RE: A Guide To Wars (Full Version)

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crabpeople -> RE: A Guide To Wars (7/24/2015 13:30:30)

Testing fase is open: It's your time to shine my test subjects (muahahahaha).

Rules:
1-You must complete all your tests at the "F13th Full Moon" war.
2-Ultra Offensive Build. That's +38 damage from stats. (untrain and retrain stats if needed).
3-45 crit or higher but not the crit cap please.
4-You must use any of these weapons: Pandora/dark Pandora or Guardian blade/Ornate Guardian blade. The G. blades are the stable versions of course.
5-No guests and pets allowed.
6-No weapon specials. Any kind. No extra damage vs "X" type... dot specials... boost specials... Nothing.
7-No trinket specials. You can equip trinkets for the stats but don't use their skill if they have any.
8-You must play on the graphics settings that provides you the best fps performance (medium,low...).
9-The timer starts when you click the war mode (footwaves,s.run,catapult...) and stops when you press the "close" button when you finish the 50th wave. Only stop the timer once. And that is during the final run. So 1 start 1 finish for 50 waves.
10-Rare waves count as waves by themselves. That being said, please note somewhere the amount of rare waves you got in those 50 waves.
11-The way to deal with vs2 and vs3 battles varies deppending on the class you're using. That being said, the priorities will be the following:
-Vs 2: Clear the battle in 2 turns. That implies 2 nukes, a very stong mult (KAA,ACC) and a normal attack or Mult skill spam if you can ensure the win in 2 turns. Classes that cannot achieve 2 turn victories in a reliable way, will have to gamble with the mult skill doing crits.
-VS 3: Clear the battle in 3 turns. That's 3 nukes (a 180% move can be considered a nuke here), a very strong mult (KAA,ACC) and a normal attack for a 2t win, Mult skill spam if you can ensure the win in 3 turns or less. Classes that cannot achieve the 3 turn victory like the ones with only 1 nuke (the crit skill) have to rely on the mult skill crit gamble.
12-If your internet connection is going slowpoke mode increasing your loading times to 1 second or higher, please refrain from testing and try later.
13- Play your class at it's best. That means using the most efficient skills outside the crit and mult. Like the fastest skill (it might be the attack button) for the almost defeated mooks and a faster skill than the crit for the weakest ones (if the class has any of these).
Example: Using cyptic throw skill (the 275% move) for weak moobs and using mental assassination for the tanky ones.

-Supply grab/stolen catapult only rule: Avoid battles. Only 1 battle per wave. If you fail reset and try again.


Tips:
Please do some waves (3 or 4) before going into testing. Reasons are:
1-You'll know where are the "key" skills that you'll use.
2-You'll know where the UI buttons are. Like the close when u win a battle, the position of the warring mode you're going to do etc.
3-You will be able to test the other class skills.

How the testing goes:

Footwaves: 50 waves in a row.
Supply grab: 3 waves in a row. Repeat 4 more times for a total of 5.
Stolen catapult: 1 wave only per run. Repeat 4 more times for a total of 5.

Tests needed to complete

Footwaves:
Tier 2: N/A
Tier3: RW, Chronomancer, Chronocorrupter, ChronoZ
Tier4: DMK
Supply grab: DMK
Stolen Catapult: DMK



Hopeful Guy -> RE: A Guide To Wars (7/24/2015 14:52:26)

Should I do DmK?

I have 271 DEX, 227 LUK and 34 Crit%. All told, that is +38 damage and 45% Crit exactly. Will edit in tests for Chronomancer, Cryptic and DmK.

Cryptic: 1st time: 57.4 sec (that smashes everything else, probably because I managed to kill everything first time, and Throw and Wild have ridiculously fast animations).
2nd time: 1min, 9.4 sec (bit slower, had a couple of tanky monsters to use Assassination on)
3rd time: 56.7 sec (wow, got two waves with no multi mobs where throw pwned, and on the other wave, I killed everything first turn except one)
4th time: 1min, 1.2 sec (sort of in the middle...)
5th time: 1 min, 0.8 sec (middle again).
Average: 1 min, 1.1 sec.

Cryptic clearly is way better than anything you tested so far, but that is because the animations are unbelievably quick on Throw and Wild, and the passive helps get high Crit chance (although +5 Crit isn't much).

Chronomancer: 1st time: 1min, 19.8sec (Record and Blade of Meanwhile both kill in one turn, Record is faster though).
2nd time: 1 min 25.7 sec.
3rd time: 1 min 16.3 sec.
4th time: 1 min 20.7 sec.
5th time: 1 min, 29.3 sec.
Average: 1 min, 22.4 sec.

Well, that is still all right, but slower than Cryptic, DK, IBR, EPKL and Guardian.

DmK: 1st time: 1 min 7 sec exact
2nd time: 1 min 2.3 sec
3rd time: 1 min 3.4 sec
4th time: 59.8 sec
5th time: 1 min 6 sec
Average: 1 min 3.7 sec.

Slightly worse than Cryptic. DmK's attack and Rite both have slightly longer animations than Cryptic's skills, and Blast, which might be slightly faster, can't be used because I would run out of MP if I used it (since Serenity before the Storm doesn't auto heal).



crabpeople -> RE: A Guide To Wars (7/24/2015 16:34:19)

Yeh those timings are really fast. I expected cryptic to be faster than dk anyways. because as you said throw and mult are really fast.

You can take care of DMK. If you do so I would appreciate you to run all 3 tests (the other 2 are faster than footwaves tests).

