RE: =AQ3D= Suggestions Thread and Rules (Full Version)

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Lordk0z -> RE: =AQ3D= Suggestions Thread and Rules (12/7/2015 15:45:04)

1:We need some way to gain back mana in-fight.

2:This may just be me, but the female kind of looks......like a T, as if they have 2 joints in their arms rather than a shoulder. Maybe bulk them up a little?

3:A better designed threat/aggro system would be awesome. Tanks FTW



Rezilia -> RE: =AQ3D= Suggestions Thread and Rules (12/7/2015 18:18:58)

quote:

:We need some way to gain back mana in-fight.


Though there are many things from AQW I don't like, the ability to regain mana when you attack is one of the good parts. We definitely need that on atleast auto-attack. :O



speedmeteor101 -> RE: =AQ3D= Suggestions Thread and Rules (12/7/2015 18:48:10)

I think there should be some sort of trinket system where you can buy mana and health potions or equip a trinket in another slot.... Oh yeah https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/12295346_756147721184320_2286675808062729828_n.jpg?oh=05d4976798025d563bdd8d9677c229c1&oe=56DD8F9E this says we will be getting potions at least so maybe mana right there along with health (i'd assume in a pop up)and for the image to work you have to copy the url into a new tab, unless it's just my vpn.



Rezilia -> RE: =AQ3D= Suggestions Thread and Rules (12/7/2015 18:54:26)

^ Trustworthy link.

Also, "Zhu Li, do the thing!" xD



ernitis -> RE: =AQ3D= Suggestions Thread and Rules (12/8/2015 5:39:40)

Do we really need mana? I am going to point my fingers at xenoblade chronicles again. It's combat system basicly doesn't have mana, only cooldowns, and they actually feels really great. Really spammable abilities have low damage but high damage abilities have really long cooldowns. I honestly think mana is an outdated concept.



Rezilia -> RE: =AQ3D= Suggestions Thread and Rules (12/8/2015 10:49:00)

I honestly think that the mana system is better than the CD system, atleast if you're choosing between the two...in a game like AQ3D. Now, I'm not referring to my idea about the DF + AQW combat, only the 4-skill system that AQ3D is currently using. In a game where you only have 4 skills, putting CDs on everything makes combat seem reeeally long and reeeeally boring. I would rather there be no CDs, only mana, and auto-attacks + time giving mana regen, with MP pots only increasing regen rate while HP pots only give % HP back.

That makes combat more fluid and more interesting.



Fayne Dragonheart -> RE: =AQ3D= Suggestions Thread and Rules (12/8/2015 14:44:40)

If there wern't Mana in the game, there wouldn't be need for mages, mana = Magic. Magic = Mage. A.K.A Mana is needed, besides, i enjoy the challenge that you have to save the moves for the right timing, so you cant spam them. To answer the skill thing, maybe they could add more skill slots, i believe 4 is... not much, it get's kinda boring if you only have 4 skills. But then again, there are other classes, and i bet each class have their own unique skills, besides in the original AQ you didn't have any skills at all, only spells and "Attack" So this is kinda like a good improvement. Anyway, mana is always needed in a mmorpg however you want it or not.



Rezilia -> RE: =AQ3D= Suggestions Thread and Rules (12/8/2015 17:21:44)

^

He's referring to MP, as in Mana/Magic Points, the points that are consumed when you use skills. Mana itself is a mystical energy used to power magical spells. He is stating that the MP bar itself shouldn't exist, which works in some games.

They cannot add more slots because many smartphone screens would be frustrating to play the game with if they had to decrease skill slot sizes in order to put in more slots. I've played maaaany android RPGs, including MMOs, so trust me when I say their analysis is accurate.

Theoretically, an MMO can operate without an MP bar. CDs can replace MP completely, while some action combat MMOs replace CDs and MP with skill length, forcing you to "interupt" your own skills in battle. I simply believe that AQ3D would not play right if MP was taken away.



LyRein -> RE: =AQ3D= Suggestions Thread and Rules (12/8/2015 18:29:56)

@fayne

are you saying science isn't magic?
._.



poopbum -> RE: =AQ3D= Suggestions Thread and Rules (12/9/2015 20:32:29)

quote:


If 4 skill slots is the limit, make something like 10 (random number) skills for each class and give us the option to put them in the 4 slots. In other words, don't give us the 4 set skills, instead, give us empty 4 empty skill slots (if that is the very limit) to put our desired skills in. There should be no problem with this because there is still space for phones and it gives the players more freedom on what type of class they want to play, be it DPS, a tank, ect.
I like this idea(and no one has provided any actual reason as to why it won't work), could be nice if paired if a skill tree system.

