RE: AQ-Stat Overhaul Project (Full Version)

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Sapphire -> RE: AQ-Stat Overhaul Project (2/19/2024 17:14:20)

^ The issue is that warriors are using 0 proc weapons, so they'll be wanting to have access to weapons based skills.

The only armors that staff have ever made that are FD with weapons based skills came about this Frostval. 1 was a $100 package and the other was winter warden.

I have long since said that making a FD armor with an elecomped weapon based skill might be kind of neat. Elecomp for a FD armor would be smaller, and cap out somewhere around 1.5-1.55 or something like that, compared to north of 1.8 for FO, but an elecomped weapons based skill would be .8x*1.5 damage so it'd exceed the 1x bow damage. But alas, this was not considered ever until the warrior lean idea came about which pushes damage to 1x, further killing off the nuetral lean. I have a hunch if they'd have simply tried it one time at any point in AQ's history, that some players might have thought that it was a worthy endeavor and we'd see more simply because of the 1 single try-out. There are those pushing a false narrative that a weapons based skill on a FD armor wouldn't be valued because the armor isn't FO. I think there's value in playing in items and setups that contain both some offense and some defense, resulting in a quite potent combo. Warrior lean is an example of that. Bows now doing 115% damage while being in a FD armor is an example of that. I didn't need the stat revamp to envision the idea.


Anyway, Weapons based skills get pure boost from damage enhancers whereas spell based skills are halved. This is why warriors have zero options. The meta is weapon based skills.



Ogma -> RE: AQ-Stat Overhaul Project (2/19/2024 18:35:25)

Maybe we need a mechanic that takes advantage the less damage you receive that goes along with FD. A defensive backlash that doesn't depend on how high the enemy damages you but how close it is to 0. And if it hits 0 it's basically a dodgelash, so a damage cap for a given hit is equal to a standard dodgelash, damage can be enhanced with elecomp (ie, earth backlash in an earth armor).



ming shuen -> RE: AQ-Stat Overhaul Project (2/19/2024 22:47:25)

I love @Sapphire's idea of changing existing that aren't being used much, and modifying them to fit existing archetypes.

Stats changed drastically over the years. There are many items that are tremendously underutilized. Dusting off old gear, and reusing those artwork seems like a good idea.

I understand that the staff may be a bit hesitant to do this kind of thing due to some players having grievances about Tribal Shaman. However, if it is a handful of aesthically pleasing F2P items being updated to relevance, I think it will be welcomed by everyone.



Kalle29 -> RE: AQ-Stat Overhaul Project (2/20/2024 3:09:06)

So does this mean that the dreaded standard of old has finally been kicked to the curb? Is there a post that contains the full details of this update?

edit: found them

edit again: can we get the exact calculations for damage and especially accuracy with the modern standard?



Korriban Gaming -> RE: AQ-Stat Overhaul Project (2/20/2024 4:41:38)

Alright finally time to make a post after testing out the new stats for a few days.

Most changes I'm actually happy with.

DEX needs more testing and I withdrew from the discussion early on regarding DEX since I'm not really a Ranger main. I think the lean shift can bring about some interesting combinations. The idea to start at 100% right off the bat is a step in the right direction. To me, this DEX change feels like a buff to FO Rangers which is nice. FD Rangers on the other hand, got a nerf with regards to the changes in CHA, more on that later.

The INT mechanic is about as useful as everyone thought it would be. I know it's already been repeated countless times that it's set in stone, but really, go back and look at all the negative feedback about this Wallbreaker mechanic. If upper management is listening, I hope there's some room for reconsideration to do something more useful. Going ahead with a change when majority thinks is bad isn't a great look.

CHA is the surprising one. Through my own testing, it doesn't feel that bad in game tbh. Maybe I might have over reacted a little. That being said, most statuses isn't following the power decrease, maybe that's why my current perception is skewed when it's really worse than what I think it is. This being said, does it mean Ianthe will have to spend another year going through each and every guest again? I've said it once and I'll say it again, this whole nerf to guests, is a mistake. So much time is spent on it and now even more time has to be spent. All of this could have been avoided if they just left it alone when many people who actually uses CHA were fine with where they were. What's done is already done, I doubt there's a giant undo button for everything anyway so personally I would suggest just moving forward and spending the time coding other promised big projects like classes or the void revamp

Backhand on STR isn't performing all the time from what I've heard. The value is also kinda weak but that's to be expected. Would have much preferred the original suggestion of Choke but meh.



zekefreed777 -> RE: AQ-Stat Overhaul Project (2/20/2024 7:46:19)

As a long term player, I coudn't believe the stat changes came around. Although some niches for FD Warriors may not exist and the dynamics may change from the bonuses, I think Warriors should be better off with the changes because they have morre durability with FD armors.