Edit: Just for "calibration" purposes. Can you do a test of any class I did and tell me the timings you got? I just want to see how similar they are. I know it's extra work but it will give more credibility to your results.

Edit 2: I'll add your results once you're done.

About DMK: DMK doesn't need damage stats so what about going for blast and then healing after every wave (you have to stop the timer). The idea is to see much much faster it goes.



Azan -> RE: A Guide To Wars (7/24/2015 16:45:29)

quote:

If you're saying that beacuse of your +-10 days without internet. It's fine. I'm not going to finish the guide in that time . I can leave the DMK to someone else but you'll do the RW part. Btw you still working on the warmonger speech?

Okay, can do the RW part. And yes, still working on that! Or you could rather say I'm working on getting the optimal person for that!



Hopeful Guy -> RE: A Guide To Wars (7/24/2015 17:04:28)

Calibration: DK gave me an average result of 1 min, 16.3 sec, which is fairly close to your calculated one. My results do seem faster than yours, though, in general.



Caststarter -> RE: A Guide To Wars (7/24/2015 17:13:28)

...May I just comment that you are heavily forgetting the lower level war community? Realistically, not everyone is around level 70-80 or maybe even in the 60s(I participated in what? Thirties or forties?) so they are not exactly going to have that high of a crit nor that amount of stat points from both training and equipment. I also notice a bipolar view of luck, I believe? You want others to have a static weapon for consistency yet gamble in multi battles? But then say only one war to keep things consistent? Okay, everything else is there for consistency but one of the prime rules of testing anything is to keep everything at a point of consistency. Leaving multi battles to chance are NOT consistent. I would recommend testing a class where you face multi-battles, you are SURE the skill is powerful enough to kill the enemies in a turn or especially they have more than one multi resulting in a two turn kill for 1v3 battles. 1v2 though you may want to just play it safe and go for the definite two-turn(I am speaking from experience.).This is especially apparent when you consider lower levels. Heck, if you get around the XP cap, you will have to switch to another character if you have one where the odds are they are not exactly what you would call "high leveled". The methods of a low-level character is different from the likes of a mid-level character which is different from the likes of a high-level character. I experienced all THREE of these stages to know.

Why medium as well? Why not low for optimal performance? These are things to consider. Everything should be set in such a way for optimal performance for the player.

Overall, you seem to be very reliant on getting criticals which is not exactly a good idea for lower levels. I am sure there are classes that are much better when they are getting criticals but start to falter real fast when they do not. Which I am sure you noticed with classes such as Deathknight, Paladin, and Necromancer for obvious examples.

I will not delve further, though these I sort of noticed when I was looking at this.

By the way, you automatically heal between waves...



Hopeful Guy -> RE: A Guide To Wars (7/24/2015 17:34:08)

Caststarter: Not at Serenity before the Storm, for whatever reason. It's a bit strange.

Also, the point you make is very valid. Yes, a level 80 analysis is all well and good, but it's not relevant to nearly all of the community. Unfortunately, it is difficult to compare lower and medium level characters because not everyone has them, but what we could try is to just use lower level stats and equips and see what happens.

About your point about inconsistency in the multi battles: that's also true. What does counter-balance that, however, is that 15 tests are done in total and a mean is obtained, so whether skills crit or not, it should all average out. The two-turn kill method is far more reliable at lower levels but at high levels, trying for Crit is probably higher risk but higher reward.

I'm also going to note that while a section based on numbers is fine, you MUST have something else that is relevant included. Otherwise, the guide merits being declined under this:
quote:

5. Making a guide about Equipment Comparison or Battle Strategy. Since we now have the wonderful DragonFable Equipment Comparison Forum and Dragonfable Strategy Forum, please use those for any and all of your needs on those subjects!


The History is nice but can be found in Azan's plot synopsis, the Spoils of War can be found easily in the Pedia and the Tips is good, but I wouldn't say that is enough to make a guide. The rest is not really a guide but just background info. You need more!



crabpeople -> RE: A Guide To Wars (7/24/2015 17:58:43)

quote:

Calibration: DK gave me an average result of 1 min, 16.3 sec, which is fairly close to your calculated one. My results do seem faster than yours, though, in general.

That's probably because your internet connections is faster than mine. The skill factor... I won't give you more than 2 seocnds on that. I mean sometimes I had loading screens of almost 1 second. that takes it's toll in 3 waves (6 laoding screens). So I might add something like extra 3 seconds on all your tests to make it more fitting with my timings.

@Caststarter
quote:

...May I just comment that you are heavily forgetting the lower level war community? Realistically, not everyone is around level 70-80 or maybe even in the 60s(I participated in what? Thirties or forties?) so they are not exactly going to have that high of a crit nor that amount of stat points from both training and equipment


That's why there are 2 builds. Offensive which pretty much anyone at any level can reach and Ultra offensive that can only be reached by high level players (mb low people with a maxed doom/destiny weapon can reach somethign similar). Think that monsters hp scales per level so those % won't move that much.
Lower level players or high players with suboptimal gear/ stat builds are restricted to the use of powerful classes like DK. While it's unthinkable for them to use t2 classes like dragonslayer,ninja...

quote:

I also notice a bipolar view of luck, I believe? You want others to have a static weapon for consistency yet gamble in multi battles? But then say only one war to keep things consistent? Okay, everything else is there for consistency but one of the prime rules of testing anything is to keep everything at a point of consistency.

