RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (Full Version)

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W.A.R.Z. -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/30/2015 22:35:17)

Being locked to Bacon/Evil makes sense because Bacon=Flesh and you did eat Aegis. (Which would be considered evil) But just because Aegis is defensive and uses ice doesn't meant that FW will reflect that. For example: eating hot sauce doesn't make you a pyromancer, eating ice cream doesn't make you a cryomancer, and eating cabbage doesn't make you a geomancer. (Correct me if I'm wrong about what type of -mancer is related to plants) ...druuuid? >.> <.< ~Ash When we eat Aegis he would just be food and energy to us.

To sum it up, when you use SW your spirits would synchronize and you would take on each others traits, but when you would use FW you just consume him and use him as energy.



Chaoshaper -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/30/2015 22:38:13)

Actually it would be more like trying to fill a diesel engine with non-diesel gas, you have to change the engine if you want to use that fuel. Besides, food isnt magically charged with energy from the Elemental Spirit plane.

Is FW gonna be defensive to take after Aegis or is it going to be offensive?



Mystical Warrior -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/30/2015 22:54:13)

quote:

Locking a major class like Fleshweaver to a certain element is a VERY BAD idea. I don't want a class that's only useful in certain situations, and I'm sure many other people agree with me. Locking a Fleshweaver to a specific element is like poking a sleeping tiger with a stick. Once it wakes up your in trouble.

How will it become a situational class? Even if all skills are locked to Ice, its not like all monsters have Ice resistance anyway. The only time you won't be using the class is if the questline has lots of monsters attuned to ice and has resistance to it. I also agree on what Ash said that not all classes should be omni-elemental, and if we want the class closer to canon then it will make alot more sense to be at least attuned to Ice element if not being Defensive one also.



time sage -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/31/2015 0:32:06)

I don't like where this is going.... FW getting locked to ice? I don't like that idea at all.. Souls/Master Soul weaver used Ageis and their element was not locked to ice...



mahasamatman -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/31/2015 0:59:26)

FW as a corrupt ice class is redundant. we have icebound revenant (which isn't very good, but still).



Deviance -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/31/2015 1:19:57)

Here's a couple fun ideas:

1. If Fleshweaver is to be a class, I would be intrigued if there was a certain DoT affect on us. Binding to Aegis, or forcing a consumtion, would likely function like Soulweaver's Synchronization. We don't synchronize all the time because of the rammifications of having such power. So, while Fleshweaver could be powerful, a Dot is applied to our health so that each turn we get weaker and weaker using the class, with a decent, but not good, heal. It would be an intriguing way to make the class different.

2. What if we don't consume Aegis in a scenario. A way the class could be cool is if we utilize both attack rows. The left side has mediocre, weaving like abilities, but the other side is generally locked. It is only when you consume Aegis, in one of the attack buttons, would you be able to use the lcoked skills set for about 4 or so turns. Think Time Killer. Of course, the problem would be how to justify our constant consumtion of Aegis, and this wouldn't actually work with the whole " consume Aegis once and you can only turn back once" discussion, which is the closest to what is going to likely happen. So basically, ignore this idea unless you fancy it.

3. I've said this in a previous comment, but i'll reiterate. FW would actually be a defensive class with a shield because that is Aegis' nature and we only take on the powers of what we consume. Of course, Aegis did have powerful attacks, so he likely is not completely defensive. So perhaps a more balanced/mixed class?

4. We are more prone to paralyzation or missing becaue Aegis is trying to fight back and sometimes suceeds in denying us his power.

One this bothers me. Its called FLESHweaver, and it seems that all the information we have on it is about Roirr, but Roirr is NOT a good example. He's a special case. We could examine just exactly what FW means by comparing it to SW. SW weaves with a soul to produce soul threads and eventually clothes that are very durable and change color depending on your mood. They aren't exactly meant for fighting at all. Also, a common this with CW and Soulsmith is that they work together with a spirit. FW, if it works similarly, would be probably using a soul, not working with a soul, to produce such threads/materials/etc. its more like the perversion of the relationship to reap the powers of the spirit. It means no regard for the spirit's well being. Genereally, spirits basically live forever unless banished, perhaps the spirit is drained over time. So my last nice idea...