Removeing the accuracy from Dex also aligns it to a more DF like stat spread which I think the game sorely needed, so I see that as an improvement as well.

One of the things I noticed was implemented with Ranged was the 20 turn attack buff, and I may have an unpopular and possibly wildly hard to implement take on this, but I think a blanket buff should be given to normal mobs (not boss or semi-boss mobs) that goes into effect after 20 turns for the sake of speed. I have always held the opinion that if you are a level 150 X-Guardian with the strongest arsenal known to Lore, you should be able to get through the most basic of mobs quicker than the average boss or semi-boss as mechanically intended. I don't know if that can be tied to level and mob difficulty and if its pertinent to the stat overhaul, but I am glad that something to that effect was implemented with Rangers in mind.

The CHA nerf, although offputting to some, is something I don't think will be that bad. I have a CHA secondary and I have to say that it tends to shred through mobs fairly quickly with the right combination of pets, items and spells. That may affect the other Beastmaster builds, but the core Beastmaster build is kept in check that way.

Another thing to keep in mind as well is that we can't see the full picture, and if these changes accomodate for interesting things to be done with class overhauls further down the line, I think the CHA and Warrior buffs are fair, given the amount of things that can be done with advanced Warrior classes later on (Assassin, Archknight if that ever takes off, Dragonslayer for warriors and Beastmaster, Dracomancer, Ranger for CHA and other unexplored classes for both).

I don't know if I am 100% on board with the LUK change given accuracy is always an issue, but if accuracy is tied to mainstat moreso than DEX, it probably is also a welcome balance if it raises the base accuracy levels (looking at you, Sneaks, Skeeters, & Ghosts).

Suffice to say, I think the overhaul is a step forward overall and the change is something exciting. My thing to those worried about the CHA nerf is that the staff has consistently delivered, and Patience is ALWAYS a rewarded virtue with this game.

EDIT2: I think Sapphire's idea for giving old gear new love may also help the staff get 2 birds with one stone, so I'm all for it too!




Sapphire -> RE: AQ-Stat Overhaul Project (2/20/2024 10:25:37)

quote:

I love @Sapphire's idea of changing existing that aren't being used much, and modifying them to fit existing archetypes.

Stats changed drastically over the years. There are many items that are tremendously underutilized. Dusting off old gear, and reusing those artwork seems like a good idea.

I understand that the staff may be a bit hesitant to do this kind of thing due to some players having grievances about Tribal Shaman. However, if it is a handful of aesthically pleasing F2P items being updated to relevance, I think it will be welcomed by everyone.


Yep, I guarantee you going this route will gap-fill far faster and thus players will be more appreciative compared to waiting for new stuff each week. It feels like minor changes to a lot of items will have a better return on investment than just waiting on new items.

I also think the growing backlog of bugfixes and promised alterations to some items needs to now take on priority.

In fact, if it were me, I'd prioritize the rest of 2024's updates as: (in no particular order)

A. Revisiting items that were promised/mentioned as "we will eventually get to them)
B. Celerity Change
C. Big fixing a lot of recent items
D. Updating many older items slightly as I mentioned above for quick basic f2p gap-filling
E. Updates to subraces and fixing any issues (Sol NEko's burn/bleed eater doesn;t actually boost damage from bleed, for example..+ capping them)
F. bug fixing T3's
G. Continue updating class armorsa nd making master variants
H. A few nerfs long planned and foretold.



Grace Xisthrith -> RE: AQ-Stat Overhaul Project (2/21/2024 12:00:15)

I'd love to have a tiny bit of discussion, or perhaps staff clarification, on the DEX Proc bonus, as I think it's a bit odd in its implementation.

DEX Style bonus to weapon procs:

Style Bonus: weapon specials and bow-type attacks get a bonus based on the item's proc rate: +15*LOG(rate)/LOG(100)

This is what's written, and what's happening in game (tested with 0 damage variance weapons + 0 stats (used melee weapon with 0 STR but 250 DEX)). 100 Proc weapons gain ~15% damage boost on their special, while lower proc weapons, take 20 Proc weapons for example, gain a ~9.7% boost on their special.