It's hard to have consistency at mult battles. The animation times of the enemies you find can differ a lot. There's also the chance of finding those mult battles. That's why there's a total of 15 waves. To have a bit of everything (an even with 15, rng smiles or hates you). The crit gamble is not as inconsistent as you might think, because sometimes works in your favor and others it doesn't. The key factor is the amount of waves you do to prove this consistency in form of an average.
There's also classes like KAA and ACC that doesn't even need to gamble. they just kill.

quote:

I would recommend testing a class where you face multi-battles, you are SURE the skill is powerful enough to kill the enemies in a turn or especially they have more than one multi resulting in a two turn kill for 1v3 battles. 1v2 though you may want to just play it safe and go for the definite two-turn(I am speaking from experience.)


Then that just leaves us with a very few classes that probably non-DA players won't have limiting the usefulness of this guide. About the 2 turn for the 2 monsters strategy. I thought about it but I decided to go for the crit gamble (1 turn or 2 or 3 turns if nothing dies) because some classes have only 1 good solo skill (the crit) and are left with really low damage after that. Other classes can spam mult skills so those do not care if they crit or not.

quote:

you will have to switch to another character if you have one where the odds are they are not exactly what you would call "high leveled". The methods of a low-level character is different from the likes of a mid-level character which is different from the likes of a high-level character. I experienced all THREE of these stages to know.

I'm aware of all of this. Seriosuly. But the tests are for lv80 standards to see what class is faster. Simply as that. Not to see in what "momentum" a class is faster than other. I still have to do lots of things about this guide and mentions to mid-low strategies will be included. I'm even thinking about the non-DA players which are probably the majority so cut me some slack ok?

quote:

Why medium as well? Why not low for optimal performance? These are things to consider. Everything should be set in such a way for optimal performance for the player.

Because mid looks OK and performs well with most computers... I guess... Else avoid the flashy classes like AoT... I don't know about you but low graphcis looks horrible to me. It's not about finding the fastest and disregard everything else. The slightly better performance you may get is not worth if you quit after 5 waves because your eyes are bleeding.

I asked about it while I was doing a the necro guide. The results were "do a good guide for everyone that helps them being more efficient in wars" not "count every second of every skill and find the ultiamte warring class + setup". Just no. The point of the guide is to have variety. If the UOB builds are being used for the tests is because tier 2 classes with less powerful crit skill can have a chance. If I wanted just the fastest thign ever I would say:
1-Get doomknight -> graphics to low -> win
or even worse:
2-Let those noobs do footwaves and once they get catapults show them your super catapult skills beinh 3 or 4 times faster than them.

You see that it's just wrong.

quote:

Overall, you seem to be very reliant on getting criticals which is not exactly a good idea for lower levels. I am sure there are classes that are much better when they are getting criticals but start to falter real fast when they do not. Which I am sure you noticed with classes such as Deathknight, Paladin, and Necromancer for obvious examples.

Only in mult battles to have coherency between the t2 and t3 classes. Think that while it's true that low levels have less crit they have higher damage power in the form of stats. If we had a hp scaling formula per level between the mooks category we would see if those % would stay constant or be lower.

The issues of those classes are the slow as hell animations. DK case has some weird lag after using the mult. But anyways it doesn't matter because the attack button is fast. If you're talking about the passives. Well choose between a more constant time or a "sometimes faster/sometimes slower" thing.

quote:

By the way, you automatically heal between waves...

Not in serenity before the storm.

quote:

I'm also going to note that while a section based on numbers is fine, you MUST have something else that is relevant included. Otherwise, the guide merits being declined under this:
quote:

5. Making a guide about Equipment Comparison or Battle Strategy. Since we now have the wonderful DragonFable Equipment Comparison Forum and Dragonfable Strategy Forum, please use those for any and all of your needs on those subjects!


The History is nice but can be found in Azan's plot synopsis, the Spoils of War can be found easily in the Pedia and the Tips is good, but I wouldn't say that is enough to make a guide. The rest is not really a guide but just background info. You need more!


Yeh I'm aware of it. The guide is not even at it's 50%. It's not like I'm going to finish it tomorrow or something. Look at the deadline. Before november the 13th.
Once I'm way ahead (like 90%) I'll see if the conclict is still there. If it is I'll think about something.



Azan -> RE: A Guide To Wars (7/24/2015 18:06:52)

When I get a computer back, I have a mid-leveled Cryptic (lvl 55) on which I war nearly as fast as with my RW main. If low/mid levels warring tests are needed, I can certainly help with them.

By the way, while it is true that some of the History can be found on the Plot Synopsis guide, there are unique informations in it as well, such as the date of the introduction of various war mechanics, like the catapults. I do understand the point though!



Ash -> RE: A Guide To Wars (7/24/2015 19:25:18)

quote:

Yeh I'm aware of it. The guide is not even at it's 50%. It's not like I'm going to finish it tomorrow or something. Look at the deadline. Before november the 13th.
Once I'm way ahead (like 90%) I'll see if the conclict is still there. If it is I'll think about something.

Then stop poking around with the fluffy parts, the parts where it's not your info but just stuff copied from other sources, asking other people to do the work for you since this is supposed to be a brand new guide (not one you're taking over from someone else), and make it into what you intended to. The point is do the unique stuff FIRST, the stuff your guide will need to be approved on, THEN go back and do all the fluffy stuff that makes it look pretty and fills it out with more info. You're starting at the top of the pyramid and are trying to work your way down. Start at the base with what makes your guide original and unique and not something we could look up in 3 different places or is just getting other people to do your work for you.



Azan -> RE: A Guide To Wars (8/4/2015 23:23:25)

RiftWalker testing!

