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4/9/2011 22:45:13   
Competition
Member

@AQWPlayer I've seen you commenting about varium in most threads concerning OPness. If you can't handle the losses, just buy some (if you can't, theres always AExtras.)

Ontopic: I don't see the problem with heal looping. If they have high HP, they'll have low stats. Simple as that.

< Message edited by Competition -- 4/9/2011 22:46:21 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 26
4/9/2011 22:49:48   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


Mages are not weak. The leading player in today's 1 vs 1 leaderboard is a mage. He's even above Bluebird No. 1 on today's leaderboard, albeit with a ~75% win rate. However tech mages can have an incredibly high win rate, well above 90%, and still win the 1 vs 1 championship. Mr.Pablo Jr. (not sure if the name is entirely right, I think there's a 'Canadian' in it somewhere) is an example of such a mage.

Heal looping is not the only viable build for tech mages. Xendran was good enough to come up with a build like that. Other good builds do exist; you just have to find them yourself. You can't just rely on people like Xendran to do your thinking for you. Tech mages, more than any class, need to think hard about a good build to use. They require, as per their name, a great amount of intelligence and thought. Mere copying like most mercenaries do is not going to work.

< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 4/9/2011 22:53:17 >
Post #: 27
4/9/2011 22:52:09   
jegaggin
Member

yah thats because hes been playing 24 hrs
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 28
4/9/2011 23:16:01   
Lectrix
Member

Hmmm.

Ok, can we at least agree that Tech Mages aren't the strongest Class? Especially if you compare Non-Varium Tech Mages to Non-Varium Bounty Hunters and Non-Varium Mercs?

I never said that Tech Mages were/are dependent on Heal Looping. There ARE may other great Builds out there. However, Tech Mages have a harder time coming up with effective Builds. And that shouldn't happen. The Classes are supposed to be Balanced. BALANCED. Balanced, as in "a state of equilibrium".

If Tech Mages can't come up with good Builds as easily as Bounty Hunters or Mercs, then clearly, we don't have balance.

And that's why Heal Looping (a more practical Heal Looping) needs to return. Non-Varium Tech Mages lack the Stat Points that are needed in a good, 4 Cooldown Field Medic Heal Loop. And I don't know about you guys, but I'm definitely not seeing as many good Tech Mages out there.

I know Tech Mages are supposed to be able to think, but that doesn't mean the game should be harder for them.

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Lectrix (HS)

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AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 29
4/10/2011 0:18:46   
BloodRainbow
Member

When classes make builds that are "OPed" its mainly because there using there passive abilities to the fullest extent. Mercs work great with high str builds because they can cover a large portion of the defence that they lose by pooring all there points in str because of hybrid, works same way with sup mercs. And the 5 focuse tech/bot/bunker build works becuase that allows them to have a tank build that also hits very hard. So they three most useful merc builds all revolve around hybrid. BH str builds work so well because they have 2 passive skills that work perfect together, it allows them to hit more efficiently and hit hard so that they can regain more HP. Tech mages heal looping build was/is the most efficient way to use there passive becuase in order for rerout to work they need a lot of hp. So the reason that caster builds are not as effective is becasue in order for the spells to be strong enough to do enough of damage they need alot of dex and tech and they require alot of energy, which all takes away for health and with low health they can use there passive to its full extent.
Epic  Post #: 30
4/10/2011 2:45:03   
DarkNight1223
Member

Heal Looping is not Tech Mages most powerful weapon/build/strategie
Post #: 31
4/10/2011 2:53:45   
Angels Holocaust
Member

It's good to see that another member of the community has seen the error of this update. Mages went from being garbage to now scum of the earth. The class is nothing more than a joke now. Heal looping was the only viable build and that's been long gone. I do have to say that mages are no better than dummies not only are they defenseless but they now exist only as free win fodder.
Post #: 32
4/10/2011 2:57:11   
saaaaaaaaaaaaa
Member

I have an extreme winning streak with my non-varium 27 tm[except for me trying out the boss npcs]i even bt a lv 32 VARIUM MERC cause his calculations were terrible...
AQW Epic  Post #: 33
4/10/2011 3:02:03   
Lectrix
Member

@Angels: Lol, that's EXACTLY what happened to my Tech Mage (then again, I guess i shouldn't have sold his Armor...)

In some cases, Tech Mages are still able to come up with decent Builds and pull off a few wins. But they're nothing compared to Mercs or Bounty Hunters. From what I saw in my last few 2v2 Battles, Non-Varium Mercs seem to be doing better than Varium Tech Mages (yeah, Mercs are STILL overpowered in 2v2).

