/11/2014 22:28:35)

I just finished chapter three and wow, good job! I like the whole theme of interacting with the avatars whilst tying in with the main game. If I had to give any criticism, it's involving the Would-be-tongue's magical prowess. I'm two chapters in, and I noticed the protagonist is way to skilled in combat magic. I thought the whole thing about tongue training was that it would prepare you to exert the power of the elements un tainted by human mana. This guys conjuring shields. I get the sapping, but teleportation? That seems like some pretty human tainted stuff. Even aside from that, the sand clothes are a bit of a pass for things. I mean it saps nothing from him but a one time fee of mana, and it is some how bearable to wear whilst being made of sand. These are just minor complaints though. The premise is nice, but so far the character has no... well character. Then again, I am still on chapter three. All my nitpicking aside, this story is intriguing. You have earned a cookie of valor! Please explain those things though.




afb728 -> RE: (DF) "Ember" Discussion (8/12/2014 18:04:28)

I did notice the magical prowess thing, so I've tried to rein that in. In the later chapters, he becomes more easily drained. (And injured, too.)


Regarding the clothes: "Mold" was a bad choice of words. I meant "transform", then "enchant". I'm going to fix that. Done.

There's a Tl;dr version at the bottom.

Regarding magic in general: What I meant was "Elemental" magic. And I've been meaning to explain this in-story for a while, so here we go. An early draft of the character had him like this:

quote:

He does not use elementally charged spells (like summoning rainfall from the clouds), he uses his mana to transform the world to what he wishes (having the ground be dry, then suddenly underneath 3 feet of water). Although powerful and highly educated, he is only human, and without the support of an Elemental Lord, he only has the power of an above-average mage, but is much more technically skilled.

-taken from a correspondence


That example of magic is kind of stupid, but this was written directly after the first two chapters a year ago. (Now, I would have him open a portal from the ocean, set to close when a certain amount of water flowed through). The thing with Elemental magic is that (for anyone, not just people destined to host the Lord of Fire) it's always going to be weak to its opposing element. If you use Ice to improve your vision, then in times of great heat, it's going to fail, unless you go through the trouble of building multiple fail-safes. The one way to avoid this is to only use mana, which is more difficult because you don't have the strength of an Element backing you up. You're drawing on your own reserves, or from your living surroundings, or, if you're drawing signs, the magic inherent in the signs themselves. The Elements act as a short-cut in a spell-- some of the Elemental Lord's knowledge and strength is there to make sure that the spell goes right. The Element knows what it's suppose to do, and provided you have the willpower and basic know-how, it can handle some of the complexities. For a lot of mages, it's as simple as saying "I want this done, I don't care how." For others, who do care how, it's a matter of spelling out exactly what you want (Like programming: If this, then that. If this2, then that3.)

Not using any Element requires an exact knowledge of what you want done, because if you mess up, there's nothing to take the fall for you. Even if Ember were a normal mage, he'd have to be well-versed in whatever his specialty was or he would be dead by now. Coupled with Ember's future role as Tongue, which requires a good education to be effective (The possessing Lord might know how to do something, but if the Host didn't know it as a mortal, then together they can't do it.), being a knowledgeable in every type of magic is more than just a safety precaution, it is necessary for the strength of the Realm. No one can reliably see the future, so being prepared for any and every possibility is a must. Only a small amount of ingenuity is allowed once bonded, by modifying known spells, but you end up using 3 large steps when you could have only used one. The more little steps you know in a spell, the more you can modify it. Without that education, you essentially have a second Avatar trying to metaphorically nail something to a wall using Styrofoam. Yeah, the Lord might have the strength to do it, but the tool is very ineffective. That's why Ember spent all of his life locked in a Temple reading. His purpose in life was to be the best hammer (sorry, extended metaphor) possible.

The teleportation thing is an extension of that. If the Great Dragon (Orbed or not), the Avatar, and the Tongue are all required to be at the same spot at once, and all are equidistant from it and half a world away from that spot, the Dragon and the Avatar can each get there quickly, either through flight or teleportation. The Tongue, however, has to get there through mortal means. That means walking, or grabbing a griffin, or using a permanent portal (Eg Warlic's in Falconreach), or making his own.