Footwaves
• First try: 1min 24 sec
• Second try: 1min 26 sec
• Third try: 1min 44 sec
• Fourth try: 1min 24 sec
• Fifth try: 1min 45 sec
• Average: 1 min 32 sec

Supply Grab
• First try: 33 sec
• Second try: 33 sec
• Third try: 33 sec
• Fourth try: 32 sec
• Fifth try: 34 sec
• Average: 33 sec

Stolen Catapult
• First try: 31 sec
• Second try: 30 sec
• Third try: 34 sec
• Fourth try: 28 sec
• Fifth try: 29 sec
• Average: 30 sec

A note on RiftWalker: RiftWalker's main drawback when farming waves compared to other classes like Cryptic is its animation length. While Cryptic's Throw is undoubtedly one of the fastest animations in the whole game, RiftWalker's warring skills for solo enemies (mostly Power and Trip, though Aimed works for lower HP mobs) have a longer animation (nearly each RiftWalker skill doing four hits). This explains why it's slower than Cryptic.



And the result of the lower lvl mob HP testing:

Level 10 mobs
• Weak: 80 HP
• Medium: 107 HP
• Tank: 134 HP
• Multi Main: 107 HP
• Multi Others: 67 HP

Level 14 mobs
• Weak: 98 HP
• Medium: 130 HP
• Tank: 163 HP
• Multi Main: 130 HP
• Multi Others: 82 HP

Level 51 mobs
• Weak: 200 HP
• Medium: 266 HP
• Tank: 333 HP
• Multi Main: 266 HP
• Multi Others: 167 HP



crabpeople -> RE: A Guide To Wars (8/5/2015 3:40:02)

Wow so it's slower than Guardian? That's not kewl [&:].
Thanks for the help anyways :)
Could you do the Footwaves test again but with DeathKnight? It's for calibration purposes to see if you're faster or slower than me so I can put a correction factor to your timings or not. So yeah go for the 15 waves again :P

About the hp tests: Thanks that helps a lot. As I espected the scaling formula is not constant. It probably varies at certain level ranges. I guess I'll figure it out with some more information. With that formula I'll be able to setup a proper strategy for mid and low leveled players (non-DA players inc.). And with the proper "casual item set" like being for example lv 38 and having lv30 weapon and similar levels with accessories.



Azan -> RE: A Guide To Wars (8/5/2015 11:18:40)

Will do! One thing now that I think of it though: my computer or my network are not the fastest ever, and I usually never war on Medium graphics but on Low graphics.



In the meantime, I have a few suggestions for the Q&A. So here's the...

Happy Warmonger Q&A
"Questions and answers make good warriers! ... what? What do you mean warrier is not a word?"

Okay, I couldn't resist giving these suggestions a fancy title. :P

• Can low-leveled characters still make as much as a difference in wars than high-leveled ones?
Yes, certainly! The trick is to exploit the best solution available. The Catapult minigame does not depend on your level, so it's just as fast if you are level 1 or 80. If you can avoid all the monsters on the path, the Supply Grab and Stolen Catapult quests will contain only one monster you have to beat, so low-levels won't have that much of a disadvantage. Do keep in mind, however, that if you want Gold and Experience, the best warring type for it is Footwaves, in which the low-leveled characters will admittedly perform more slowly. It's up to you to decide whether you want to kill waves fast, contribute more to the war and get more Defender's Medals or kill waves more slowly and get a whole lot more Gold and Experience.

• Is a Beastmaster build viable in wars?
It's not optimal. While in the rest of the game, it may shine, in wars you must kill things fast, hopefully in one turn. One pet and one or two guests represent up to three additional turns, which slows the waves down and has an impact on your performance. Plus, guests improve the mobs' HP by a good margin, meaning they make them harder to kill. In wars, it is best to invest in STR/DEX/INT and LUK than in CHA.

• How can you lose a war?
The DragonFable Team set a definite amount of waves in a definite amount of times (example: 3,500,000 waves in 7 days). If, in the time allowed, the wave requirement is not met, the war is considered lost.

• Where can I find Defender's Medals outside of wars? I want to upgrade my Defender's gear.
The only quest outside of wars that give Defender's Medals is Fires Over Oaklore. It is a bombing minigame that takes a lot of time to complete: that is intentional. The goal of Defender's Medals is to make people fight in wars, so they will not drop outside of them. The goal of the Fires Over Oaklore quest is so Guardians can gather 10 Defender's Medals for their armor training even if there's no ongoing war. It is not meant as a farming spot.

• On the war threads, I have seen people claim they made several thousands of waves! How is that even possible?
That is entirely possible ; I assure you these players are not cheaters! Some people can defeat 5000, 9000, 10000 waves and even more. Their secret? Dedication and speed! Each second of free time they have during the warring period, they hop on their device and defeat a few waves. These most dedicated warmongers also know how to optimize the time they have and use the best warring classes and know exactly where each button is located on their skillset. Some of the players who do an insane number of waves are also mostly using the Catapult, since it can be up to seven times faster than footwaves.

• I reached 1001 waves on one character, and now my counter just won't go up when I defeat more waves! Is this a bug?
First, congratulations for reaching the iconic 1001 waves! This situation is not a bug. The state you are in is called counterbreak. The game was originally coded so when you reached 1001 waves, your counter would show "1000+". For some reason the intended "1000+" shows as "1001". Any wave you do after your 1001th will not show on your Character Page or on the "Your Waves" in-game counter, but they still count for the War Counter itself! Any wave you do after 1001 is still just as helpful to the war.



crabpeople -> RE: A Guide To Wars (8/6/2015 5:34:47)

I'm not sure if giving it a section or merging it with the FAQ. I guess I can change the title (from FAQ to happy warmogner QnA) and put all the questions there.