If AQ3D must have 4-skills system like AQW, then there's a need for it to avoid ending up as an AQW clone in terms of gameplay.

Merely having 4 skills slots but more than 4 skills to fit into those slots might not work alone. I mean look at HS, its system is basically 4 skill slots, but you get to chose from lots and lots of skills from shops. And yet it didn't work. Granted there's no class system though.

Anyway as for what I have in mind for skill tree system, I believe this thing can work even if we don't increase the number of buttons. Skill tree comes with passives, some with trade-offs/replacements that can result in a different experience each time depending on what you spec into.

I got this idea from briefly playing Borderlands 2, and apparently pumping the skill tree doesn't result in a need for much more buttons like Maplestory. Sure it might be harder to implement, but at least this means it won't end up like HS.



Rezilia -> RE: =AQ3D= Suggestions Thread and Rules (12/9/2015 21:31:32)

As someone who's played dozens of MMOs with the skill tree system... No. No. Burn it on a stake. No.

Skill trees are reeeeeally hard to balance and they always cause older skills to be weaker or less useful than higher level skills. They also make it impossible to balance classes against one another without devs having to make new balance patches every single week.

Seriously, no.



poopbum -> RE: =AQ3D= Suggestions Thread and Rules (12/9/2015 22:56:14)

Yeah it will be quite hard to balance, but gameplay wise.... well it worked for so many games so why not? Balance may not be perfect for them, but it still works in practice.

And as for higher level skills being better than lower level ones, isn't that the whole point of leveling up? To get stronger? Plus skill tree means they have to invest in lower tier skills to unlock high tier ones in the first place. Then again depends on how skill tree system gets implemented, and how strict they are.

Then again two other issues with skill tree system for AQ3D's context:
1) Doesn't go well with level scalling system, unless intention is to have imperfect scaling like ED.

2) If AQ3D is gonna have equippable class armor system like AQW, then it ain't feasible to have a skill tree for every class. Too tricky to implement, let alone balance.

As for point 2), if AQ3D is gonna have that then it points at another thing: AQ3D's gonna heavily resemble AQW here. At least when it comes to solo play.(they did say they have ways to make group play more synergistic?)
Well AQ, DF, MQ and ED can be considered as AE's turn-based MMOs, while AQW and HS are pseudo turn-based. Both involve doing actions with whatever your equipment allows with an element of RNG, though pseudo turn-based is simpler in AE's context.

AQ3D looks to be pseudo turn-based too. I wish that can be changed to something more..... interactive to say. Going for something like 'WoW' is gonna be hard though with only 4 skills.

If AQ3D were to be somthing more real time action based(e.g. you move to dodge rather than letting RNGesus do the work) that will also be fresh.(though from the looks of it, I think it might be too late for that plus might not fit an MMO well)

EDIT: Hmm perhaps the whole idea of more than 4 skills per class but only being able to use 4 at a time can be done as a pseudo skill tree. No passives this time, just that some active skills can only be used with certain other basic skills in an earlier branch.

Yes it introduces a form of restriction, but also gives room for people to specialize according to their playstyle. Also gives way for more bombastic abilities as they come at a trade off.



Rezilia -> RE: =AQ3D= Suggestions Thread and Rules (12/9/2015 23:07:39)

quote:

well it worked for so many games so why not?


Borderlands had 4 classes. It was developed for atleast 2 years. It's a single-player game, so they didn't have to worry about PvP balance.

In most skill tree systems, players complain about the lack of versatility with one tree, so developers ended up turning it into 3 skill trees per class. Borderlands also does this.

In most cases, these 3 trees are dysfunctional and most players choose only one tree, the one that's the most powerful.

AQ3D is an MMO. It will have PvP. It will eventually have atleast 50 classes. If it uses the 3 trees per class, that would be atleast 150 trees that have to be balanced between one another. These trees would have to be rebalanced every single time a new class is released.

It wouldn't work.

The point of unlocking new skills, as shown in all previous AE games, is to have additional abilities, and for all abilities to each retain their usefulness in combat. If you replace lower level skills with higher level ones, you discard tons of skills that are no longer useful; this makes implementing those skills in the first place a meaningless endeavor.



poopbum -> RE: =AQ3D= Suggestions Thread and Rules (12/9/2015 23:59:20)

Borderlands was just an example, and yes I know it isn't MMO. Though there are plenty MMOs out there that use skill trees or pseudo skill trees that work.(some skills needing another to unlock) However those games enjoy more resources than AE perhaps.

Well my earlier post didn't meant to have it end up as replacement. Rather having starting core skills being implemented as something that MUST be used at all times somehow with later stuff as an add on. But forget about this.

Ehh I was thinking skill trees consisting of stuff that isn't just "do X better". But seems like this system is mutually exclusive with switchable class system like AQW.

