Discussion about No-drops: Where should they stand? (Full Version)

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JhyShy -> Discussion about No-drops: Where should they stand? (3/30/2025 10:50:25)

Hello, so it is no secret that No-drops are a core part of AQ. However being in the community there have been differing ideas on where they should stand compared to the rest of the items in AQ. I figured to throw my own spin on how to make No-drops more useful to be able to stand toe to toe with other items via my Rhyworks ( 1, 2, 3). But making them had me thinking about that question even more. "Where should they stand" and "How good should they be". So with that said hopefully these questions can be answered by the staff either individually or by their unanimous decision. And I'd also love to hear the community's thoughts on their opinions on the questions I'll be laying down and how they think the No-drops should be.

1. Is the thought or notion that No-drops should be okay at best come from the staff back then or is this mostly from player consensus?

2. Should No-drops not be allowed to have skills?

3. Should lean changing be allowed for No-drops or should they only stick to one lean? (For example, being able to change the lean for Ultra guardian plate from FO to FD independently in a hub like the guardian tower the same way you can change the no drop's element)

4. To continue from the last question, should no-drops be separated from builds and put into themes instead? (For example in my Rhyworks, where lean changing was possible, armors aren't built upon the main stats but are built on themes and mechanics, a warrior can use Deft armor of AWE for example)

5. Are no-drop wands, and bows off the table?

6. Should a No-drop tome exist? And would it be possible?

7. Has elementalizing no-drops always been a guardian only feature? If not, would it be possible for adventurers to have it as well? Even just for the weapons

8. What armor right now would be a good benchmark on how good No-drops should be?

I'd love to hear about others opinions and how you would improve upon no-drops to put them in your desired spot of power and item spot.

NOTE: THIS IS NOT A DISCUSSION TO PRESSURE THE STAFF INTO A NO-DROP UPDATE.
This thread is made to know the thought process of the staff and players opinions on the no-drops so staff can see the opinions of players on the subject in one place.



CH4OT1C! -> RE: Discussion about No-drops: Where should they stand? (3/30/2025 14:22:22)

To briefly run through some of my own opinions:

(1) Putting aside whether the notion originates with the staff or the community, I think no-drops should be closer to "ok" rather than incredible. I definitely think there's an incentive to make them good so that players purchase Guardian. With that said, they can't be top of the line, otherwise players wouldn't be incentivised to play quests for non-Battleon gear.
(2) Yes, if it helps to improve them.
(3) No. We have different no-drops for that.
(4) We have one set for FO (Ultraguardian) and one set for FD (Awe). I think this distinction is sufficient (provided we get a Spellcaster version too).
(5) I certainly hope not. We should have Bow/Wand versions of ALL no-drop weapons.
(6) No. We can cover FD mages with a wand.
(7) It's a great incentive for Adventurers to buy Guardian, so I'd be against it.
(8) Fat and Tacky Santa. Modification to your standard attack + a decent skill should be perfectly sufficient in terms of complexity.

The most important thing in my opinion would be tome/wand versions. The existing no-drops aren't necessarily great, but at least those builds have no-drops.



Red Blood -> RE: Discussion about No-drops: Where should they stand? (3/30/2025 15:14:06)

(1.) They shouldn't be the top of the line although a decent bit of effort should be used to keep them in the good enough category at least with the main standard no drops. Ideally they all would all be made with modern game play in mind as I can tell you Steel plate's mono hit kills it in boss content given warriors lack 100 procs outside a retired standard to give it more hits. Granted going back to adjust all of them would be a major project so likely best to focus on just the basics vs going after every temp armor.
(2.) All for them having skills even if it's something like an Mp barrier, or an sp attack that doesn't break any molds.
(3.) May as well just craft a personal no drop vs watering it down to be generic to fit all play styles with a lean swap if that is the lone change.
(4.) Just provide a spellcaster lean option for everyone and we should be good.
(5.) Let everyone carry what should be their basic gear outside a starter tome. Also provides more rp if you don't need to fully compromise a character idea due to needing to carry a weapon that sticks out as not belonging.
(6.) It would be an interesting experiment but the amount of scaling attached to that weapon+ spells could be an issue let alone deciding what to fill it in with.
(7.) Could always offer a sort of trial run of it akin to travel passes, but also make it not so easy to redeem/ put it on a cool down to get them hooked. Little taste of another Guardian feature, but the downside is big enough to tempt a purchase. Up to the team if coding all that would be worth it though.
(8.) Quester's Heavy gunner wouldn't be a bad armor to look at for the idea of a utility skill, and attack one although the attack could certainly use more hits to deal with caps+ should look at the equipped weapon for stats.