There's going to be a huge update to the guide next week. (adding all your stuff, the warring methods sections,FAQ stuff...).

What's missing:

-DMK Supply Grab/Stolen Catapult testing.
-ChronoCorrupter Footwaves testing.

Azan: Do the DK testing when your internet connection works fine. Or working the same way as it did with the RW testing.

Other stuff I would like to know:
Can you provide me with the hp values of waves monsters with your alt characters level? (You have some examples at the previous Azan's post).
The reasoning behind it is to find an accurate (no need to be exact) of the monsters scaling hp formula. That way doing strategy for the low and mid level tiers will be way easier.



Hopeful Guy -> RE: A Guide To Wars (8/6/2015 10:54:13)

You will have to wait for the DmK stuff, I have an ultra-slow internet connection at the moment. Should I run Supply Grab and Stolen Catapult on Cryptic as well when I get the time, considering that it seems to be the fastest class for footwaves? (unless ChronoCorruptor beats it...)



Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: A Guide To Wars (8/6/2015 11:15:57)

ChronoCorruptor times. Sorry I'm so late, been really busy with work lately.

260 Int, 240 Luk, 34 Crit. So +38 damage and 46 Crit. Using Dark Pandora.

Run 1 - 1:29:58 (no multi battles)
Run 2 - 1:38:95 (1 multi battle, took 2 turns)
Run 3 - 1:57:25 (2 multi battles, one took 3 turns and the other 2)
Run 4 - 1:49:67 (1 multi battle, took 2 turns but it was those dancing spectres so their turns took forever >.<)
Run 5 - 1:29:86 (no multi battles)

Average time = 1:41:06

A pretty slow class for warring, since it suffers from the same problem as RW; Scratch is a very strong move (it does 3 hits of 150% for 450% total, not 3 hits of 50% for 150% total like the encyclopedia claims) <-Fixing ~Ash which will kill any war enemy in one use (unless you get 1+ misses and no crits; 1 miss, 1 crit and 1 hit will still kill even tanks), but it takes ~3 seconds. And while it does have a skill (Space Bomb) that's even faster than Cryptic's Throw which can kill weak (and standard if you're using a better weapon and get lucky) monsters in one hit on a crit (don't worry, I followed the rules and didn't use it except to finish off low-HP monsters in multi battles), it fails at multi battles pretty badly since its multi has a longish animation (~3 seconds per enemy), only does 130% damage, and has a CD of 1. It requires 2/5 crits to kill weak side-enemies and can leave too much on the main for Space Bomb to reliably finish it off if you get unlucky, so it can potentially take 3+ turns.

However, I don't actually think the times of the runs themselves are at all useful. I say this because I also did DK for comparison and these are my results:

1:18:58 (2 multis, both took 1 turn)
1:45:93 (1 multi, took 3 turns)
1:46:10 (1 multi, took 4(!) turns but I switched targets and killed the passive-affected one first which saved time compared to the previous one)
1:42:35 (4 multis (!), 3 took 2 turns and 1 took 1 turn)
...
1:03:96 (holy crap man, it took me 17 attempts to finally get a run with no multi battles for a speed comparison...)

That makes the average time 1:31:38, way different from your results or Hopeful's, simply because I got lots of multi battles and got unlucky with crits on some of them; as you can see from my no-multi time, my actual speed is much the same as Hopeful's (I get no lag whatsoever on any settings; Low and Best give me the same frame-rate [which, by the way, is another thing I wanted to point out; you can't recommend a graphical setting, because performance depends on PC specs. Medium for some people will be unplayable due to lag while for others is no different from Best except for looking worse]). And that's a problem. If it were only the attacks themselves (crit or no, hit or no) that were variable, then 5 sets of 3 would be fine really. But with the variability of encountered enemies as well, doing it this way is not nearly enough to give a useful result for comparison.

In order to get a usable result, either the number of waves done has to be way higher (like 50 or so), or the method needs to change entirely. Perhaps doing some number of waves with no multis, then some number of waves with multis, maybe even splitting the multi-waves into ones that went well and ones that went poorly. I dunno, it's your guide so it's up to you to decide how to balance the effort involved with the expected usefulness. It might even be best to scrap the idea altogether and simply compare the damage/speed of the moves of different classes. :/

Supply Grab and Stolen Catapult though, are fine as is. Should I try those out with CC since it's got a strong opener that can potentially kill both of those in 1 hit?



Hopeful Guy -> RE: A Guide To Wars (8/6/2015 11:36:09)

The multi/no multi thing is why I'd call the results largely invalid. You can't compare two classes doing different things. What I suggest is that you simply time each class to do 50 waves, no repeats, since everything will just average out. It would have to be done at the 1m war because of Serenity before the Storm not healing. Of course, that would take time...



crabpeople -> RE: A Guide To Wars (8/6/2015 12:33:10)

It's painful but I guess I have to because as I mentioned on any of my previous posts "I'm afraid 15 waves is not representative enough"... I'll cut the least competitive classes like necro and pally. I'll be done eventually by doing 1 class/day or something like that. The concern here is if the 100 loading screen times will remain constant or not... I guess I can fiddle with the timer if any of those gets longer than usual.

The supply grab/s catapults are fine as they are.
quote:

Supply Grab and Stolen Catapult though, are fine as is. Should I try those out with CC since it's got a strong opener that can potentially kill both of those in 1 hit?

