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RE: Mercenary: The Unjustly Labeled Class

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4/24/2013 19:01:00   
ur going to fail
Member

I don't think this is worth discussing, the class is what it is and this game isn't the picture the dev's are trying to make. They have big ideas and we are not even close to the end. What I'm saying is look at the big picture, to much is yet to come and sitting here trying to make something out of nothing is not worth while. When you start telling people they can make something out of nothing, then it is very hard to resist. Once they're on your back they are there to stay.
Epic  Post #: 26
4/24/2013 19:26:37   
drekon
Retired ED Guest Artist
quote:

Bunker is blockable and provides...

-.- Thanks for giving me a heart attack. I'll send you the bill.

Balancing skill EP requirements is something I practice with all classes that don't have Reroute and assumed most experienced players did it as well. While the Mercenary class provides a good assortment of skills that are effective at low/medium levels, using them all effectively would require at least a 4 Focus build. I agree with Goony. Mercenary needs some kind of buff for 1v1, but I'd rather see several buffs to Blood Mage sooner than Mercenary.

_____________________________
Epic  Post #: 27
4/24/2013 21:09:40   
frogbones
Banned


 Actually, forget my earlier posts. Merc is not UP at all. People just don't know how to use the class. Keep it how it is.



(The last thing I want is for Merc to get buffed and then see all the zombie lemmings class hop to it. I actually enjoy playing an UP class. It's a challenge. It takes skill and strategy.)

There's no skill required in being a 5 focus hunter, using Azrael promo gear, or being a Support hunter with a high Massacre. But don't get me wrong. Those builds are good; they yield high win percentages. The thing is, they're not challenging to use. At all. So for the Win % Worshipers, those are perfect builds and classes to use.

For those of us who prefer quality of wins over quantity of wins, though, who relish the challenge of being at a disadvantage from the outset, who take pride in outplaying opponents who buy their wins (promo gear), well, Merc is the obvious choice.





AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 28
4/24/2013 21:57:07   
Xendran
Member

quote:

Actually, forget my earlier posts. Merc is not UP at all. People just don't know how to use the class. Keep it how it is.


Goony has been using merc for 3+ years. Me and him both agree that despite it having some overpowered skills, the class in itself remains underpowered.
Not that it's relevant, becuase this game needs either a full rewrite of every skill and stat, or it's going to continue on its crash course and stop being profitable.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 29
4/24/2013 21:59:00   
Mother1
Member

@ Frogbones

While your posts contradicts itself the worst way to get something buffed or nerfed is to actually admit something is either OP or UP.

But I have to ask you though when you say promo's do you mean all promo's or just new newest ones?
Epic  Post #: 30
4/24/2013 22:11:17   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 @drekon: Thanks for catching that, I was in somewhat a rush to publish the post and may have made a few typos. I fixed it so it now says "unblockable" instead.

While merc can't replenish it's EP, it's quite a task for the opponent to remove it all. With minimal HP and generator at any level, it'll always take 2 emps, 3 atom smashes (unless you're absolutely strength abusing), and/or 3 assimilations. Either way, the only way of quickly removing a merc's energy is through EMP, which at high levels can cost a pretty fair sum of EP to use. Also, it doesn't give rage and takes an entire turn. Supposing BHs/CHs EMP me 2 times to take away all my energy, they'll spend around 30 energy total, and sacrifice 2 turns to do so. Keep in mind that those 2 turns also don't grant them rage while my 2 turns will. 3 Atom smashes will result in a risk of being blocked, a small sum of energy consumed, and no rage gain for 3 turns, which is quite a lot. 3 Assims may be worth it, but it just takes too long and the highest an opponent will probably get on a merc would be 2 assims. Therefore, I don't find the lack of ability to renew EP restricting at all because it simply costs too much for the opponent to go that route in a battle.

One advantage merc has is that less people play it. This results in less opponents knowing how to counter merc builds since they have less experience with it, which is somewhat ironic. Because merc is conceived as UP, the merc players gain a slight advantage because of the lack of other mercenary opponents which others can practice on.

Like frogbones, I enjoy playing a class/build that requires on-spot thinking; not like those BH focus builds who can simply rely on block luck for a large portion of their wins. I typically avoided those fast mainstream builds (except in the golden yeti tournament), and spent my time developing my own builds. Most of these builds took a lot of time to win but yielded a fairly high win ratio, so I was more than satisfied with this way of playing ED. Even though focus may seem like the only build anyone uses, I like it not because it's mainstream, but because it requires a different strategy for nearly every fight based off of the opponent. Of course, this lost some of its meaning on classes such as BH which just charge through opponents' HP with smoke and their only real defense is based off of their block luck and blood lust. I always dreaded fighting mass BHs back in delta because there were so many of them and they were really predictable and monotonous, but not once did I dread fighting a focus BM, because each one played differently and wasn't nearly as predictable as most other opponents.