5. A time limit on the class. You have X amount of moves to destroy your enemy or you get completely drained and die. Seems like a nice touch. OR, the class costs huge amounts of mana and there is no mana regen. If you hit 0 mana, you die.



Zork Knight -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/31/2015 1:32:11)

@Deviance: 1, 4 and 5 would cripple a class that costs access to two other classes, a guest and an item crafting mechanic. Which would be extremely unfair.



Deviance -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/31/2015 2:15:47)

True...

So I was looking through the class page in the forums and I found a Fleshweaver link so naturally, Im going to use it for reference. It seems like it is just a copy of what Tomix had planned for Chaosweaver (Tbh, I am WAYYYY more excited for CW, especially if it looks taht beautiful. I have 1800 DCs just waiting for the time Tomix will have time for CW). HOwever, what makes it difficult to compare is that its ROIRR, and also a bit of Vaal, so the power is over the roof. There is no mana cost and nearly 300% damage, features we are almost certainly NOT getting. Tho, a no mana cost feature would be cool if each attack just took a tiny bit of health instead (its not VERY crippling, and it could be countered by a heal). As for what kinds of skills we'll see, I think it will just be the usual, except perhaps Aegis' skill set mixed in with a couple of SW's.



Rayen -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/31/2015 2:22:23)

@Zork. It's not about what's fair or unfair. It's about what makes sense. Since FW would be canon if implemented losing access to "two other classes, a guest and an item crafting mechanic" would simply be a consequence, not a measure of how strong FW would need to be. There will NEVER be a class as strong or stronger than two classes and a guest combined (other than DmK, perhaps, but that's...broken). The whole point of losing these things is that it's a necessary requirement of becoming a FW.

As for locking FW to ice...I personally really love elementally-locked classes/skills. KAA is great in that regard, Paladin and Icebound Revenant likewise. I wish that Pyro was a bit more fire-locked, because it thematically makes little sense to be dealing ice damage. The difference between SW and FW in terms of elemental locking is that as a FW we would be physically biased to using a single element, because Aegis's spirit has been absorbed by our bodies (I'm guessing), whereas SW just manipulates pure soulthreads.



monstervet -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/31/2015 3:06:30)

You know what they say, you are what you eat...hehe.
So i guess Aegis is made out of Bacon and ice.

Time will tell all, who knows what will happen if it gets released, there may be some more moral discussion, which will slow down in time, and eventually if found useful may be considered an alternative for warmongers, otherwise......who knows, its still too early to tell.

Until then riddle me this, how do you devour something and make it disappear without murdering it?

Its umm...for a science class.......project...thing....paper....thesis...presentation.

Is the answer bacon? Cause i would not be surprised if it was.

I think i suggested fleshweaver being bacon locked (did i? correct me if im wrong lightriftwalker122 said ice/evil or ice/darkness, VJ said dark/evil or dark/ice and i said Bacon/evil) i mainly said it becuase yes its the closest element that sounds similar to flesh and most people dont want to call it an "evil" for whatever reason (if it turns out to be an evil class, it'll be an evil class).

But i guess it'll be up to tomix and the staff, im guessing itll be tier 3?



Rayen -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/31/2015 4:47:57)

@monstervet. Pretty sure it'd have to be T3, what with it locking out Master Soulweaver and CW, which are/will be T3 classes.

quote:

Until then riddle me this, how do you devour something and make it disappear without murdering it?

Just as a reference, the definition of murder (from some legal interpretation here) is "The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse." Along the same themes, other dictionaries define it as being "unlawful premeditated killing".