I'm going to explain some things about the Tongue:


The Tongue's purpose is to act as the medium between the Elemental Lord and the mortal world. That means more than just sitting on a cushion and answering questions, or leading the Cult of Fire and the Elementals. It means that he is required to help villages in need in any way he can. Part of the Lord of Fire is stuck living as a human in order to make things better for everyone, to maintain empathy while still having the power level to make a change. Creatures like the Avatars, which are just really dense concentrations of the Lords' power, come up with their own personalities and are their own person unless possessed by the Elemental Lord, generally have no reason to look out for the mortals. The Orbs have no personality, but their purpose is for mortals to take things into their own hands or to empower the Great Dragons. The Elves, like Neso said, have more or less the same purpose as the Tongue, only without the direct possession. The problem with them is that they became too self-involved. That could happen to the Tongue, but a proper Tongue shouldn't be just the Lord deciding things or the Host doing his own thing (like Salt), it should be two beings keeping each other inline and working in concert for the same goal. Two should become One. Naturally, each Host's personality has an effect on what the Tongue does, but having being able to work together is part of the compatibility test in order to be chosen. You've seen two failed Tongues (Ember and Salt.), Ember because he never bonded and I'll get to Salt in a paragraph.

Neso says that Fire chose selfishly, but I think that, assuming that the Host and the Lord work well together, the Tongue is kinder than making elves. You only change one person at a time and get much more bang for your buck. The elves have the Lords' power spread equally between them, more diluted with each new one. Additionally, some may not be suited to the task, meaning a waste of power.

Salt is a special case. He had the aptitude, and could have been a great Tongue. The problem is, he was just some beginner mage apprentice when the previous Tongue died. No other child with aptitude had been born in the Temple and people had been looking for a replacement in the outside world, but none had been found (You want an instant replacement.). When the previous Tongue died (I want to say it was in battle in the countryside.) , Salt was the nearest person with aptitude. Because he didn't have a lot of spells, he was essentially useless. The Fire Lord decided to keep Salt hidden away in the Temple so that he wouldn't die before a new Host was found. The Lord also resolved to have at least one more backup (This part is a secret. Ember doesn't know.), who would be trained with the necessary skills and knowledge, then have his memories locked away unless they were needed (The spell was phrased so that by Possessing him, the memories would return.) and kept in a safe place. Will that backup ever make an appearance? No. Fiamme and the Fire Lord want Ember. He's one of the best candidates in ages (Not the best, but he's up there in the rankings.). The backup is going to stay where he is, living his life as a mortal. In the very unlikely event that he does appear, it'll be in passing as the most minor background character imaginable.


Tl;dr version: So, to wrap it all up, the Tongue needs to know everything for the sake of the Realm and the surrounding mortals. That includes teleportation, shields, whatever. He's not meant to sit on his backside all day being waited on; he's meant to do something. Yes, in the first few chapters, I am inconsistent with mana-costs and power levels, but those are steadily becoming more realistic.

EDIT: Or I've installed a convenient plot device to get around mana costs (see the Fire Chapter, Part 1).


Thanks for plowing through this block of text and for reading my story. I hope this answers your question. If you have any more, don't hesitate to ask. :)


-E










afb728 -> RE: (DF) "Ember" Discussion (8/15/2014 23:52:34)

I've decided to go back and fix things that make Ember Marty Stu-ish and some plot holes, too, if there are any. If you have any suggestions, please post them and I'll see what I can do to fix them. If any of the fixes don't work, tell me, and I'll do what I can.
Also, please READ the story to make sure that I haven't already fixed it.

To be Fixed:

    *Weapon knowledge (Scythe, sickles. I'm keeping the weapons, but I want them to be justified.) Done.

      *The weapons, sickles in particular, are used in some of the more important rituals (including the possession of the Tongue.) Ember is trained in them both to fulfill his role as the leader of the Cult of Fire ceremonially and to give him weapons for use in close quarters (sickles) and at a small range (scythe).

    *The Energy Orb can't be in that room two weeks before Popsprocket becomes Simus Prime. Done

      *The Orb has been removed from the room. It had to have been removed before Ember got there, otherwise we have some really weird timeline stuff going on. Now, the two-week deadline from when the Hero joins the War is a bit unrealistic, but believable.


    Thanks, everybody. Your suggestions will be added to the list as I get to them.

    -E


    EDIT: If it's mana costs, I'm not going to change it. Those have been steadily brought into realistic levels.

    EDIT2: If there's any part of the world you want to know more about, let me know. I'd be happy to elaborate on it.




deatharrows -> RE: (DF) "Ember" Discussion (8/17/2014 15:42:31)

@afb, that explained everything really well. Thanks for answering my question!




afb728 -> RE: (DF) "Ember" Discussion (9/11/2014 3:36:48)

Chapter 10 is up!

This is a relatively short chapter. It's mainly to set up the Final 13th.

Regarding the Final 13th, I think I'm going to write it all up and the break it into chapters. It's going to be very, very long. I might end up having to use colored text, although I hope I won't. I don't have a timeline right now.

In the meantime, I'm happy to answer any questions about the story or the world it's set in. I really enjoyed writing out the rules for magic.

Also, if you have any plot holes to point out, please do so and I'll do my best to fix them.