@Sakurai: If you believe it's going to be as fast (or close) to RW and EvolPKL go ahead.

Once done that would pretty much close the lv80-tier classes. Later I'm planning to do the same (but with a smaller range of classes) for low,mid and high levels with suboptimal gear (the stats will be offensive [not FULL offensive]).
But because I'm lacking characters for each level range (and having them with certain fully trained classes or DC classes) I'm working in finding out the hp scaling equation so I can do some theorycrafting. Cuz let's be real we are 4 guys here working on the guide not 50 [:D]. So the low-mid-high level tiers will be done in paper with some security intervals.

I guess you don't mind but I apologize for wasting your time in something that won't be of much use (still it's a good warm up [:D]).

quote:

It would have to be done at the 1m war because of Serenity before the Storm not healing

True but If I recall correctly, in that war mult battles auxiliary mosnters have more hp. Not that big of a deal because before I start doing those 50 waves runs I'll rework the rules. Especially the ones refering to the vs2 and vs3 battles.
I chose the gamble option because of the high crit rate. But I also did it to favour KAA and ACC mults.

EDIT: Yep they have the same hp as "weak" mosnters.
EDIT2: Im encountering weak mosnters all the time... This war is kinda bad...



crabpeople -> RE: A Guide To Wars (8/9/2015 10:39:14)

After checking some wars... The one I like the most for testing right now is F13th Full moon.

It's balanced in terms of single/mult battles and mosnters are pretty much straight forward. Also they have a "plus" which is some mosnters having a 25hp boost (they got 5 END). If no one has a better suggestion I'll go for this war for the 50 waves testing. I'll edit the rules tomorrow and start the testing at tuesday (first one will be the new armor meheheh).

Also as I said, I'll be updating the guide as we progress through the week.

Another war I liked was the dragonrose war vs rose infantry. Sadly some of them use shield skills and that can be a pain for some classes (and troublesome with 50 waves raids).




crabpeople -> RE: A Guide To Wars (8/10/2015 11:40:10)

Ok the rules have been updated (blue text). The first 3 classes going for the testing will be DK,IBR and the exosuit (tomorrow probably).

This is a question for my Q&A section: Does anyone got the Moonridge Assist trinket?

For those who have it, can you answer these 2 questions?

1-It does 5 hits of 30% (150% total) to EACH enemy or those 5 hits are split between all targets?

2-How is the animation speed compared to a regular class mult skill? Is it faster/more or less the same/slower/way slower? (please mention the class that you used for the comparisson).



Azan -> RE: A Guide To Wars (8/11/2015 14:50:04)

quote:

Btw you still working on the warmonger speech?

Here it is at last. I ended up writing it myself.[:)] It's largely inspired from a poem by William Blake, with touches from Ed Sheeran's I See Fire and the GoT houses mottos.

When evil lurks in the shadow
When hope is swallowed in war
When the senses are shaken
And the soul is driven to madness

Who can stand?

When the whirlwind of fury comes from the enemy
And legions stand with oblivion in their eyes
When souls are torn to everlasting fire
And fiends of Hell rejoice upon the slain

Who can stand?

As the sky is filled with
Fire and smoke
Blades drawn and spells casted
Enemies crushed to ashes

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken we are
As time passes we grow stronger
Ours is the most righteous fury
Because never shall we sow

We are the Warmongers of Lore
We can stand.



crabpeople -> RE: A Guide To Wars (8/12/2015 18:01:32)

Tier 4

DMK

Tier 3

IBR
Total time: 26:56,83->1616,83 seconds -> 1,855 WPM
Rare waves: 0
Critical misses: 3

Strat according to rules (the class has 3 nukes)
vs 1: Razor Ice
vs 2: Razor Ice->Reaver's desire
vs 3: Razor Ice->Reaver's desire->Will of the fallen

Review: It's a slower war because there's way more mult battles. The strategy used doesn't rely on criticals. It could have been faster if I used the mult at the vs3 battle and gambling for a (1,2,3,4 turn victory).
Any thoughts about this? You think it's better going for the safe strategy for all classes which moveset affords it or gambling for most of them?
The good thing about this strategy is that it becomes valid for all the level tiers (if I prove it with numbers once I get the hp scaling formula done)

Strat using crit gamble
vs 1: Razor Ice
vs 2: Razor Ice->Reaver's desire
vs 3: Howling Talons-> Long Winter/Attack (depending on remaining hp)

Total time: 26:50,62->1610,62 seconds -> 1,862 WPM
Rare waves: 0
Critical misses: 4

Review: Ok even if it got 6 seconds faster I'm going to discard it (I'll add a note at the guide when I put this in, explaining that it's convenient to use the mult when you have a very high crit rate).

DK
Total time: 26:04,86->1564,86 seconds -> 1,917 WPM
Rare waves: 0
Critical misses: 2

Strat according to rules (the class has 3 nukes)
vs 1: Obliterate
vs 2: Obliterate->Dreadblade
vs 3: Obliterate->Dreadblade ->Summon Minion

Review:I got kinda lucky with the solo waves (I think I got 10 or so). Still... I believe DK animations are slightly faster than IBR.
I went for the safe strat because you can't afford leaving survivors. Else the passive will slow you down.

Ancient Exosuit
Total time: 25:51,56->1551,56 seconds -> 1,933 WPM
Rare waves: 0
Critical misses: 4

Strat according to rules
vs 1: Overload Matrix
vs 2: Enhancement Systems ->Wave Form Generator
vs 3: Enhancement Systems ->Wave Form Generator
Finisher: Target Nullification Protocol/Damage Limiter Protocol

Review: Really fast animations. The only drawback is the lack of damage in the crit skill and a secondary (or a stronger one) mult.

