Buff for support (Full Version)

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Predator9657 -> Buff for support (4/17/2014 10:22:21)

Fact: Support (or possible EP) is the most useless stat.

Currently, every point invested in support is pretty much a wasted stat point.

To stop support from being a "second rate" stat, it needs a few buffs. For example:

1. Increase the aux damage scaling (possible 4/5/7 [points of supp per 10 damage] instead of 4.5/6/8 )
2. First turn should be decided purely on support (no luck involved unless both players have same support)
3. Minimum % for crit chance becomes 0 and the support advantage crit increase/decrease rate should be increased (maybe to 1%/5Supp from 1%/7Supp)
4. Support advantage stun decrease rate should be increased (maybe -1%/3Supp from -1%/4Supp) and the cap should be raised (maybe from 12% to 15%)
5. Sidearm damage scaling changes from Str only to Str+Supp.
6. Skill which increase with support can have their scaling rate increased (possibly excluding the merc's multi)

Feedback/Criticism would be appreciated.

N.B: All the figures proposed are arbitrary.



GearzHeadz -> RE: Buff for support (4/17/2014 14:47:18)

Yeah. Stun chance and rage gain was recently removed from support... Wish they had told us whenever they did it. Definitely needs some sort of buff.



EpicIsEpic -> RE: Buff for support (4/20/2014 14:25:56)

i kinda agree



Wootz -> RE: Buff for support (4/20/2014 17:29:01)

Out of experience I can say that currently Support isn't a useless stat. Your opinion might differ looking at its uses.

In short, the thing that Support lacks is attributte increase. In the sense of Auxiliary damage. The thing that diminishes the stat is the Auxiliary cooldown time. That can easily be fixed by upgrading the damage scale.




Predator9657 -> RE: Buff for support (4/20/2014 18:26:25)

I will give evidence as to why I believe that support is a relatively "useless" stat:

1. Mathematically it can be proven by listing all the gains per point of a stat for every stat - including luck factors such as percentage changes in blocks/deflections/etc - that support comes out significantly worse off. Even if you factor in the scaling increase for skill (which will have to be done individually for each class) this is still the case. (Don't take my word for it, you can try it yourself too see it with your own eyes)

2. Take a look at all the "working" builds currently. They're all generally using the minimal possible support; either ~17 or 45 [base] (for focus). Adding to support from any other stat point in the case of any of these builds would be detrimental to the overall efficiency of the build. (Again feel free to try this out for yourself - make a decent build, and compare how it works with how it works when you take points off other stats to put onto support.)

quote:

Out of experience I can say that currently Support isn't a useless stat. Your opinion might differ looking at its uses.

Before you say "in short" (which is a phrase which implies concluding/summing up) this is the bit where you're meant to have given the evidence from your "experience" as to why support is not useless.

In short, the thing that Support lacks is attributte increase. In the sense of Auxiliary damage. The thing that diminishes the stat is the Auxiliary cooldown time. That can easily be fixed by upgrading the damage scale.


Finally, note the word "relatively" in my first sentence of this post. Therefore for you to merely point out why support is "useful" is unnecessary and inconclusive evidence. You must state and explain it's use in relation to the usefulness of the other stats if you would like to argue with the fact that support is significantly weaker than the others.



Wootz -> RE: Buff for support (4/20/2014 21:01:15)

Alright, I'll use my current build as an example comparing it to my yeti farming build (support is the only difference in them. 36 stat points).

Build A. The build is mildy high Strenght, Dexterity, Support and Health. Medium Technology. Low Energy. 59 Support without any stat modifiers.
Build B. Extremely high Strenght. Mildy high Dexterity and Health. Medium Technology. Low Energy. 23 Support without any stat modifiers.

Battle A.
Build A versus general Dexterity Tech mage.
The Mage has the base 17 Support, while I have 59.
Rage wise.
I as an attacker will gain Rage at the rate of 120,5% (110% base gain + 10,5% Support difference), while the Mage will gain Rage as an attacker at the rate of 99,5% (110% base gain - 10,5% Support difference.
I as an defender will gain Rage at the rate of 27,513% (25% base gain + 2,513% Support difference). The mage will gain Rage as an defender at the rate of 22,487% (25% base gain - 2,513% Support difference).

First strike.
After the use of the formula I would have 113% chance to go first (if the Mage is on the same level as I am. If the Mage is a lower level I'd lose 5% of the chance, while at higher level I'd gain 5%).

Critical Strike.
At the difference of 42 Support I'd have 10% chance of critting the Mage (4% + 6% Support diffence), while the Mage would have the lowest ammount of 1% chance of critting.

Stun.
If the Mage uses Overload, his 30% chance of stuning is reduced to 19,5% due to Support difference. If I throw a Stun grenade the chance stays at 30%.

Battle B.
Rage wise.
I as an attacker would gain rage at the rate of 111,5%, while the Mage would gain Rage at the rate of 108,5%.
I as an defender would gain rage at the rate of 25,375%, while the Mage would gain Rage at the rate of 24,625%. *

First strike.
I would have the chance of 57,5% of going first. *

Critical strike.
At the difference of 6 points my chance of critting would be 4,85%, while the Mages chance would be 3,15%.

