Comprehensive discussion regarding Balance (Full Version)

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FrostWolv -> Comprehensive discussion regarding Balance (1/12/2014 22:50:57)

Off topic, but a must read :

Please comment with a valid reasoning about your thoughts about What and Why you think and how can it be implemented. I am done with some forum members how just post this is wrong and doesnt justify their opinion

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In this game of Epic Duel true Balance cannot be achieved ever !! why because all PvP games are like this ... some out of balance and some near balance .... but none are PERFECT.

Why am I posting this thread is because EdwardVulture has showed the main scenario running in EpicDuel. His forum

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Balance is always needed in every game ..... but their are some factors which magnifies the state of imbalance in this game.


What happens after each week of balance update ?

this is the comment by Mother1 which tells us about the OP flavor of the week.

quote:

From what I have seen the following happens with balance

1 A powerful build is found
2 People copy it
3 said build becomes overused
4 People who don't want to use said build but get beaten by it too often due to it being overused complain
5 Staff comes in and nerfs said build
6 Another build or builds that were kept in check by said build fills the mantle
7 repeat steps 1-6



Hence there will always be an OP flavor of the week.

For those who want statistics about OP flavor of the week:-
quote:

In Early to mid delta ---> majority were Tactical Mercenary
In late delta ----> majority were Strength Blood Mage
In early omega ---> majority were Strength Merc
In mid omega ----> majority were Glass cannon Mage
After balance bonanza update ----> majority were Bounty Hunter and Caster Mage
Now after balance update for static Grenade ---> tide is shifting towards Tech Mage



What are the Factors that affect balance?

1. Class Jumping
2. Low Level Stuck (due to more loss and few wins)
3. Players in different levels.


Why is Class Jumping affecting balance?

Changing class is not easy and is not tough either once a player is shifted to OP flavor of the week, then they can again go back to OP flavor of another week by simply winning and accumulating credits because it takes more than 3 weeks for the developers to make a balance update. This this feature is presently being abused by our ingame community.


For the other factors and how to reduce these factors to affect balance:-
quote:

1. Reduce the build copy by reducing the class jump by increasing the Class Change cost from 50k to 100k credits

2. Introduce Experience Giving NPC .... 15 fight in an hour .......... so that these npc only grants experience not wins. How will this help? The problem that lower level players have is to fight higher level players which is inevitable, and there are many high level that uses OP class and build of the week, but few high levels are non-OP class. Some low levels are bound to change class to use OP build in an hope to kill High level non-OP class just to get experience.

3. Little tweak in balance is always needed. Like I said before if balance cant be perfected , it still can be made Better than what it is at present.


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How will it work :-

1. Developers introduces a balance update.
2. OP flavor of the week emerges.
3. Players will copy it even if the credits is raised to 100k.
4. lets say 80% players copies this build.
5. Complain will be seen in the forum
6. Developers will again make an balance update after2-3 weeks
7. OP flavor of the week will emerge
8. Players will try to copy it but some will fail due to increase in cost
9. this time only 50% will copy it

...... this will go on till the class hopers will be reduced to 10% and rest 90% will be able to play with players within that 90% undisturbed by this OP flavor of the week.

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One of my favorite balance suggestion that I will like everyone to give a look made by Remorse ---> Stamina



Drianx -> RE: Comprehensive discussion regarding Balance (1/13/2014 8:55:33)

One quick comment:
build copying is not affecting balance, it is the other way around. Build copying is a consequence of poor balance.



DarkDevil -> RE: Comprehensive discussion regarding Balance (1/13/2014 9:02:07)

as i said before the problem isn't in class hoping , but in why they hop ?
if you prevent hoping then only very few ppl will have an advantage (specificly the ones that hop which use varium) while other will be tied to their class because one class isn't balanced.
hoping never affected balance , it only shows which class is unbalanced and makes it fixed faster.
otherwise we will never know which class is OPed.

the reason why ppl hop is because of balance , where if there was balance the hoping idea will be useless.
balance can never be perfect but hoping fixes it.

in early delta ppl jumped to tlm and smoke was replaced.
in early omega ppl jumped to bm and bloodlust and deadly aim were replaced.
in mid omega ppl jumped to glass cannon mages so the scaling on malf was removed and weapon damage was reduced.
in late omega ppl jumped to bh and then static was nerfed.


this is a pvp game so the cycle will always remain.
its just that none is working on balance in ED so balance moves aren't acurate and can sometimes be random.

reducing the loop will only delay balance.