KAA
Total time: 24:55,03->1495,03 seconds -> 2,006 WPM
Rare waves: 0
Critical misses: 5

Strat according to rules
vs 1: Mad vs "weak" and Red Tide for the rest.
vs 2: Tidal ->Attack
vs 3: Tidal ->Attack

Review: KAA powerful mult adds lots of stability in tough situations. The +25hp (5 END) auxiliary targets survived at times. But the fact of skipping most of the werebats turns is what made the timer drop so much in comparisson with other classes.
That is why the result is so similar to the 2,1 WPM from the old tests.

"Old" Ascendant
Total time: 34:10,11->2050,11 seconds -> 1,463 WPM
Rare waves: 0
Critical misses: 3

Strat according to rules
vs 1: Ascension
vs 2: Ageisk's Fury
vs 3: Ageisk's Fury
Finisher: The Staff/Kick (in case The Staff falls short in power)

Review: Ascension is the only thing you can use and takes forever. Draging the vs1 fights in 2 turns with faster moves is not worth either.

"New" Ascendant
Total time: 26:42,09->1602,09 seconds -> 1,872 WPM
Rare waves: 1
Critical misses: 2

Strat according to rules
vs 1: Ascension
vs 2: Ageisk's Fury
vs 3: Ageisk's Fury
Finisher: The Staff/Kick (in case The Staff falls short in power)

Review: From worst warring class to average... Sponsored by the explosive ring of doon!

RW


Cryptic by Hopeful Guy

Total time: 20:21.03 (1221 seconds, rounding down for .03)
Speed: 2.457 wpm
Rare waves: 0
Critical misses: 4

Strategies: vs 1: Throw-> Rapid (if needed)
vs 2: Throw-> Rapid
vs 3: Wild-> Throw-> Rapid-> Wild

Review: Not quite the 3 wpm attained in original testing. Multis slow Cryptic down a lot, because Wild has 2 turns of CD. Still very, very quick, and Throw-> Rapid is possibly the fastest way to kill a monster with 1000 HP. I think DmK will push it into second place here because of the high concentration of multi mobs.

AoT
Total time: 32:43,84->1963,84 seconds -> 1,528 WPM
Rare waves: 1
Critical misses: 4

Strat according to rules (I'll do an exception here due to the extremly long animations times of some skills)
vs 1: Time Storm
vs 2: Fragments of Eternity -> Reflections of Nothing
vs 3: Fragments of Eternity -> Reflections of Nothing
Finisher: Reflections of Nothing/Attack

Review: Are my eyes deceiving me? A rare wave!!!!!
About AoT. The 5 hits from the mult makes this move "emulate" the KAA/ACC mults thanks to the high critical rate. So yeah this strategy is for high crit only. (I won't even mention this class for low-mid levels).


Chronomancer


ChronoCorrupter


ChronoZ


ACC
Total time: 25:52,65->1552,65 seconds -> 1,932 WPM
Rare waves: 0
Critical misses: 2

Strat according to rules
vs 1: Chicken Blasters vs "weak" and Wrath of the ChickenCow for the rest.
vs 2: Eggteor Barrage -> Egg of Mystery
vs 3: Eggteor Barrage -> Egg of Mystery

Review: The only limiting factor of ACC is the animation times which are kinda similar to KAA. You can save up some time by using blasters vs "normal" enemies with a high crit rate but that's against the rules (there's other moves availabe like Wrath. Crit gamble is allowed when the class offers no other options). This class does better at wars with lots of mult waves or when its crowded with weaklings.

EPKL
Total time: 23:08,45->1388,45 seconds -> 2,161 WPM
Rare waves: 0
Critical misses: 6

Strat according to rules
vs 1: Cleaving Thorn
vs 2: Thorn Cyclone -> Sling Thorns
vs 3: Thorn Cyclone -> Sling Thorns
Finisher: Vine Whip

Review: My my... If Cleaving Thorn animation was as fast as Vine Whip's this class would be even faster than Cryptic. This class is a monster at mult battles. Even more if you have high crit rate.
The reasoning behind the 6 critical misses is due to the 2-hit animation of cleaving thorn (more hits = more misses).

Tier 2

Guardian
Total time: 29:00,76->1740,76 seconds -> 1,723 WPM
Rare waves: 0
Critical misses: 4

Strat according to rules
vs 1: Keen Edge
vs 2: Keen Edge->Guardian Rage
vs 3: Vortex->Mega Shock
Finisher: Attack

Review: The playstyle is the similar to the ancient exosuit but Guardian has slower animations overall. Also the little extra hp of some mobs hurts this class timings.

Pirate
Total time: 29:28,66->1768,66 seconds -> 1,696 WPM
Rare waves: 0
Critical misses: 5

vs 1: "Normal/Weak"->Help from the Locker "Tanky"->Dirty Trick->Help from the Locker/Flintlock/Quick Shot (depending on remaining hp)
vs 2: Help from the Locker>Fire the Broadsides!
vs 3: Quick Shot ->Flintlock (main target)->Quick Shot

Review: Pirate is fun to play. Quick shot giving honor to it's name and being possibly the quickest skill in the game when used on 1v1. The lack of a third nuke for v3 battles and lack of damage vs tanky targets is what slows down this class.