Have a lovely day,

--E




Dwelling Dragonlord -> RE: (DF) "Ember" Discussion (9/11/2014 5:51:32)

quote:

From SIl near Amityvale to the Lost Cities of the Ice-Elf Empire, the man was nowhere to be found.

Sil


The new chapter was written very fluidly, good job on that.

Here are some things I'd like to point out.

1. Trey Surehunter isn't rich in Dragonfable. It is implied that he went to the Temple of Gloom before and found the froot loop left behind by Fae.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=18867688

Trey Surehunter: All those years of being too late...
Trey Surehunter: ..Finding nothing but broken traps.... froot loops instead of power rings....


2. Trey is cheating on Valencia's mother, isn't he?

3. Why did Ember mention Voidstar to Trey?

4. Why is Voidstar so confident that the Blade of Awe is safe with him involving a greedy man in the hunt of the only artefact which can unlock it?




afb728 -> RE: (DF) "Ember" Discussion (9/11/2014 12:09:38)

Dumb typos are dumb. Thanks for pointing that out.

In response to your questions:
    1.Maybe he keeps spending it all. Being able to access any treasure prevents him from having to learn how to manage his funds responsibly.
    2. Yes, but I didn't see a ring. I wasn't sure if I wrote that well enough, because I had to dance around what I was really writing about.
    3. Because name-dropping works. Trey's not going to listen to some random guy that he bumped into, but if said guy is an Avatar's messenger, his message has some weight behind it.
    4. Why would Voidstar send Ember to tell said greedy man about the hunt of the only artifact that can unlock it?




Dwelling Dragonlord -> RE: (DF) "Ember" Discussion (9/11/2014 13:18:04)

1. The thing is that he didn't have any luck finding treasure. (See quote.) He was a desperate man who got obsessed with finding ANY treasure at all.
2. Wasn't really an issue, mostly a remark. Though I haven't really seen any married character wear a (visible) ring in Lore.
3. I thought the idea of Ember being a middleman was that the Elemental Avatars couldn't get involved themselves? (With people knowing of their involvement.)
4. Fair enough.




afb728 -> RE: (DF) "Ember" Discussion (9/25/2014 13:56:06)

I've been thinking about for a while, and I've come up with some answers:

1. Maybe he just never found enough to satisfy him.

3. I don't think that it's that the Avatars can't let mortal people know of their involvement, but that they shouldn’t directly intercede to talk to someone like Trey, for example. People like Ember, Priests and Priestesses (Lady Celestia, I'm pretty sure, spoke with them.), the Hero, and Great Mages can talk to them directly. Ember because his purpose is to be a medium, priests because it's a religious experience (at least in the Fire Temple, I don't know about Celestia and co.), and the last three because they are all, or will be, major, lasting forces on Lore. These forces will be strong enough to challenge the Avatars in some way or to be worthy of their respect: The Hero battles Fiamme in Book 2, both Warlic and Nythera fought the Avatars. Those destined to for Greatness should only be communicated with indirectly (dreams, portents, etc.) until they are on the cusp of Greatness. Trey is not any of those, so Voidstar should go through Ember.
An expansion of this is that the knowledge that one was conversing with one of the most powerful beings on Lore/ magical presence would destroy at least his mind, if not his body.
Note: It’s different if they address a large group of people (For example, the Storm War, when they address Falconreach.) Then, the pressure is spread out, and in the case of the Storm War, everyone had figured out that the Avatars were involved.

Another answer is: the Divine work in mysterious ways. (A cop-out, I know.)

Or maybe, Voidstar doesn’t want to alert any mages in Lolosia to his presence. Have you noticed that the Avatars only directly appear in the middle of Nowhere? Once mages get involved, you have a bunch of new variables to maneuver around.
Tl;dr: They can, but reeeeeally shouldn't.

I hope these answers are satisfying, and I apologize for the delay in getting back to you on this.

I’m about to start writing the Final 13th, so wish me luck.
Have a great day,
--E




afb728 -> RE: (DF) "Ember" Discussion (10/22/2014 3:07:20)

Quick Update: I finally sat down to write the next chapter(s), so I'm about a third of the way through the Final 13th. I think I'm going to finish writing it, then break it up into smaller chapters (Yes, I realize I've already said this.)
I'm struggling with using an extreme deus ex machine, so I might end up changing it.

Also, I've gone back and fixed a plot-hole involving the Energy Orb. Go check that out.

A lot of stuff is going to come back for the Final 13th, so be prepared. There's also the classic "Big Reveal".

Have a great day, and let me know if you have any questions.
--E

P.S. Did you know that every one of my "How We Roll" submissions is either connected to Dragonfable or my story in some way?
P.P.S. Dwelling Dragonlord: see my response to your question about Trey cheating on Valencia's mother. There's a surprise. ;)




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