Altador987 -> RE: Comprehensive discussion regarding Balance (1/13/2014 9:29:02)

actually class hopping shows which class is generally the most balanced, for example the bounty, when static grenade was originally brought in the class had just about perfect balance and synergy (they could've nerfed the grenade a little but it wasn't necessary) which brought up the flaws in other classes which is why others switched... if the other classes had been balanced then there would've been no need to switch in the first place which is why we never reach balance as the class that does receive balance always gets a nerf eventually



DarkDevil -> RE: Comprehensive discussion regarding Balance (1/13/2014 9:43:37)

what happened to bounty maybe called balance or overnerf , but it remains an act of balance.

the balance is about a line were anything above it is OP.
due to overnerfing that line droped down from usefull to unusable.
so for anything now to be called balanced must be unusable.
while anything that is usable are now considered OPed.
and unfortunately there was no line of how deep the word unusable could go so you can see things UPed while not identified because the balance idea is everything being unusable.



Altador987 -> RE: Comprehensive discussion regarding Balance (1/13/2014 10:29:27)

i'm not sure if this^ is an agreement or just a statement



edwardvulture -> RE: Comprehensive discussion regarding Balance (1/13/2014 10:50:08)

I would say the pressure not to lose is why people "evolve or die" except right now, evolving turns everyone into the same things, which is the opposite of evolution(lol). By the way, "evolve or die" does not mean to make a new build that counters OP builds and is somehow OP in itself, it means to class jump+change into the OP class or quit.



Xendran -> RE: Comprehensive discussion regarding Balance (1/13/2014 14:51:36)

quote:

except right now, evolving turns everyone into the same things, which is the opposite of evolution(lol)


Actually, it's exactly what evolution is, it's just fast tracked so hard that it seems foreign to what you're used to being regarded as evolution.
Eventually given enough time, natural selection will find an ideal selection of parameters and traits for the situation that exists.

In the real world, things change enough that the ideal is constantly changing and never reached, but in a game like epicduel, there is only one environment (Battle), and that environment is left to stagnate constantly with outdated systems and few MAJOR balance changes. This means that enough time can go by for natural/unnatural selection to weed out pretty much every single non-ideal combination that exists, and since the environment of battle changes so slowly, the evolution of battle leaves only a few builds remaining as truly viable.
This is how we end up with everybody using one of a small number of pre-defined builds.



Pemberton -> RE: Comprehensive discussion regarding Balance (1/13/2014 22:03:40)

There is simply not enough balance testers/ testing to make this game balanced or close to balanced.



Trollok!!! -> RE: Comprehensive discussion regarding Balance (1/14/2014 21:43:14)

While ED's staff is a little on the short side (If you look at the wiki, a lot of members of stepped down from their duties), poor balance can hardly be attributed to simply the low number of people working on ED. If anything, I blame the community at large for its harsh and unconstructive criticism. If the team is so small, they obviously turn to player comments for aid. In fact, most of the changes have been brought upon by player complaints. And why are their mess ups? Easy, because the suggestions weren't as thought out as they should have been. Harsh but true.

I disagree with your comments Pemberton because WE are the testers (In a sense). And the hundreds of players who are online provide the feedback to help the game. The problem is too many people on this forum ask -- no, demand -- changes often without seeing consequences. The demands for nerfing Static Grenade resulted in the rise of the Tech Mages. This leaves a class that was previously somewhat held in check by another to run rampant due to weekly updates...



Pemberton -> RE: Comprehensive discussion regarding Balance (1/14/2014 22:36:40)

^ You cannot rely on players to be balance testers...because most if not all are biased for their own benefit of their own class.
No wonder this game is a mess if what you say is accurate and devs actually get their balance changes from the forums o.0



GearzHeadz -> RE: Comprehensive discussion regarding Balance (1/14/2014 22:39:34)

Many of the more intelligent and concerned players do come here. It is a decent place to get feedback.



Trollok!!! -> RE: Comprehensive discussion regarding Balance (1/14/2014 22:41:05)

I thought it was obvious. Staff came to the conclusion that BH was OP because of forums. The way they nerfed Static Grenade was actually suggested somewhere on the Balance Forums. As I recall, Passives -> Actives was suggested since Gamma...by who? Players. And look what was born from it. Unlimited energy regains in the form of Battery Backup with no limiting factor (At least Reroute was limited based on how much HP you could keep up).