Well AQ3D well it looks like is gonna be a MMO that follow AQW's class system then, along with many other AQW stuff instead of something like WoW. Ehh I will just stop here now, don't think I should have posted here in the first place since the system looks set-ish already.



ernitis -> RE: =AQ3D= Suggestions Thread and Rules (12/10/2015 4:27:25)

About the skill trees... It might work like this: you have a warrior, he has 2 skill trees, each containing a set of skills. One is a dps skill tree and the other is a tank skill tree. Every skill tree would need its leveling I suppose. For other classes there might be more skill trees (depending on their functions).



Lordk0z -> RE: =AQ3D= Suggestions Thread and Rules (12/10/2015 4:32:17)

About skill trees, the biggest problem is "Cookie Cutter" builds, namely, certain skills are simply BETTER than others.

I'd rather have something like World of Warcraft's new talent system, where each line is simply a playstyle shift, like 3 different upgrades to decisive strike such as "Decisive Cleave" or "Rallying Strike" where you pick between aoe and a buff.



ernitis -> RE: =AQ3D= Suggestions Thread and Rules (12/10/2015 4:40:58)

@above
The way I suguested it would fix it, because there would be skill trees that are simply gameplay shifts, containing another set of skills.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, it would still be very bland after a while, but still better then just having 4 skills.



Rezilia -> RE: =AQ3D= Suggestions Thread and Rules (12/11/2015 5:30:08)

quote:

The way I suguested it would fix it, because there would be skill trees that are simply gameplay shifts, containing another set of skills.


I'll use Forsaken World as an example. In FW, there's a class called Warrior. Warrior has 3 trees: Elemental, Bloodlust, and Aegis. Aegis is mostly defense with a little offense, Bloodlust is a full DPS, and Elemental is magic hybrid. The Elemental build is nothing compared to the other two and thus no one uses it because it's too weak. Aegis is nothing compared to the Protector class and Bloodlust is nothing compared to the Vampire and Assassin classes.

Thus, no one picks Warrior anymore because the versatility amongst itself and other classes made it useless compared to those other classes. Every tree fit class roles that other trees or classes could do better.


The point of changing classes in AE games is that each class is supposed to have its own playstyle and combat role. The Skill Tree system destroys that, just like how Ash's changes to DF classes destroyed it in DF (he made every class function exactly the same).

All the skill tree system will do is create an unlimited number of complaints about balance, which will cause the devs to make every class work the same way, which will destroy the point of having multiple classes.



poopbum -> RE: =AQ3D= Suggestions Thread and Rules (12/11/2015 6:39:37)

For the part about Ash's changes to DF, tell me with a straight face that Dragonlord class functions exactly the same as Riftwalker and Deathknight. [8D]

At this point in time it all boils down to how it is executed. After all the intended effect is merely playstyle shifts, not that one is supposed to be stronger than another in all ways. Of course they are all supposed to be equally viable, which is not the same thing as having the same function and playstyle.

The main reasoning behind the idea in the first place is to have more than 4 skills and still make sense anyway. Well can always go with ernitis' original idea of just having 10 skills per class to pick from, but only 4 usable at a time.

I just thought that if we make certain skills(out of the skills each class have) only usable with certain sets of other skills, we will be able to add the flavor of specialization(and maybe throw in a few extra skills).

Having more options for each class in a way squeezes multiple classes in one. Compared to simply having lots of other classes to fill in the niche, the difference can be considered merely cosmetic.

Though the former option does let players tweak/build/customize their own class, allowing potentially far more playstyles overall compared to merely having lots of classes.(assuming it works out)



Rezilia -> RE: =AQ3D= Suggestions Thread and Rules (12/11/2015 11:50:33)

quote:

Compared to simply having lots of other classes to fill in the niche, the difference can be considered merely cosmetic.


And that's exactly what I'm against. If you're going to do that, there's no need to make multiple classes in the first place. If every class is going to have the same abilities, then the game should only have one class. Making any more is just a waste of resources.

So, no. I'd rather have multiple classes - forcing players to choose a class wisely depending on the situation, then have everyone have the same easy mode class.



ernitis -> RE: =AQ3D= Suggestions Thread and Rules (12/11/2015 18:09:53)

I see a warrior being a jack-of-all-trades, yet master at none, simply because it's what you start with. Other classes will obviously take more effort to get, in turn making them higher tier and having a more specific function.