< Message edited by Exploding Penguin -- 4/24/2013 22:12:17 >
Epic  Post #: 31
4/24/2013 22:58:23   
frogbones
Banned


 @mother1:

I know it seems I contradict myself. Just know that when I post, it's usually out of frustration. I'll try to clear things up:

When the devs release balance changes that make one class OP, it's frustrating.
When players class hop to said class just to exploit the OPness, it's frustrating.
When the devs take weeks, if not months, to fix their "balance" change, it's frustrating.
When players reap the rewards (more wins) during the time it takes the devs to fix their mistakes---and then think they are good players---it's frustrating.
When the devs release cores that are OP, it's frustrating.
When players buy said cores, it's frustrating.

As a longtime player who once financially supported the game, I now refuse to buy my wins by class hopping to the devs' next mistake, or purchasing $50 OP promo gear, or otherwise joining the herd.

But the fact is, most players don't feel the same way.

And that, as you can probably guess, is what frustrates me the most.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 32
4/24/2013 23:32:20   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 @frogbones: I pretty much agree with everything you said. What really annoys me is how lots of level 35s with very poor records can consistently beat me 2-3 times in a row, just because they exploit the overpowered attributes of certain skills or get their wins through luck. While I still financially support this game, I have to say that mercenary really is the class that has to use azrael's will in the most tactical way. Azrael's will can be abused on other classes quite easily for an unfair win, but with mercenary I have to argue that it's much harder to use in an overpowered manner. It, at least, requires good strategy to use as its applications on merc really are only psychological pressure with rage follow-ups and timing it just right so that you can waste the opponent's rage. If azrael's will had the same tactical application on other classes as it does on merc, I'm pretty sure more than half of its users wouldn't be able to use it correctly, and the core wouldn't be called overpowered.

One thing I've always done is play the game for fun, and for me fun is using strategy. Unless I have a very specific and hard-to-reach goal in mind, I'll stick to these morals. My friends are often telling me to change class to something like BH, and I consistently refuse them. I change class, even if it's to a vastly underpowered one, for fun and variety. This probably also explains why I'm consistently broke, which is due to constant retraining because I love testing out new builds and ideas.
Epic  Post #: 33
4/24/2013 23:47:46   
cool preston
Member

Mercenary is Underpowered in the sense that A-We have no EP regain B-Most of our attacks are blockable.

@Exploding Peguin-That's why your my freind ;D

Anyways-I have beena mercenary for going on 3 years now. I tell you it does get boring but every battle is fun and strategic. I am a 5 focus Gamma Bot build and my build is secret unless you meet me and get owned. I have tried Strength mercenary,support mercenary,tech mercenary,tech and str, and tech and support. I am very successful with all of these builds. If you know how to time everything correctly and know when to use your precious EP and when not to. You can will 90% of you battles. The key to merc is Consisistent High Damage. Some of out skills are less than desirable. Such as Adrenaline, but I have done some testing and actually it is fairly useful especially at level 1. In my opinion Mercenary is Underpowered to the masses who do not know how to use it's secrets and perks. I would agree it needs a buff (albeit small). Mercenary is probably the most versatile class in my opinion. Let's take a look at some of it's skills. Blood Commander-Good for dealing high damage while healing. Intimidate-Can be strategically applied for the maximum benefit Bunker Buster-Ignoring 20% Defenses is actually quite alot
if you have 40 Defense TOTAL it basically ignores 6-7 defense. Not to mention the 25% Critical Strike. Surgical Strike- As exploding mentioned good for healing and taking away rage. What more do you want? Even Zerker can be strategic.

The class is only as powerful as it's master. I am CounterNUKEmissile and I'm declaring to all the people out there Mercenary is not UP if you know how to use it. True you don't see many of us but when you see me you best turn your little tail and run the other way ;D

Duel on Guys.
MQ  Post #: 34
4/24/2013 23:56:50   
Mother1
Member

@ Frogbones

That would explain the constant hate I remember you having of cyber hunter's back when the class was OP (My first time meeting you), than later on your hate of strength BM when it was OP and now your hate of focus 5 builds.

As for the new promo's got one in a while not since the omega promo so I could be in the golden yeti tourney. Doubt I will buy one again (unless it is a phase promo) since they are making all promo's available in game in a year.