Stun.
After the Mage uses Overload his stun chance would be reduced to 28,5%. If I used Stun grenade, the chance stays the same.


*paragraphs that have the multiplier at their end were accidently calculated by a Support difference of 5 points


Even though it is just one example, the point can be taken. After these mathematical evidence backing my statement I can surely say that Support is not as useless as people tend to think about its effectivity.



RageSoul -> RE: Buff for support (4/20/2014 23:20:32)

High-DEX/SUPP BH with a decent Multi-Shot can work wonders!



edwardvulture -> RE: Buff for support (4/20/2014 23:56:43)

that build is dead....when was the last time you played?



GearzHeadz -> RE: Buff for support (4/20/2014 23:58:55)

Depends on the level. Works better for CHs anyways.



ValkyrieKnight -> RE: Buff for support (4/21/2014 1:19:45)

Field Medic & Multi attack moves scaling with support...... Problem solved XD



Mother1 -> RE: Buff for support (4/21/2014 1:56:46)

@ valkyrieknight

Not even close. Merc already has their multi scaling with support yet due the way the game is now support builds are really seen at the high levels. Also putting field medic back with support? If it isn't don't correctly it will be the problem they had with beta all over again.



ValkyrieKnight -> RE: Buff for support (4/21/2014 2:01:54)

Sup Mercs suck, that arguement doesn't hold water. I think all none attacking skills should scale with sup, including energy drains, every none attacking skill should require support status. End all the 0 support builds including mine.



Mother1 -> RE: Buff for support (4/21/2014 2:42:46)

@ valkyrieknight

and forcing people to use support when they may not want to is just as bad because while it may solve one problem it will create another. Remember the goal is for balance and diversity not to over restrict players causing more player to quit.



Xendran -> RE: Buff for support (4/21/2014 4:26:33)

quote:

If it isn't don't correctly it will be the problem they had with beta all over again.


This problem already exists. Ever gotten into a fight against a mage that has been stalled to the point of an energy stalemate? It becomes a full on heal loop competition.
I told them that it was going to come back if they raised the level cap too high, and lo and behold, it did.



Mother1 -> RE: Buff for support (4/21/2014 5:14:02)

@ xendran

Yeah I have, and the only way that I end up winning one of those is if a luck factor comes which enable me to get the upper hand. I personally try to avoid using this tactic myself unless the person really just annoys me and I want to shut them up.

That was why they made all energy drainer/gainers have longer cooldown periods (with energy parasite being the exception)



Predator9657 -> RE: Buff for support (4/21/2014 10:39:34)

quote:

Even though it is just one example, the point can be taken. After these mathematical evidence backing my statement I can surely say that Support is not as useless as people tend to think about its effectivity.


Sorry, but if you're going to use figures to back up your point, you must take a holistic approach.

So you compared the first strike/stun/crit/rage advantages between 2 builds using different amount of support. In all these cases, more support = more advantage. However using only these results to reach a conclusion is invalid because it would be equal to you assuming that the only factors affected by stats in a battle is these 4; which is completely incorrect!

For a fair mathematical analysis of the value of each stat you must include the benefit provided by each stat in every way which affects the battle. Therefore damage (primary/side-arm/aux/robot)/def/res/luck % chances/etc.. must all be factored in when comparing the relative use of the stats. That will give you a true and fair view of where the stats stand in respect to each other. (And I can guarantee you that you will find supp to be lagging behind the others).

Even for your specific examples, if you remove as many points from support as possible (either to the minimum support for that class, or the minimum requirement for your preferred focus level, or the minimum that skill requires) and apportion these points strategically between the other stats (or maybe even dump them all onto HP), the efficiency of the build will increase.



Teserve -> RE: Buff for support (4/21/2014 21:34:30)

@above
Agreed, it is typically more efficient (no evidence, so feel free to just ignore me. all from personal experience) to invest in other stats.



Wootz -> RE: Buff for support (4/21/2014 22:01:47)

quote:

the only factors affected by stats in a battle is these 4

You do realize that those actually are the main factors of a battles flow towards a certain player?

Also, you do realize that I failed to mention just one thing? The Auxiliary damage. Which is self-explanetory.

If you mention skill scaling: that is not decisive of a stats usefulness, nor it is mentioned in your post. Meaning that it is not decisive.

And you do realize that Support actually does provide increased efficency? I have tackled into that earlier. Comparing the said stat to other stats with no evidence what so ever brings your argument to a complete null.

Post edited. Check your inbox for more information. ~Therril Oreb



Predator9657 -> RE: Buff for support (4/22/2014 10:24:56)

@Wootz; you are completely missing the point here!

What I'm proving is that relative to the other stats support is worth significantly less. What you're proving is that support has it's uses.

No one is denying the fact that support helps in battle. But why do I think that fairer balance requires buffs for support? Because if you compare the advantage that one point invested in support gives in battle to the advantage that one point invested in any other stat, you will find that it is unfairly biased against support i.e. support gives a smaller advantage in battle than the other stats.