@Saaaa...aa..a... you get the idea: Who knows, maybe you have the next great Tech Mage Build. The point is, most Tech Mages aren't doing that great these days.

< Message edited by Lectrix -- 4/10/2011 3:05:01 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 34
4/10/2011 3:03:10   
Lord GaGa
Member

I agree, im not being kokky here but since ive got varium and level 30-32, ive never lost to a f2p TM.
Where as mercs can get lucky with str buils, and bh's can rarely with win alot of blocks.
But TM's get rounded up like sheeps by bounty hunters, and repetitively
smashed by str mercs (varium and non varium)
they also stand no chance against merc tank builds with 5 focus
but pweaonlt i think we need back 3 tuns to heal instead of 4
because i can bring back some of my smexy suport 1v1 builds
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 35
4/10/2011 3:04:51   
Vitodawn
Member

Here is why you guys think tech mages are weak, and it's true:
Merc: str abuse is still viable, and sup and tech builds are also game deciders,
Bounty: smoke and physicals are impossible to counter cause you can't block smoke, and you can't block while smoked. It's an all around safety.
Now, techie: malf and plasma is less viable, as they are generally less deadly than bounty equivalents, and there are so many skills that must be used in conjunction that it is impossible to cover up(eg. Plasma, lightning, energy rain, supercharged, reroute, and malf)
More detailed:malf plasma lightning is alright, but they both do surprisingly little damage,
Malf and energy weps plus sword:can be blocked, unlike BH,
Lightning and plasma and supercharge: if the other guy has high resist, then you're finished.

Another way again:if you put points into your spells(plasma, lightning, etc)then you will run out of energy. Reroute means you won't have points for malf. Using malf means you have to pick 2(or 3) of the following, plasma,lightning,supercharge,reroute. Like a pentagon with 4 sides; one is missing.if you run reroute then you have only one skill to invest in, if you run an all-spell build then you can run out of energy, if you opt for the weapon approach and skip the spells, then you can be blocked. By now you should see my equation.

< Message edited by Vitodawn -- 4/10/2011 3:09:27 >


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Epic  Post #: 36
4/10/2011 3:11:07   
Lectrix
Member

@Lord GaGa: Ugh, I almost forgot about 5 Focus Tank Mercs. I saw quite a few of them today in my 2v2 matches. They pretty much determine who wins and who loses. Malfunction has almost no effect on them
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 37
4/10/2011 3:36:09   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


@Vitodawn

Bounty hunters can be blocked, even when you are smoked. You just have a lower chance of blocking. And you do not have to use ALL your spells even if you are a caster mage; it is quite common for mages to use just three of your six skills listed: malfunction, reroute and plasma bolt.

With the weapon approach, assuming you somehow get blocked every time you use your primary weapon/robot (which is highly improbable, even if you are facing a varium bounty hunter who has smoked you and has SA), you can just use malf-gun-auxillary-plasma bolt-gun.

If you opt not to use the plasma bolt in between, for example because you happen to be using a sword, you can and probably will have to make up for the cooldown by healing or using a defensive skill. Of course, the attack sequence will most likely be malf-defense matrix/technician (though technician is not commonly used)-gun-auxillary-malf-heal(heal and malf are interchangeable)-gun-auxillary. You won't need to use your primary weapon unless you are using malfunction and thus any blocks will have a negligible effect.

@Lectrix

Non-varium mages, bounty hunters and mercs are actually about equal. I think it is quite evident that non-varium mages are about equal to non-varium bounty hunters, and I suspect that the mages are actually stronger because their main attacks are unblockable and are generally stronger (deadly aim, higher support = more aux damage, plasma bolt). Furthermore, non-varium bounty hunters have a further disadvantage when fighting mercs: hybrid armour. I would actually say that the non-varium bounty hunter is the true weakest one in this game, a problem underappreciated because of the prevalence of their varium counterparts.

Some may argue that massacre is much more powerful than any equivalent skill a tech mage has, but it can be easily countered with defense matrix. Moreover smokescreen can be nerfed by malfunction, and 5 focus bounty hunters, which are much deadlier than strength bounty hunters, are now endangered due to the change in the effects of focus. Of course, a critical massacre would defeat just about anyone...but the odds of that occuring is extremely low.

Non-varium mercs may seem superior to non-varium mages, however mages, unlike mercs, are capable of consistent high-damage attacks due to their malfunction, and more so since the focus effect for all attacks has been removed. Non-varium tech mercs are virtually non-existent and those that do exist have sufficiently low tech to be countered by malfunction. The greatest danger posed by these mercs is their wild card: bunker buster.

