RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (Full Version)

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Rayen -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/29/2015 15:37:01)

@Meloette. That depends on what exactly a fleshweaver is. Because we don't really know at this point.

I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that Roirr is a monster though, yes? So if fleshweaving is, and only is, what Roirr is and does...then yes, choosing the path of a Fleshweaver would make one a monster.



Dragonman -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/29/2015 15:41:13)

Personally, I don't like it, and from we know right now, it would be very out of character for the hero to choose to be a Fleshweaver.

I also don't like that it locks out a DC class.

However, I recognize that nobody will change my mind (at least on the DC class part), and I will change nobody else's mind. I just finally felt like I should weigh in.



monstervet -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/29/2015 15:54:10)

@Meloette Wells

This is what Tomix said would be required of us for fleshweaver:
quote:

If you'd have to devour Aegis in order to be able to unlock the Fleshweaver class, would you do it?
This is a serious question.
I can make a Fleshweaver class in the future, but you'd have to absorb your only one soulally to unlock it.


I dont know about you but if we use the general definition of the word "devour" we come to the conclusion that you knowingly and willingly ate Aegis in a ravenous manner, personally that sounds "evil" to me.

Now we are told we wont "murder" Aegis directly, dont know or understand what that entails, but it sounds very dubious.

@VJ
quote:

though later on I can see people(not saying any of you) starting cry about how they can't do this or that and want to have access to it all even with the warning given them.

though I must say to be honest I don't think it should be able to be undone though as it cheapens everything and the player won't have to worry about the consequences of their choice even if it is only able to be undone once.


I agree wholeheartedly with that.

Perhaps i see things in black in white, but thats just me, there are some cases where you got some middle ground, like a poor man stealing bread for his family, but this doesnt seem to fall into that category.

Back to the class discussion, would ice/evil be the best elements? Ice/Darkness?
Would it be DA only?



Shadows Morgenstern -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/29/2015 16:05:39)

My opinions on this are more or less:

quote:

Yeah... I wouldn't want to become a fleshweaver. You need to devour your soulally, think about the ramifications of that for a moment. That is a being bound to your soul, just shy of being a PART OF YOU. And you just devoured and destroyed it. You're basically tearing your soul apart at that point, and DESTROYING, not killing, but outright annihilating a being that trusts and loves you like family.

That's horrific. That's basically what Valtrith did to Serenity, only you're doing it to your best friend.

Add to it the fact that Roirr is doing this, and the way Vaal reacted, it's likely what he did was unnatural in the extreme and probably violates several laws of nature. It may even be some sort of Forbidden magic, and I wouldn't touch that stuff with a 50 foot pole. The name itself sends shivers down my spine and makes me think that it's something WRONG on many, many levels, and it's not something you WANT to become, that it's something that twists the natural order BY EXISTING.

TL;DR, Fleshweaver is less something that should be a class and more an Eldritch Abomination given humanoid form in Roirr. There are some things the player simply should not and will not have access to. This being one of those things.


Everything Raylas said earlier in the thread.



Mystical Warrior -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/29/2015 21:59:59)

quote:

I suppose the problem is that we can't really know that at this stage. Tomix is in the unique position where he can craft the lore/mechanics of fleshweaving around the implementation of a FW class. In other words, if the green light is given, he can make up whatever he wants about FW'ing to make it work storyline-wise and option-wise, without it being murder or anything.


Again, its almost impossible to make Fleshweaver canon storywise without actually "killing/murdering/devouring" Aegis, if we also take a loot at one quote of Tomix:

quote:

If you'd have to devour Aegis in order to be able to unlock the Fleshweaver class, would you do it?
This is a serious question.
I can make a Fleshweaver class in the future, but you'd have to absorb your only one soulally to unlock it.


It kinda implies that our character only gets one soul ally, so meaning we might not be getting any other else. The only way for the staff to make it possible to make the death of Aegis canon storywise completely is if the staff gave a scenario which "Let him die" or "Be consumed to be a FW" and ALSO gave our character another Soul Ally to be used with the SW and MSW in-case we do choose to let Aegis die without being used for FW.

IMHO, doing that kind of thing just kinda cheapens Aegis by alot since he pretty much became a fodder NPC if the staff can just give us a replacement as simple as that. It may make the death of Aegis acceptable but to tell the truth, I don't like that either since it'll just be a cheap way to justify Aegis' death.