Yozai -> RE: Discussion about No-drops: Where should they stand? (3/30/2025 16:42:34)

I wish we could get a building for our houses, where we could buy temp gear for it.
So we could go to said building and equip it, just like we can eqiup the horse armors in the stables.

Ive never been a big fan of no drops, aside from UGS would love a bow/wand version of that.

Else just some more lean options.



ming shuen -> RE: Discussion about No-drops: Where should they stand? (3/30/2025 20:16:24)

I support nivp's idea of the Tome of Awe and Wand / Spoon of Awe respectively. Meanwhile, if y'all could do a SC Armour as a no-drop, that would be pretty lit.



NightofLight -> RE: Discussion about No-drops: Where should they stand? (3/30/2025 21:07:30)

1. I think No Drops should be usuable but not overbearing making them to good would make future item design harder but thats kind of the case with most items in general not a no drop only thing.
2.i think No Drops should be allowed to have skills we technically have a few with skills like Armor of Awe and Black Dragon Rider
3.I would keep them to 1 lean just let there be multiple options of FO/FD/SC armors even if they are temps.
4.Destinct leans for armor types is fine tbh Ultraguardian covers FO, Armor of Awe covers FD just need a SC option you can use no matter your Mainstat.
5.Warpforce has a 100 proc Gun can probably just port it over and a Wand could maybe compress a spell while having a proc chance on Attack.
6.Wand should be good enough, don't need a tome.
7.I think its Guardian only as a incentive to become a Guardian therefore I would respect it. Could maybe make the Adventurer nodrops FO/FD/SC though so they arent super far behind.
8.Honestly a Basic armor with a usuable skill would probably be enough for me and about 3 hits on Attack.

Bonus. One Idea I had was to rework the Rider armors to make them more like Black Dragon Rider, have them cover a lean maybe Pegasid or Unicorn could become SC and compress a basic Spell and maybe Nightmare Rider could be FO and cover a basic Weapon Skill or Elelock. Also would fix up Black Dragon Rider to use the correct SP cost for Melee/Ranged its using Mage costs despite checking weapontype.



Dardiel -> RE: Discussion about No-drops: Where should they stand? (3/31/2025 12:49:23)

quote:

1. Is the thought or notion that No-drops should be okay at best come from the staff back then or is this mostly from player consensus?

I don't know the factual answer to who solidified the idea, but I think it's good design to give the player one set of gear that's solid but not exciting.

quote:

2. Should No-drops not be allowed to have skills?

I think 1-2 skills that are simple and generally useful would be a positive, like basic "weapon skill that spends 50% melee for a status" level of depth.

quote:

3. Should lean changing be allowed for No-drops or should they only stick to one lean? (For example, being able to change the lean for Ultra guardian plate from FO to FD independently in a hub like the guardian tower the same way you can change the no drop's element)

I think lean changing in general is a bit funky so I would oppose it in any situation where it's possible to just make one armor for each lean. I could support some kind of lean-swapping nodrop if the lean swap is given proper cost rather than being a 1/battle toggle but that seems like more of a pain than just letting there be a nodrop of each lean.

quote:

4. To continue from the last question, should no-drops be separated from builds and put into themes instead? (For example in my Rhyworks, where lean changing was possible, armors aren't built upon the main stats but are built on themes and mechanics, a warrior can use Deft armor of AWE for example)

Assuming the lean identity of each armor is unique enough in practice, I imagine that they wouldn't need any extra designs to separate them.

quote:

5. Are no-drop wands, and bows off the table?

I think those would be important to FD nodrops, so I would hope they're an option.

quote:

6. Should a No-drop tome exist? And would it be possible?

I imagine there's room for an interesting debate on "should mana recovery in the nodrop slot be allowed"; I could see arguments in either direction so I have no strong opinion at the moment.

quote:

7. Has elementalizing no-drops always been a guardian only feature? If not, would it be possible for adventurers to have it as well? Even just for the weapons

I'm on board with elementalizing staying a Guardian QoL feature.

quote:

8. What armor right now would be a good benchmark on how good No-drops should be?

I think basically any armor that comes out and makes people go "it's solid but not optimal", like I mentioned above about skills; doing generically good standalone things rather than being anything to build around.