Its defense ignoring and high critical ratio make it, according to Xendran, the most powerful skill. It would be wise to set up a shield or make sure you heal just before you think the opponent will rage. A rage bunker buster critical is what makes mercs able to defeat varium players; its unpredictability is overwhelming. Assimilation might be able to counter this, but more importantly make sure you have enough HP to avoid being killed at once, and finish the opponent off. (The opponent should be on his knees when he uses his trump card).

This is possible as your malfunction will nerf the opponent's bunker buster considerably, and make him delay its use. In the meantime the mage can do as much damage as possible, while the merc's attacks will be considerably weaker, especially since the focus effect is now removed. A caster merc (bunker buster + artillery strike) is generally weak and can be easily countered through a high-level heal.

Support mercs are capable of only two strong attacks, and only one after their artillery strike. The damage of a non-varium mage's plasma bolt will easily match that of a non-varium support merc's artillery strike since the mages have the assistance of malfunction. The battle will not be an overwhelming loss for the mage in this case, but a tense battle characterized by skill in anticipating rage and knowing when to heal, when to put up a shield and when to use assimilation (which is especially useful against support mercs). The win can go either way and will be greatly influenced by luck.

The same goes for non-varium strength mercs. Such mercs will have to use stength boost and will have low defenses, more so due to the recent update. It is more likely that the mages, with more support, will start first, and will be able to take out about half of their opponent's health before the merc gets a chance to attack. The stun+zerk combo will be deadly, but not sufficient to defeat the mage, which should have foreseen this and set up a shield. The battle will again come down to a tense finish, where a single block, deflection or critical will be enough to determine the winner.

I think that it should be brought to greater awareness that not only can strength mercs stun you, you can stun them, using overload. It need not be a high-level one, just a skill that can delay the danger and potentially turn the tables.

In conclusion mages are not easy prey; they are just as powerful as mercs, and are able to play on an equal level as them. This conclusion is, I feel, equally valid when applied to varium mages, as their potential is illuminated by outstanding players within their class, who, as mentioned in an earlier post, have both a high win ratio and a capability of achieving the 1 vs 1 championship, not just once, but multiple times.

Of course, this observation is limited to 1 vs 1 battles, but I would like to point out that the win ratio of any 2 vs 2 player, merc or mage, is similarly low due to the unpredictability of partner pairing.

I also feel, Lectrix, that 'balance' in the EpicDuel context has little to do with the difficulty of coming up with a good build. 'Fairness' and 'Equality' are distinctly different concepts. I think that your definition of 'balance' is closer to 'equality', in which case balance is impossible due to differing skills between the classes, varium and the luck factor. Different classes have different defining characteristcs: mercs are straightforward fighters, while mages are more strategic and fluid. The problem with many is that they are playing the tech mages as they would a mercenary or bounty hunter, which would be ineffective.

< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 4/10/2011 4:24:16 >
Post #: 38
4/10/2011 4:26:39   
Lectrix
Member

@Silver Sky Magician: Well, that was a... well thought-out analysis. Very impressive

Anyway, I think the main problem with Tech Mages is that they're slow. As several people have already mentioned, Tech Mages are able to perform quite a few powerful attacks... given the time. While Mercs and Bounty Hunters can do large amounts of damage on their first turn, Tech Mages that I've seen in 2v2 often have to use Field Medic (or some other defensive Skill) before or directly after using Malfunction. Therefore, they are slowed down, and will often end up losing the match.

A 3 turn Cooldown Field Medic would easily solve this problem by giving Tech Mages a chance to extend the length of a battle.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 39
4/10/2011 5:33:13   
DarkNight1223
Member

They aren't bad, but they are slightly weaker than the others...which I guess it makes them bad. People who think they are smart think there is a way to fix it, but deep inside, they don't know. We have to face it that Mages aren't as good. The super is UP, the agility makes them useless, the most balanced stat build(AKA 5 focus) doesn't suit them, and the skills are terrible.

Besides a caster mage, no lvl 31 - 33 would use 2+ plasma rain/bolt (unless the're out of there mind) As said in my previous post, heal looping isn't the best, there's still a very powerful mage build out there, but no one has discovered it :|
Post #: 40
4/10/2011 9:19:49   
BlueKatz
Member

Mage is even worst now, I believe they ruined the Tank build when they nerfed stat, also mean Techni skill, it's a very important skill in my strategy :'( now it's ruined
and caster skill tree side is extremely weak
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 41
4/10/2011 14:16:23   
Elf Priest JZaanu
Constructive!