W.A.R.Z. -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/29/2015 22:25:21)

What if Roirr turns Aegis into a sphere of energy and you think he's going to die so you have a choice of "eat Aegis before Roirr" or "fight to make sure that you can peacefully let Aegis go and let him rest in peace", but if you don't eat him a deus ex machina comes around and he ends up living? (Maybe Vaal overtakes Roirr and reverses what he did to Aegis?)



Mordred -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/29/2015 22:26:34)

Or maybe it's just a straight-up choice to devour Aegis, without a weird scenario that would otherwise kill him. Because if he died, that similarly lock out SW and CW.



Chaoshaper -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/29/2015 22:28:41)

What if its the situation WARZ suggested but its either devour Aegis before Riorr or hope you can beat the ever-living Murk out of Riorr in hopes that you can stop him in time (Which we obviously do)



monstervet -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/30/2015 3:36:13)

@Christophisis

yeah i know its choice based, im just annoyed that people will have a chance to UNDO there choice, it weakens the meaning of the word choice.
Oppps i drove of a cliff, luckily i have one chance to undo it.
It will make sense in DF, i know, but it still makes the repercussion less significant.

Just an FYI at some point you may find out that a cake can be.......too sweet, you may eventually learn the old saying is true, too much of a good thing is.......too much of a good thing (or it can make you sick or something).
Also taste is a bit personal, i ve said it a couple times, Fleshweaver isnt my cup of tea, or coffee or generally any manner of caffeinated drink, it just isnt, personally i dont like it.

I understand that others do enjoy it, and may find it sweet, but i view it as bitter, perhaps someday i'll view it as bittersweet, but for now my opinion is unchanged.

people will always debate about these issues, if it gets made or doesnt people will still argue on whether it is a good or bad idea.

So why dont you element lock Fleshweaver as Bacon/Evil? Its the closest youll get to flesh you know, bacon.
what would it look like?
would you look monsterous or normalish?
would you have "claws" or Spirit-Loom like things, that change color depending on weapon element or would you equip weapons like normal classes?
Will it have male/female forms?
I have a feeling it will be a flashy class, or maybe a fleshy class?



VJ -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/30/2015 8:47:18)

@ W.A.R.Z
if that was part of the quest chain it would then be a "FORCED" choice and lose our friend and only soulally which means many of us WILL NOT finish the quest chain and do you really think Tomix or the others would EVER do that?

I am assuming that you would make it as part of the current quest and going after Rorr yes?

I think not.



Meloette Wells -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/30/2015 8:53:16)

I personally like that their is one undo.

Cause some players could make the choice absent mindedly, and come to realize "I made a grave mistake"

The one undo also keeps the FW haters from being like, "HA! You shouldn't have absorbed Aegis in the first place, monster."



VJ -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/30/2015 8:59:07)

Wells it has nothing to do with hatter at all it just cheapens the murder of their soulally and it should never be undone once someone murders their soulally they shouldn't have the right to undo it and would teach the player NOT to do something 'absent mindedly" as there are consequences for their actions.




soulus42 -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/30/2015 10:11:41)

As people are saying we are murdering our soulally, didn't Tomix say that we aren't "murdering" Aegis within the context?



Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/30/2015 10:36:44)

^Yes. But that doesn't suit some peoples' preconceived notions about this class so they ignore it or say he's wrong. About his story. That he created/is creating. Yeah. Granted, it's still an ambiguous statement, as an act can be immoral even if it's not murder, and saying that it's not murder within the context would seem to imply that it would be considered murder in other situations. But still, Tomix said that for a reason; clearly we're not going to forcefully eat Aegis against his will, at the very least.

(Please note I'm not talking about everyone who is still against it, just those who are doing that.)



Alm Nullamors -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/30/2015 12:54:03)

So we'll have one chance to undo it? Good, that means those like me, still on the fence, can give the class a test run and then turn back to normal if we decide that we'd rather have Aegis. Those who want to keep the class can then keep it and those that don't want it at all can spare Aegis and move on. Everybody wins.



WornDogma -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/30/2015 13:08:50)

Though I still don't like the idea of the hero fleshweaving,DragonFable is a singleplayer game and if the staff decides that it would be a good addition than I have no reason to be disappointed.The hero would still be chillin' with Aegis for people don't eat him.People who do could enjoy the implications that follow.Being able to undo the choice once seems fine since there would be a reason in lore.


To people who feel there isn't harsh enough consequence for devouring you soul ally think about. If it would result in a permanent soulsynch with the hero being dominant but Aegis is deep within the mind,Fleshweavers would have to deal with the ultimate torment.They would be able to hear Aegis judge their fashion sense(Did you guys see who stylish he was when he was alive.Coordination was on point.