Zennistrad -> RE: Discussion about No-drops: Where should they stand? (3/31/2025 14:29:57)

It used to be that subraces for Guardians could fill the niche of a no-drop armor with strong skills - I still use the Werewolf form for my Paladin warrior character as his Earth armor. Spellcasters do seem to be left particularly in the dust though, with the Vampire subrace being pretty meh compared to newer spellcaster lean armors.

The Blade of Awe is mostly fine, SP Vampire is quite strong when paired with the right armors (Werewolf in particular again), and PowerWord Die circumvents the usual issue of triggering specials on weapon-based skills by just making it an auto-win if it does. The Staff of Awe I think could be mildly tweaked to better support casters, but the Dagger and Spear are good as well.

I also think that no-drop armors could stand to be updated slightly with their own skills, with Ultraguardian being more offensively-inclined and Armor of Awe being defensive. My general idea is something like:

quote:


Mighty Armor of Awe: Defensive lean, takes a -5% damage penalty on weapon attacks to grant minor regeneration. Comes with a quick-cast healing spell that costs SP and scales with END.

Deft Armor of Awe: Defensive lean, takes +5/1.4% damage to grant a minor MRM boost. Comes with a skill that costs SP and boosts blocking for a turn, and grants an effect that heals on block.

Insightful Armor of Awe: Same as it currently is, except it also gets -3 MRM to gain minor mana regeneration each turn.



Mighty Ultraguardian Plate: Offensive lean, takes a penalty to blocking to deal slightly increased damage with weapon attacks. Comes with a toggle skill that switches your standard attack to four hits and grants a small chance to Daze. If elementalized, the skill also locks your attack to your armor element and grants elecomp to damage.

Deft Ultraguardian Leathers: Takes increased damage to get +3 MRM. Comes with an SP skill that grants you DefBoost for that turn (not quickcast), and then unleashes a weapon attack on your next turn with increased damage based on how many hits you dodged. If elementalized, the counterattack is locked to your armor's element, and the skill gets an elecomp reduction to SP cost.

Insightful Ultraguardian Robes: Spellcaster-lean armor. Gives a penalty to weapon damage to regenerate MP when attacking with a weapon. Has an SP toggle which causes spells to inflict Elevuln. If not elementalized, the Elevuln is omni-elemental, otherwise it's Elevuln of your armor's element. Elevuln is stronger when elementalized.


There are going to be many stronger options for every element compared to elementalized equipment for all of these, but I think with something like this the no-drops will be strong enough that there's reason to use them.



KhalJJ -> RE: Discussion about No-drops: Where should they stand? (4/1/2025 12:11:07)

quote:


1. Is the thought or notion that No-drops should be okay at best come from the staff back then or is this mostly from player consensus?

Unsure on origins, but my 2c is most people, myself included, think no-drops probably shouldn't be top tier, at least initially. Having said that, something like BoA with a lengthy quest association I'd be happy to see as BiS, and I feel it is this for some specific purposes currently, but perhaps not enough.

quote:


2. Should No-drops not be allowed to have skills?

I think so, that'd be fine. Agree with other sentiments here of, not too many though.

quote:


3. Should lean changing be allowed for No-drops or should they only stick to one lean? (For example, being able to change the lean for Ultra guardian plate from FO to FD independently in a hub like the guardian tower the same way you can change the no drop's element)

This seems good, for player flexibility. Just lean-swap whilst in the armor would be too much imo.

quote:


4. To continue from the last question, should no-drops be separated from builds and put into themes instead? (For example in my Rhyworks, where lean changing was possible, armors aren't built upon the main stats but are built on themes and mechanics, a warrior can use Deft armor of AWE for example)

Eh, I do not mind no-drops being fairly build specific. It could be cool if they were themed/build-agnostic as stated, but I wouldn't want this to to get in the way of good no-drop theming and could take more work.

quote:


5. Are no-drop wands, and bows off the table?

Bows would certainly good, wands I don't know about.

quote:


6. Should a No-drop tome exist? And would it be possible?

I think, no, a tome seems too specialised. Unless it was only a very specific no-drop that you had to unlock access to, like a Tome of Awe, but I struggle to see that working nicely

quote:


7. Has elementalizing no-drops always been a guardian only feature? If not, would it be possible for adventurers to have it as well? Even just for the weapons

Unsure, but I do lean on the side of keeping this to guardians.

quote:


8. What armor right now would be a good benchmark on how good No-drops should be?

Hm good question. Something like Typhon Shard seems like it might have too much going on, but if you want it to actually be a viable option its going to have to be around that.


Maybe I'll add other thoughts later



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