Epic  Post #: 35
4/25/2013 0:07:11   
frogbones
Banned


 When I'm in 2v2 and my partner has the Azrael promo gear, I automatically skip my first turn to protest lol. To me, I've just evened up the fight AND made a statement. o.O

@mother: It's more frustration than hate. I understand why people do all the things I mentioned, but it's still annoying. I just wish our collective consciousness was elevated enough to not fall for the cyclical OP class/gear trap when the devs dangle it in front our noses.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 36
4/25/2013 0:23:18   
Mother1
Member

@ frogbones

Oh I see I can understand that as well. I feel the same way when I am using a build I enjoy, then all of a sudden due to balance changes it become OP and someone calls me a sheep when I was using said build even before the masses took it over. As for the azreal's promo I personally hate the aux more then the gun for the soul purpose that it is nothing more then a recycled Rerun of the Azreal's borg. No originally what so ever with that item. While people hate the gun at least it's ability is original IMO.
Epic  Post #: 37
4/25/2013 3:24:15   
Drianx
Member

It's amusing how Rabblefroth claims that he listens to and appreciates Goony's feedback yet he hasn't done anything to improve and bring consistency (apart from the Maul+Berzerker and Aux+Multi glass cannon builds) to Mercenary class for so long.

< Message edited by Drianx -- 4/25/2013 3:25:31 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 38
4/25/2013 4:05:16   
Xendran
Member

Just because he "listens to and appreciates" it doesn't mean he ever implements any of it.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 39
4/25/2013 4:14:02   
Scyze
Member

Intimidate: It is a debuff but it isn't as strong as the other ones such as Smoke Screen. Where is it stated that every Skill needs to be the same? Nowhere, even though it's weak, it's still a debuff. You cannot always have the strongest Skills/moves. Even though you cannot block or deflect with this Skill, it is still good. As a BM, I can assure you that it is useful when you know the right time.
If you alter something for the Level 35 range, how's the change going to behave in the lower Level ranges?


It's amazing how things get changed so quickly and sometimes, without warning. When there is a balance concern, there's a change on the Skill's of that certain Class. Remember the Strength Mercenaries? They were dominating the 1v1 leaderboard but weren't OP. You always had the option to be one of them in Delta or the past phases.
Now, the Class was dealt heavily. When the Class was altered to be fair/more balanced, they made changes to Berzerker and Double Strike. Those people with the Strength build(s) made the Developers act and change the Skills. For those people not involved, it was tough luck. The Class was weakened. If you weren't/aren't happy with the balance changes, it's your choice.

The Skills which the Mercenaries have are physical; you have to make contact with your opponent. Most people will agree that the passives of Mercenaries are weak. I can understand that, even I think that Adrenaline is quite weak. Surely we all need a better game and something that is fun. If there's the constant "hate" post, where's that going to take EpicDuel? I also lose my head and go on about the stupidity of this game. All we can really do is think of ways on helping the Class by suggesting ideas.

What really needs to happen is the Mercenaries need a boost in their performance.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 40
4/25/2013 4:32:34   
Thesoulweaver
Member

@Frogbones - Agreed. It can get quite frustrating. And as I said earlier, Mercs need to use their heads, not hands ( Or Auxes, whatever) In order to use their hands Properly.
MQ AQW  Post #: 41
4/25/2013 5:35:12   
kosmo
Member
 

 Skilled mercenaries can be extremly deadly even without the arzel will, high tech and support with 5 focus became a must to be good, and works with evry class.
Epic  Post #: 42
4/25/2013 18:40:54   
ScarletReaper
Member

You know what, I think I'm going to switch back to merc as soon as I have enough creds savedup. I only switched at the start of omega because of the rise of strength mercs. I can't stand to be in an overpowered class. Now that it's considered underpowered, I think I could have fun with it again. Of course bloodmage is considered underpowered at the moment anyway, so maybe I'll stick with it. The thing is people...Classes can be considered underpowered and still give good results to the right people. Much like penguin, I go for the "underpowered" class just to prove to myself that I can make it work. I'm also usually broke from build testing so don't feel too bad bro. ^_^ If only there were more people like us... this game might truly be an amazing place.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 43
4/25/2013 19:16:46   
Master Smasher
Member

quote:

Much like penguin, I go for the "underpowered" class just to prove to myself that I can make it work. I'm also usually broke from build testing so don't feel too bad bro. ^_^ If only there were more people like us... this game might truly be an amazing place.

but you know thats not the reality, the real relaity is the constant change for balance and buffing the Merc class is high up that list, I appreciate your change and hope you find fortune with merc, as I can't seem to find
Epic  Post #: 44
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