So...the answer to your riddle is:
1. in any way that doesn't involve premeditation (such as an accident or spur-of-the-moment)
2. with a good reason (with Aegis's consent or to save someone either in the spur-of-the-moment or many people in the future through the gained power)
3. in some way that doesn't actually 'kill' Aegis (such as if the only thing 'devoured' is his body, and his soul remains completely intact as a part of us, in which case we'd potentially have murdered his 'body', but not him), or
4. in some 'lawful' way...which I don't think will happen because...I doubt there would be any SW officials who would be very accepting of Fleshweaving, and SW's would probably be the most capable of judging such a decision.

Those are the only ways I can currently think of that (by definition) it wouldn't be considered murder...but they give room for a LOT of situations. If Tomix says it won't be murder...it would be VERY easy to come up with a situation in which it isn't, for those who choose that path (and if it's added at all, though hopefully it won't).

Hope that helps convince you that it won't be murder, because I trust Tomix enough to make it work if it does get the green light (even though I'll be steering wellllllll clear of the option myself).



WornDogma -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/31/2015 10:11:29)

I think the reason soulweaver isn't locked to ice is because were using Aegis's powers to weave soulthreads through spirit looms,instead of using his devoured essence to make fleshthreads.I don't see why the class being defensive or element locked would be a problem.Aegis as a guest have a skill that lowers ice resistance,their are multiple classes in the game if a certain quest has monsters with 50+ resistance.


Also if the class is gained by Aegis giving his being to save you acting as your aegis,Having that support being reflected in the class that results makes sense to me.


Part of me wishes that fleshweaver were just a normal school of weaving and that someone(not the hero) could master them all.Imagine if cysero mastered all weaving schools,He could soulweave cloth with the help of a bacon spirit,embroider some zesty cheese with a corrupted spirit of gouda,Soulsmith a lynchpin nitroglycerin sponge hammer,and fuse it all together into a hamster with fleshweaving.


End result: Lore's first HamKnight,A tier 17 warrior of breakfast with enough power to take of six elemantal planes.



Zork Knight -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/31/2015 14:19:19)

@Rayen: It was stated that FW would be Tier 3 (with some extra stuff IIRC. Kinda like Guardian being above your average Tier 2 class). The only way to compensate those crippling effects would be giving it RIDICULOUS offensive power. Which would turn it into DoomKnight Part 2.



GreenGuy23 -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/31/2015 14:33:17)

quote:

Tho, a no mana cost feature would be cool if each attack just took a tiny bit of health instead


That would be pretty cool, and would make sense. Kinda like we're using our own flesh to weave what we're using to attack. I think that would be a cool thing to do. Only thing is that the class would require some extreme shields to counter enemies doing damage to you, as well as yourself.
Honestly though, I do hope that in the next part of the Vaaloir saga, we get the ability to read up/learn more about FleshWeaving, that way we can really understand what we're doing.



Chaoshaper -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/31/2015 14:48:20)

@Zork, thats entirely up to the staff. If they wanted to, they could make it a Tier 0 class, and chuckle as they watch everyone respond to the release. Tomix said for the class to exist, you would have to cancel out 3-4 classes (SW, MSW, CW, SS) and lose an ally. It was never supposed to be powerful enough to compensate, just immoral enough for people to have to give up all these things so that they could have it. In power, it should match SW in terms of strength, and whether or not it's element locked is up to the staff.

I'd like it to be a defensive class that centers around alternating between consuming mana for defenses and heals, and using health to damage/debuff the enemy.




Zork Knight -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/31/2015 15:41:11)

@Chaoshaper: SoulSmith is not going to be a class. It was confirmed that, should FleshWeaver be released, it'll be a Tier 3 class (don't remember if they said it'd have extra stuff or not).



Chaoshaper -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/31/2015 15:56:20)

Soulsmith is going to be a blacksmith extention, which i believe should be locked off, along with any Soul Smithed items, if you suddenly decide to devour your Spirit Ally. Have they confirmed that it would be Tier 3, or just that it would be released as the final Weaving class along with MSW, SW, CW, all three of which are confirmed to be Tier 3?