FriendOfAFriend -> RE: =AQ3D= Suggestions Thread and Rules (12/11/2015 20:27:16)

I will not tolerate anyone saying Ash destroyed anything. He practically saved DF's gameplay on his own.



poopbum -> RE: =AQ3D= Suggestions Thread and Rules (12/11/2015 20:58:26)

^Indeed just this. All he did was ensure that all classes are equally viable for their tiering so that there won't be a case of one class being clearly better than another in the same tier. And yet the classes still play out differently.
(DoomK is the only tier 4 though so an exception. IIRC Ash don't like how DoomK ended up super strong, but he still does his job. :P)

Equal overall power level =/= equal playstyle.

@ckdraonck: I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I apologize if my earlier wording was very misleading and unclear.

What I am not trying to say: Difference between classes(and variants) are largely cosmetic.

What I am trying to say: Comparing the system of having customizable classes with multiple classes, the difference between the two systems are largely cosmetic in terms of creating playstyles.(each playstyles are still different from each other)

Though customizable classes(via skill-tree thingies) can allow for more playstyles created per class, resulting in potentially more playstyles overall per work done from a developer's standpoint.(if done correctly) And from the player's perspective, they get to try making their own variant of a class for added personalization.

It is not that every class will have the exact same abilities, is its more that every class are equally usable but in their own special way. E.g. One being about support, one being about tanking, one being about crowd control and one being an all-rounded jack-of-all-trades "midfielder".



dragonman50 -> RE: =AQ3D= Suggestions Thread and Rules (12/12/2015 2:04:39)

First post on this forum! I've played AE games for longer than I can really remember and I agree that having a skill system identical to AQW's would get really, really boring. I kept up with AQW updates a lot and the new classes were pretty exciting, but the power creep just got worse and worse over time.

Any time you make a ton of classes like AQW has it'll inevitably become a problem. A skill system similar to Guild Wars 2 would, in my opinion, fit in very well with the previous suggestions and what Artix and the others have in mind. Four skill "slots" while each class has several unlockable skills. You have the normal skills (in this case, skill slots 1-3) and the ultimate skills (and again in this case, skill slot #4). I don't think it should follow Guild Wars 2 down to the letter since their system is far more extensive than what I've explained, but the basic idea is solid. It's not impossible to balance, and if you can get it right, it has a huge payoff. This kind of system is proven to work and it's not a stretch to say that it could work here. While it'd have to be tailored to AQ3D and they'd probably have to play around with the idea a lot, I think this is the best way the combat/classes in AQ3D can go.

So long as one class doesn't have TOO many skills, balancing should not become completely out of control. Remember AE, you heard it here...! [;)]

Edit: Also, this curbs the issue of too many classes greatly, as having more variety in the skills of one class will greatly reduce the need to continually pump out new classes.

Edit 2: I also don't think there should be complex skill trees of any kind. One great thing I love about AE games is, at times, the simplicity. I think skills should still be unlocked at rank/experience intervals like AQW, just there'd be more ranks since you'd have more skills to unlock.



Rezilia -> RE: =AQ3D= Suggestions Thread and Rules (12/12/2015 2:36:24)

quote:

I will not tolerate anyone saying Ash destroyed anything. He practically saved DF's gameplay on his own.


Having played DF before and after the changes, but not during, I am telling you straight up that the gameplay was better before. It now takes 2x longer to complete battles. Every single class is a jack-of-all-trades, destroying true versatility. The only differences are cosmetic and what stats need to be changed to make any of the classes work in the first place. Once you do that, everything is easy mode. You no longer have to break a sweat defeating impossible bosses even with a Tier 1 class. But if your class has no defensive abilities whatsoever, you always die. And now a single ultimate skill costs an entire MP bar.

Easy Mode =/= saving the gameplay

quote:

One being about support, one being about tanking, one being about crowd control and one being an all-rounded jack-of-all-trades "midfielder".


See, that's the thing you don't get.

Let's say you have 3 tank classes that function the same way. Which class is someone going to use - the one they like, or the one that's stronger? It's going to be the one that's stronger.

If you introduce skill trees, classes will inevitably fit combat roles. Combat roles are limited; gameplay mechanics aren't. If you introduce skill trees, all classes will be limited into combat roles instead of each class excelling at its own gameplay mechanics.

You seem to think that a playstyle is just a slight variant of a combat role. It isn't; it's the difference between sucking an enemy's blood, putting barriers around your party, weakening your opponent's equipment, etc, and having Poison DPS vs Bleed DPS, Light Tank vs Dark Tank, Voodoo Debuff vs Electric Debuff, etc.

You want the latter, I want the former. The former CHALLENGES the player, the latter gives the player easy street, just like it did in DF.

We don't want easy street. We want to be punished for choosing the wrong class in a situation and learning to use the right one. Once you take that away, everything turns into hybrid builds and power tiers...and the game is ruined.


I miss the days from AQC when choosing the right Armor actually meant something.



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