That is the general point being made here, and it can be proven both mathematically as well as via experience in the battlefield (proof's have been provided in previous posts). Therefore we have sufficient evidence to accept this statement.

If you agree, then it is only logical to reach the conclusion that support deserves to receive the necessary buffs required for it to be roughly equal in value with the other stats (which is the whole purpose of this thread).

On the other hand, if you disagree, you must provide sufficient valid evidence to refute our statement.



The berserker killer -> RE: Buff for support (4/22/2014 16:41:40)

My problem is that support is supposed to be the factor that bears the weight of something or keeps it upright in order for you to be able to endure severe stress or damage. In this case, our armor. I love your suggestions and I think it should go as far that without support, your armor begins to fall apart and your defense and resistance slowly deteriorate according to your armor points over the course of several rounds.

Quick example: I'm Ghost God (Blood Mage with 18 support. Armor points: 0 on defense, 120 on resistance)

For the first 3 turns my armor will stay in tact, it will be perfectly fine but after 3 turns my Chest Plate falls off and reveals the chest plate of the Basic Armor, causing -40 res (1/3rd of my Armor points). After 5 turns the armor on my arms and my shoulders falls off, exposing the Basic armors upper body and causing -80 res (2/3rd of my Armor Points). After 7 turns the Basic Armor is completely exposed causing-120 resistance (all of my Armor points) and making it remove the active and passive cores off my armor.

As my support increases, so does my Armor durability.

^Support should not be such a weak stat. It should, in fact be the most important. You shouldn't begin to use insane attacks that put heavy stress on your armor such as Bunker, Supercharge, or even Massacre without support. And, if you do use these moves, then all of your armor should fall apart immediately.

--Ghost God--



GearzHeadz -> RE: Buff for support (4/22/2014 21:44:02)

What bothers me so much about so report right is that the more you have, the slower you gain rage.



Seteriel -> RE: Buff for support (4/23/2014 5:13:07)

@ opening post
Generally supporting the ideas, just picking one to back it up some more, as it really bugs me:
quote:

First turn should be decided purely on support (no luck involved unless both players have same support)

Yea. What i experience often in 2v2: the players with the highest support go second and thrid, or second and fourth (if there even are 2 players with average-to-high support ^^ ) with the no-support players going first and third. Even if all are same lvl. I haven't made notes, but roughly estimating i'd say it is about 40-45%
The only basic/main exception is: if the 2 average-to-high support players are in the same team, then they go first and third, constant.

Reducing the chance (or in this case: danger) to get stunned should also go back to support.

More ideas:
- remove the block chance from dex and give it to support - or make it a 25:75 mix of dex:support
- remove the deflect chance from tech and give it to support - or make it a 25:75 mix of tech:support
-> players relying on dex for hitting keep their hit chance, gun/aux keep their hit chance, skills are unaffected, but support and 5-focus receive a significant buff (in case of the "25:75 mix" all players receive a nerf, but support and 5-focus coming out of it at a better stand)


@ The berserker killer
This is buffing support at the expense of the complete item categorie armor = builds with high starting damage would completely kill the opponents armor within 2-4 turns (or just 1 turn in 2v2, if 2 bunker mercs for example).
In my opinion, support is not the ability to wear and hold together your armor. Support is all the small gadgets you have:
- Meteor core on your primary ? you call your support to let it rain
- Artillery/Surgical Strike are also 2 very good examples where i think "support" is what you rely on
To explain it with words: support is the players supply line - ammo for the guns, communication for help. If ED was "big man war" game, the player would not be an idividual soldier, but more of a batallion or squad or such and as such relying on supplies, "support" from the HQ and the artilery that lingers far behind the front line.
However, making it so that you can only use your gun 1 time (unless more support "to get more ammo" for the second shot or significant more support for extended shooting) or that you can't use your skills because there is not enough support->supply/communication would be a tiny bit rough [:)]



Xendran -> RE: Buff for support (4/23/2014 6:34:22)

Honestly, the stats don't even make sense. Dexterity in no way helps your physical defense in reality, and increasing your agility by having a smaller body or frame would decrease your defensive potential by having less fat and muscle padding, as well as limiting the weight of armor you can be carrying.

Stats dont have to be "realistic" but at the very least they should make sense. Dexterity in games is almost always speed, accuracy, criticals, dodges and counters. Being fast gives you the speed necessary to be crafty and dodge your opponent while striking their weak points with smaller weapons, in exchange for being less effective on non-criticals. Physical defence is usually determined either by Strength, or a stat like Vigor/Endurance.



lionblades -> RE: Buff for support (4/26/2014 12:38:29)

I've come back from a break but yeah str is way more powerful than support. Sometimes a str user with 17-20 supp will rage faster than 5 focus support which is messed up (and I don't mean luck). I really think support needs a buff like option 1 more aux dmg.



GearzHeadz -> RE: Buff for support (5/23/2014 0:47:24)

Wish it affected rage.



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