I have personally competed well against all variations of bhs and mercenaries. Mage builds are not Auto-win, so thought must be planned exactly how all skills are used. Our class is not a true heavy damage producer and it takes time to develop the strategy within the game.

I don't like bringing any attention to any individual, but it seem it fits well into this topic.

The photo you see is a tank merc with 5 focus build I think. We had dueled three times. All the matches were long in duration 10-15 rounds. This individual won the first two matches with opportune play to victor against me. On the third one, I played my normal pattern, and I slowly broke down her build and made her reach beyond where her build was designed to go. I think this match was 18 rounds. I finally victored in the end, and like with the previous matches, comments of frustration and annoyance was expressed. Balanced smart builds by mages are not beautiful to look at, but effective. Use the class as it was designed to be. If you choose for how many and how fast, then you will gain your victors but will have low percentage. If you want to make a difference in the game and have bhs and mercs adjust to your style of play, then be annoying and be persistent.

For the few mages I have seen during my stint in 1v1 this past day, I am extremely happy to see you all, and continue to compete.
http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab150/Jzaanu/MERCmage.jpg



For the individual in this photo, these were actually more of the nicer of the many comments I received during my play yesterday.

On a side note, I just finished a 2v2 match and a lvl 32 merc with only 600 1v1 total matches. He told me, he never lost to a mage in 1v1. The new generation of bhs and mercs feels our class is a stepping stone. It is your choice to let them feel like that. I will do my best to compete regardless if it is a victor or loss. I will do my best to compete regardless if it is 1 round or 50 rounds.

I also hope the developers create a better system to award players who care about quality over quantity. With the current system, it breeds simple auto-win play. When good quality duels are rewarded then players will actually think about making fabulous builds and enjoying the strategy in competing.

~JZaanu








< Message edited by JZaanu -- 4/10/2011 14:17:43 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 42
4/10/2011 15:19:15   
Fay Beeee
Member

^
I have always loved my fights with you (Mage) and me BH)
Long but thoughtful play - win or loose . It did really not matter who won. The battles were great. And we had fun.

You are a true mage, who thinks a lot about the build you have and the tactics you use.

We were all hit by the last update. It is a time of change. As I think it should be in a 'live' game. If I did not want change, I could have bought a boxed game to play. I chose this, so therefore accept the changes and try to change with the game (not always successfully lol)

But onward and upward.

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Epic  Post #: 43
4/10/2011 15:26:20   
wario the great
Member

quote:

Have no fear! I'm a Mage again!


have no fear im always a mage!

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Once A Mage Always A Mage: Zeal Overlord My Character Page! xD
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AQW Epic  Post #: 44
4/10/2011 15:37:23   
Nebula
Member

@JZaanu Well said. Pesonally, I had to switch to another class for a while because I had no decent energy aux so I couldn't make a build that I actually wanted to use, now that I have one I'm a mage again and I'm trying to make builds that will give everyone a run for their money ( which I have done successfully with a few builds, especially a support one which got me a 89.7% win:loss when I grinded to level 33, however Mercs can tank me out completely ). But I'm always looking for other ways to make better builds.
Post #: 45
4/10/2011 15:37:26   
Calogero
Member

are Mages ' weaker ' than BH's and Mercs?
Yes
Are they Extremely underpowered? No, they do need a little change on some things to make it better but it isn't Patheticly underpowered.

I have no 100% win rate but I am able to beat up a few of those OP'd builds


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AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 46
4/10/2011 15:57:59   
wario the great
Member

if mages are uped y have i got 95% on daily?
mages u just need to try harder thnk of a unique build
btw not all npcs 75% real fights

< Message edited by wario the great -- 4/10/2011 16:03:34 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 47
4/10/2011 19:14:33   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


my mage build is working fine as of late i just have to notice all of my options and be like a stratigest and plan out four moves in advance the build even took down George Lowe against his crits and blocks and i never critted or blocked
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 48
4/10/2011 23:22:53   
Lectrix
Member

@JZaanu: Well said, though I still find it unfair that Tech Mages (usually) need to extend the length of their Battles in order to win.

@andy123: I like the way you worded your post. Yes, Tech Mages aren't "pathetically underpowered". But nevertheless, they're still underpowered.

I don't think Heal Looping would make Tech Mages extremely overpowered. Mercs and Bounty Hunters would simply do more damage at the beginning of Battles, while Tech Mages would change the length of a Battle to their advantage. It's not like Mercs and Bounty Hunters can't do any damage after the first three turns.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 49
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