Every time the equip a cape they could hear the faintest whisper saying "I can't believe I thought it would be worth it to get devoured by this.... Fashion Disaster.That cape contrasts horribly with that shade of X.Is it to late to find a new soul-ally.Someone like Hugo,He knows how to accessorize."



VJ -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/30/2015 13:09:11)

Not saying he is wrong but he did use the term 'Devour' and someone already covered that aspect of the conversation.

though as Sakurai the Cursed said in all other context however it IS murder
Until we actually know what he means the player can take it anyway we see fit.

for those of us that it is this way it is murder while for others it isn't.

that's all there is to it.

so unless he flat out says one way or another it is murder for us and not for others.



soulus42 -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/30/2015 16:57:23)

I have a little theory, the basis being on that we can reverse this once and that fleshweavers use flesh threads.

My theory is this. Fleshweaving is only possible when you bind a spirit that can create soul threads to flesh. In doing so, soul threads can no longer be made however a different type of thread can, flesh threads. This binding could potentially mean that forming a bond with another soul ally is no longer possible or you can no longer make use of soul threads, which would explain why you would no longer be able to use the other weaving schools.

As for reversing this binding, possibly through someone's help, a ritual or maybe even strength of will alone, would be by separation of spirit and flesh. The problem with that however might be that, over time, spirit and flesh become so closely intertwined that separation is no longer possible. Essentially you would end up tearing the spirit from flesh, parts would still remain. If there is enough of the spirit taken out, it would be able to retain who it was, flesh threads can no longer be made and soul threads could be used again. Should you do this to the spirit again, you would not be able to reverse it. There would not be enough of the spirit to retain who it was. That would be my guess on what Tomix meant by we aren't murdering Aegis within context.



Edorath -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/30/2015 17:40:17)

My guess is that Fleshweavers are basically Soul Eaters, and to unlock the full powers of a Flesh Eater, one must devour a soul, or a soulally, to assimilate it's powers, like Roirr did with Vaal's soulally, and must feed up on souls to keep on living, as shown with Roirr's trap. So, Flesh Weavers use both body and souls as medium for their Forbidden Magic probably, and use souls to sustain themselves, but that triggers an irreversible change (You become a Murk).

As for us being able to un-devour Aegis, maybe the process greatly degrades the soul. As shown with Vaal, strong souls can survive being eaten, but the separating process might probably be too strong for a soul to survive it twice.



GreenGuy23 -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/30/2015 17:47:20)

Or maybe the undoing of the decision is non-canonical...? Also, can someone quote where it was said that it would be undo-able? I missed that one.



soulus42 -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/30/2015 17:57:37)

quote:

All I can say, within the context, you won't be "murdering" Aegis.

I have finally caught up with the discussion, and it is clear that most would like the class.
I'll bring it up again with Geo, and if she gives the class a green light, it will be an optional class.
If you won't like if or won't like the repercussions of it, it WILL be reversible... once.
How, you ask?
I cannot reveal.


Posted by Tomix on page 24 of this thread.



GreenGuy23 -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/30/2015 18:00:58)

Aaah, okay. Haven't checked on this thread in a while :P glad to know that. Now we should all PRAY that geo allows it as a side project for the team [:)]! But I still stand by my thought that it might be non-canon.



Christophoses -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/30/2015 22:18:07)

Locking a major class like Fleshweaver to a certain element is a VERY BAD idea. I don't want a class that's only useful in certain situations, and I'm sure many other people agree with me. Locking a Fleshweaver to a specific element is like poking a sleeping tiger with a stick. Once it wakes up your in trouble.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

@GreenGuy23

It was confirmed by Tomix at least 4 times that it will be cannon. I don't think he plans on going back on what he said.



Chaoshaper -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/30/2015 22:23:54)

What are the reasons why the skills for FW be/not be element locked? I feel like the huge nukes that require you to use your body/your Soul Ally's energy should be locked to Ice/Bacon damage. But as for the rest, i don't see a reason as to why they should be element locked.



Ash -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/30/2015 22:27:21)

quote:

Locking a major class like Fleshweaver to a certain element is a VERY BAD idea. I don't want a class that's only useful in certain situations, and I'm sure many other people agree with me. Locking a Fleshweaver to a specific element is like poking a sleeping tiger with a stick. Once it wakes up your in trouble.

Why? It's not a major class, it's a side optional class. If Tomix wants it locked to ice because you devoured someone attuned to ice then it'll be locked to ice. There's no rule that says every class has to be omni elemental.



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