My main question is, is it intended that this Proc rate bonus doesn't take into account the amount of turns it takes a proc to likely happen?

100 Procs happen every turn, so as you'd expect, they get their +15% output each turn. But 20 Procs still only get +9.7% damage even though their special happens every five turns on average. This means that while a 100 Proc gets 15% per turn, a 20 Proc gets (9.7 x 150%=~164% > 164-150 = ~14 > 14/5 = ~2.9) 2.9% melee per turn. So, while the damage boost itself follows the log ratio, the actual output is further divided by weapon proc, meaning any actual boost to sub 50 procs is negligible.

So my main question is, is it intended for lower proc weapons to be weaker twice (once in the log formula, once in the procs per turn)? If so, then that's all good, but it should be noted this provides only a placebo to use sub 100 greater than 0 Proc weapons, rather than value that would give even situational benefit.

If that isn't intended, I think the two easiest ways to remedy it would be to have the damage bonus apply on all attacks of weapons with procs (so a 20 Proc weapon would get 4 turns of 109.7x damage, and 1 turn of ~1.64x damage), or to have the proc damage boost multiplied by (100 / Proc chance).

Either way, I'd just love some clarification on if this is how the proc boost is going to end up, or if that double penalty for low proc rates is intentional or not



Lorekeeper -> RE: AQ-Stat Overhaul Project (2/21/2024 12:18:02)

Yes, that ratio is intended. Please bear in mind that lower proc rates provide higher power in the first place.



Grace Xisthrith -> RE: AQ-Stat Overhaul Project (2/21/2024 15:19:30)

Nice to know, thank you for clarifying. Those calculations I listed were with the lower proc rates = higher power accounted for, and are what's happening now in game, so 20 Procs essentially get a ~2.9% melee boost overall rather than ~9.7%, because they only get the boost one in five turns on its proc, although they get ~1.097 x 150% melee rather than the 1.15 x 110% melee 100 procs get, they get it 1/5th as often. Just clarifying for future reading




Sapphire -> RE: AQ-Stat Overhaul Project (2/21/2024 18:44:34)

Hm.

If only 100 proc gets the full 15% style bonus, can we legitimately claim that Dex gets a 15% style bonus? It's only a subset.

I kind of think in retrospect, maybe all procs gets the 15%.

5% goes from 300% to 345%
10% goes from 200% to 230%
20% goes from 150% to 172.5%



Sub 100 proc feels underwhelming



Ogma -> RE: AQ-Stat Overhaul Project (2/21/2024 19:04:10)

Aren't the extreme usually favored? 100% proc to go with FD, which the style bonus cater to, 0% proc to go with FO, which doesn't really bonus because they match well together (especially armor with skill). Any thing between these two are chance based, as such cannot be relied on.



ruleandrew -> RE: AQ-Stat Overhaul Project (2/22/2024 1:27:34)

Suppose a character train 250 STR and 250 DEX.
Style bonus (0 % proc weapon) is worth 15 % melee from STR style bonus and 5 % melee from DEX style bonus.
Style bonus (20 % proc weapon) is worth 13 % melee from STR style bonus and 7.9273 % melee (correct to 4 decimal points) from DEX style bonus.
Style bonus (40 % proc weapon) is worth 11 % melee from STR style bonus and 11.0077 % melee (correct to 4 decimal points) from DEX style bonus.
Style bonus (100 % proc weapon) is worth 5 % melee from STR style bonus and 20 % melee from DEX style bonus.

I did understand what the staff was trying to achieve with STR style bonus and DEX style bonus. Characters using 20 % proc ranged weapons should train both DEX and STR.

Purposed DEX style bonus
- Style Bonus: weapon specials and bow-type attacks get a bonus based on the item's proc rate: + 15 * LOG(rate + 1) / LOG(101).
- - Attacks that are tagged as weapon attacks/weapon specials but don't receive effects from your weapon (e.g. Lt. Lore's Shield) are also boosted by this, with an assumed proc rate of 100.
- Style Bonus: Attacks gain +4.25 BTH

This modified DEX style bonus is designed to avoid issues with very low proc weapons.



tuthantunthan -> RE: AQ-Stat Overhaul Project (2/29/2024 7:22:24)

The status "Spriitual Seed of Heal" sometimes turned into "Regenerative", which heals much less. Healing Seeds is not a debuff, it shouldn't be removed by the LUK bonus.



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