VJ -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/31/2015 20:17:23)

quote:

Locking a major class like Fleshweaver to a certain element is a VERY BAD idea. I don't want a class that's only useful in certain situations, and I'm sure many other people agree with me. Locking a Fleshweaver to a specific element is like poking a sleeping tiger with a stick. Once it wakes up your in trouble.


Actually it would be a good idea after all you are 'eating' your ally who is literately ICE element thus the class & its element should reflect that.


quote:

I'd like it to be a defensive class that centers around alternating between consuming mana for defenses and heals, and using health to damage/debuff the enemy.


I agree, i should be pure defensive based class with a sprinkle of offensive skills that use hp to use, the stronger the skill the more hp it consumes Like the Guardian & Death Knight eats up a massive amount of mana and both iirc are class 3 armors.

edit:
WARZ corrected me on the examples I used thus removed.
(again Thanks for the information)



W.A.R.Z. -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/31/2015 20:35:24)

@VJ Your examples for element-locked classes aren't really that good of examples.
Paladin only has 3 light locked skills and one good locked.
Necromancer doesn't even have any element locked skills.
Death Knight only has one locked skill and its evil, not darkness.



VJ -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/31/2015 20:45:21)

Oh yeah thats right it's their weapon base for the class that gives it the elements.. lol
been so use to using the DK's Complete set that I forgot that it was not element locked.
same with the Necro & Pally..

I stand corrected.

thank you for reminding me warz



Chaoshaper -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/31/2015 20:46:54)

There are no element locked classes, just certain element locked abilities (Guardian, Dragon Lord, Paladin, Pyro, Icebound, KAA). The thing about most these classes is that their abilities revolve around using a certain element, as in Pally getting buffs against darkness enemies (Who happen to have one common weakness, light) and debuffs that work well if the player is using a light based weapon. Same with Icebound and Pryo. KAA has powerful abilities to make up for it (DC class with really powerful hits) and Guardian and Dragon Lord have element locked abilities in order to make up for their strength (I'd say that base DL and Guardian are Tier 2+, labeled as tier 2 but able to complete with tier 3 in terms of all around power). I would prefer it if FW had its more powerful attacks element locked to elements that aren't commonly resisted (Evil, Bacon) while its defensive abilities are themed more Ice-y in order to keep some aspect of Aegis in the class.



W.A.R.Z. -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/31/2015 20:50:26)

No problem VJ!

As for the ice motif, what if it wasn't just regular ice, but something like frozen blood? It might be a bit gruesome, but I think it would fit in with the theme of FleshWeaving.



Chaoshaper -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/31/2015 20:53:27)

A red-purple-ish taint on an ability that would be shapped like an ice wall, possibly reusing a tainted version of Aegis' shield from his guest version? Maybe some slightly red mostly blue snowflakes in some ablities? An ability that debuffs the enemy's resistance to the element locked abilities for a couple of turns in case something does resist those elements?



VJ -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/31/2015 20:57:25)

@ Chasosshaper
I think the skills should be locked to what the element the soul ally is be it ice, fire, ect.

in this case our soul ally is ice and thus should be ice.
unless the team locks it with something else like ice/dark and thus should be those two elements

evil & good if I recall Ash saying are not elements but a state of mind then the fw should be dark if it was to have a second element.



W.A.R.Z. -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/31/2015 21:16:17)

Here are elements/sub-elements that, in my mind, apply to FW

Bacon - Closest element to Flesh
Disease - Organic microbes that harm your body
Energy - Body sends signals through nerves and brain with electricity
Fire - Body produces own heat, closest element is Fire
Metal - Blood contains iron, need other metals to survive, etc
Nature - Food for herbivores and omnivores
Poison - Non-organic things that harm your body
Water - Human body is mostly water
Wind - Air is used by lungs

Those would be things that go into FW, but locking it to evil would make sense, because you did eat your best friend, and feeling an evil state of mind when your using a power that you got from eating your best friend makes a lot of sense.



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