Dread Pirate
Total time: 29:21,02 -> 1761,02 seconds -> 1,703 WPM
Rare waves: 1
Critical misses: 3

vs 1: "Normal/Weak"->Call the Brute Group "Tanky"->Below the Ankles ->Call the Brute Group/Eel Repellent/Quick Thinking (depending on remaining hp)
vs 2: Quick Thinking->Eel Repellent->Quick Thinking (if needed)
vs 3: Quick Thinking->Eel Repellent->Quick Thinking (if needed)

Review: Mmm... Going for a high crit build with Dread Pirate allows you to defeat most auxiliary targets in 1 turn thanks to the double roll of the 45%ish crit. The main drawback is that the mult animation is slower than Pirate mult so the time you win with the mult battles is lost with the slower animation and the loss of the quickest move ever in 1v1.

Ninja
Total time: 29:42,21 -> 1782,21 seconds -> 1,683 WPM
Rare waves: 2
Critical misses: 3

vs 1: "Normal/Weak"->Massive Strike "Tanky"->Furious Assault ->Massive Strike/Rapid Attack (depending on remaining hp)
vs 2: Massive Strike->Rapid Attack->Attack
vs 3: Hidden Strike->Rapid Attack (main target)->Hidden Strike

Review: This class has fast animations in general (what did you expect, it's a ninja!). Sadly it lacks a secondary nuke (shadow strike takes 2 turns). This makes this class very crit reliant at mult battles. The good news is that all the skills used are on the left side so that means a good warring class for non-DA players!
P.D; Why do I have to encoutner 2 rare waves (+-2,3k hp massive dogs) with ninja? why rng? [:'(]

DS
Total time: 28:08,99->1688,99 seconds -> 1,776 WPM
Rare waves: 0
Critical misses: 2

Strat according to rules
vs 1: Slayer's Keen Eye
vs 2: Slayer's Keen Eye ->Draconic Strike->Attack
vs 3: Ire of Scales->Slayer's Keen Eye/Draconic Strike/Scale Rot (depending on remaining hp)
Finisher: Attack/Scale Rot

Review: DS animations are fairly fast but it lacks damage vs non-Dragons. Because of that it's very crit reliant on vs2 and vs3 battles. It's fast at vs1 battles though.

EvolCC
Total time: 28:55,28->1735,28 seconds -> 1,729 WPM
Rare waves: 0
Critical misses: 1

Strat according to rules
vs 1: Eggteor Shower
vs 2: Eggteor Shower->BBQ Chicken Epic Attack
vs 3: Eggteor Shower->BBQ Chicken Epic Attack ->Hot Wings

Review: EvolCC animations are fairly fast and it can safely 1 shot everything. It suffers at mult battles becuase of that (and this war is crowded of them) but it's a good option for wars with lots of solo battles.

FMA
Total time: 25:34,00->1534,00 seconds -> 1,956 WPM
Rare waves: 0
Critical misses: 1

Strat according to rules
vs 1: Fruitcake Brick/Spirit of Giving vs "tanky"
vs 2: Fruitcake Brick->Warmth
vs 3: Yule Tide->Missle Toe ->Fruitcake Brick

Review: This class is really fast vs weaklings and decent vs everything else. The 2 mult attacks have a weird delay when the animation ends though. I decided to put the mults before fruitcake at the vs3 In order to gamble for a possible 2 turn victory. The price to pay is getting 3 attacks instead of 2 at the first turn (if there are no crits ofc). Warmth falls in the limit of beating/not beating an auxiliary target like the 340% crit classes vs tanky targets. Spirit of giving could be used instead but it takes longer.


Edit: I'll keep working on the armor tests. Meanwhile I've added the hp scaling formula at the very end of the guide/some sample videos to the warring methods sections/added another question to the FAQ.



Hopeful Guy -> RE: A Guide To Wars (8/18/2015 8:56:46)

Not sure I'll be able to do the Stolen Catapult or Supply Grab with DmK after all, so anyone else with the class can feel free to do it. I'll still try and get the 50 waves done though.



Azan -> RE: A Guide To Wars (8/18/2015 9:49:08)

So Ancient Exosuit is slightly faster than DK? Well that's most interesting. I assume it's the passive taking additional time.

I'll try to do RW... sometime soon. Hopefully.



crabpeople -> RE: A Guide To Wars (8/18/2015 10:38:43)

@Hopeful Guy: Take your time.
@Azan: "I assume it's the passive taking additional time." Nope it is pretty much the animation times and exosuit ability to clear vs3 battles in 2 turns (in a safe way).
DK passive barely ever appeared (just at critical misses) because I was doing 1 hit K.O to eveything. I could have gone with Reap+mult at vs3 battles with DK but reap is too weak and the passive will come into play for 1 or 2 turns.

Btw Azan wanna offer yourself volunteer for the Stolen Cata and S.Grab with DMK?
You already did it with RW but there's example videos at the guide.


Does any of you have ChronoZ? the Blink Forward looks interesting and Dimensional Stab has enough damage for weak mobs.


Read me
Be careful when going for the testing. Treat all the enemies variety as the same and focus always the main target first during mult battles.
I'm telling because you'll find the Werebats really annoying [:D]. Yet you can't focus them first (because they're not main target at all the mult battles). Else you'll be saving time and your results won't be valid.

I recommend you doing first a test with any of the classes I already analyzed. If you're too lazy to do 50 waves for calibration purposes I guess you can go for 10 or 20 and do the math.

Oh and don't forget presenting the results with the same format as me. (Rare waves, critical misses, time, strategy, small review).

Critical miss: A miss that results into an enemy being alive (and performing his turn) when he was expected to die.



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