^It is a decent place for feedback, don't get me wrong. But it's very general and usually far from the "comprehensive" this thread demands.



Pemberton -> RE: Comprehensive discussion regarding Balance (1/14/2014 22:46:45)

I think it was obvious the BH was OP with Static Grenade...No energy cost EMP with regain...scales with tech.
How that passed balance testing leads me to believe there is no balance team.



Trollok!!! -> RE: Comprehensive discussion regarding Balance (1/14/2014 22:50:47)

That's not the point. The point is with everyone on the team's heels about BH, they neglected the other OP class Tech Mage and now they're running rampant for another week when they could have been stopped alongside the BHs. Not very comprehensive if you ask me.



GearzHeadz -> RE: Comprehensive discussion regarding Balance (1/14/2014 22:54:21)

They did give static nade an over nerf though. Doing one or the other would of been a fine nerf, both is just too much.



Dual Thrusters -> RE: Comprehensive discussion regarding Balance (1/14/2014 23:10:30)

@Gearz

Ikr, moving it to support would have sufficed because then the % would be indirectly affected.



vordalthe2nd -> RE: Comprehensive discussion regarding Balance (1/14/2014 23:46:14)

On the two posts above, this is very true, but sadly many people will just not admit this. why did they make our energy regain just as worse as bm's? this brings up the fact that bm's energy regain is pretty horrible as well.



Mother1 -> RE: Comprehensive discussion regarding Balance (1/15/2014 0:03:26)

@ vordalthe2nd

it is called overnerfing and this isn't the first time something has been over nerfed or buffed either which is what I feel will happen to TM since they are taking idea's from all the nerf whiners just like they did with bounty hunter.

@ Trollok!!!

I am in complete agreement with your post. some people just post nerfs without thinking... no scratch that caring about the consequences of said nerfs just because they are having issues with that skill/build Etc and want it weakened so they can clobber it.



FrostWolv -> RE: Comprehensive discussion regarding Balance (1/15/2014 1:57:19)

Devs keeps on buffing then nerfing then over buffing and again over nerfing ..... it keeps on going

Hope they find a way to make balance better.

I made this thread to show what can be done if class hoping becomes limited and if Experience gaining options is increased for everyone. Fact is game will never have a Perfect balance, hence there will be always a balance issue no matter how big or small it maybe.

Hope ppl give constructive suggestion apart from just whinning for nerf



DarkDevil -> RE: Comprehensive discussion regarding Balance (1/15/2014 4:21:12)

but the fact is preventing class hoping won't fix balance , if a class is OPed then preventing ppl from using it is unfair and won't fix it , also we will prevent ppl from other classes because one is unbalanced.

class hoping must stay as its a natural thing in any game , sorry if you are affected the ppl who hop but its because you are actually affected by the poor balance and not the hop .

there are two statements and one is true.
a class is strong because alot of ppl use it.
alot of ppl use a class because its strong.

as long as the second one is true then balance is the problem not class hop.

i agree class hoping is bad , but its not the main problem and preventing it will cause bigger problems as it will be fixed naturally when the main problem is solved , so the harm is more than the gain here.



comicalbike -> RE: Comprehensive discussion regarding Balance (1/15/2014 4:32:44)

DarkDevil
Member other class hop because of unbalance ,but if they fixed balance same week, no class hop problem solved,but they leave it for a long time so its not the players fault just a balance issue



Pemberton -> RE: Comprehensive discussion regarding Balance (1/16/2014 2:59:40)

Class change abuse affects game diversity which I think is as important as balance itself.
It's tough to lose but it's just tougher to lose to one class with one build over and over again because of flawed balance.



Altador987 -> RE: Comprehensive discussion regarding Balance (1/16/2014 10:48:57)

class change abuse doesn't affect anything, if anything it's the ultimate and final say of balance as with class hopping it becomes obvious which classes have the upper hand over others



Luna_moonraider -> RE: Comprehensive discussion regarding Balance (1/17/2014 10:26:58)

we need to slow down the class jumping rates not prevent it.but this is impossible as there are no restrictions on class change. but no worries i has a plan that might work so that the game wont be filled with only the oped class. here is my plan . slowed down class change mean more time for us to find counter builds for the so called oped build.



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