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How do we make battles longer?

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5/1/2013 14:52:03   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 Short battles are the main culprit behind bad luck. But how do we lengthen the battles? Adding more health only gives players the option to invest less into that and more into other stats like strength or support to end battles quicker. Lowering it will only create more opportunity to abuse quick kill builds. Having a set amount per lvl brings us back to the first point with extra stats to players and also less build creativity. But the set amount is also the most promising of the three scenarios if we increase the base health enough while keeping damage the same. Say instead of having 50 health we had 200. Even if we never invested into defense and we fought a glass cannon hitting 40+ a turn, it would take them 5 turns to kill us. But we also would have to deal with Reroute since it would be a huge buff to the skill to have such a high pool of health.

Opinions or suggestions on how to make battles longer in order to minimize luck and help bring strategy to center stage?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 1
5/1/2013 15:07:17   
comicalbike
Member

well support is the main problem
we have to alter is so malfunction is diff

so we have malfunction fixed to dex that would solve a lot of problems
also we should have a max cap on support and strength say about 80 plus of course you get the other 32 if you want
that takes them over 100 which should be enougth
and of course if you want you could make dext start first that would slow the game a lot
all the games should take a lot longer then and bring the boosters back as well so lot longer games
lower the stats that we put there and give us fixed health of 150


< Message edited by comicalbike -- 5/2/2013 4:30:44 >
Epic  Post #: 2
5/1/2013 15:31:54   
ale6300
Member

@comicalbike Malf to dex only make Techmages and Cyberhunters OP, and anyone like Caster Techmages abusing Tech now see Caster Techmages Abusing Dex And now CH can join to this, the problem is the new Support Fixed Formula to give The first turn.

The only idea that had is cut by Half the diminishing on supp and str, increase the health per point by 2, The base energy cant be increased per level and Bring back Res progression 3 points for 1 Res and make dex like old tech Progressioin 3 points for 1 def.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 3
5/1/2013 15:32:34   
toopygoo
Member

here's an idea: have a maximum amount of damage than can be done per turn on skills. for example: plasma o something could have a ma damage of 75. after that, even if you invest more, it wont work. it will discourage people from pumping 150 suport builds
AQW Epic  Post #: 4
5/1/2013 15:33:52   
toopygoo
Member

same for skills: cant debuff most than max 40
AQW Epic  Post #: 5
5/1/2013 15:33:59   
Mother1
Member

@ ale6300

this would help those quick kill builds especially the one that abuse strength and support. As for upping the health it could some builds but others will get slaughtered.
Epic  Post #: 6
5/1/2013 15:43:54   
ale6300
Member

@Mother1 and here is the Problem Damage Overhelm Defenses its Closely Imposible To balance The game If Basic Factors Are unbalaced, but at the same time if you want to buff armor to match Weapon Dmg, you end doing only 3 Dmg Every turn and anyone in the game want this.

< Message edited by ale6300 -- 5/1/2013 15:44:15 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 7
5/1/2013 16:11:15   
ansh0
Member

Increase HP scaling for any build that does not use 5 focus.


Problem solved.
Epic  Post #: 8
5/1/2013 16:14:53   
ale6300
Member

@ansh0 Yeah and see how Str, Supp Merc and Str-Supp TM and CH are Ruining the game, no thanks.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 9
5/1/2013 16:25:25   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

Short battles are the main culprit behind bad luck. But how do we lengthen the battles? Adding more health only gives players the option to invest less into that and more into other stats like strength or support to end battles quicker.

not if you lower the base health.
for some reason people think "adding more" hp is to increase the base HP.

base HP should be low (and EP). to make you invest in it.
and it should be worth investing in it (like 3 hp per stat)

there is no reason for your base energy to be enough to cover a max ultimate.
this is why focus tlms are very "good" at the moment

their base energy alone can cover their max surgical. they no longer have to invest in it.

along with a suggested change of 3 hp per stat, 6 focus should be added.
adding 6 focus will make max focus builds even lower in health in comparison to others.

to add more changes, change the stat system.
http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21216524 (my suggestions)
stats atm are not balanced, how are we to expect class balance?

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 5/1/2013 16:27:15 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 10
5/1/2013 16:29:20   
ale6300
Member

@goldslayer1 I Suggested 2 hp per point with a low base energy and this make Quick Kill Build OP 3 Hp per point Only Make these builds More OP by the opinions on forums.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 11
5/1/2013 16:38:30   
goldslayer1
Member

@ale
"quick" kill builds are also quick death builds, this is what most of the forumites fail to understand.

str/supp tech mage while it is quick kill/death, thats really all its good for. it gets terrible %, it isn't consistent, and doesn't require much strategy because theres less rounds.

the current builds we see now have on average 80-ish HP, some even less (i use base HP for my caster mage and it works fine)

those who currently did NOT invest much into health, will NOT be affected by much.
in fact their health you can argue will go down with this suggestion.

say they only have 8 points invested into HP.
and base HP is 45 like it was before
now it would be
45 + (8x3) = 69 hp. as opposed to the current 80 hps (which only requires like 8 stats investment)

and to add more to this, base energy should only be enough to cover a level 1 ultimate. meaning 32-33 base EP.

this will require investment from builds like massacre BHs and SS TLMs.



"quick" kill builds isn't really an excuse.
if u take a look at most quick kill builds, they require energy for w/e move they use. lots of it.

prime example is str BH, they need energy for smoke and massacre.
or str merc they need energy for a good DS/Maul berzerker combo.
the current str/supp tech mage, they need energy for their max malfs and plasma bolts.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 5/1/2013 16:57:08 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 12
5/1/2013 16:55:14   
ale6300
Member

@goldslayer1 The Problem Dont Are The Stat, the problem is Defense Vs Offense, actually had a 5 Focus BH with 19 points invested in HP and with your idea can had 100 HP 25-30 Def-Res plus 5+5 for armor 12-15 +35 on my primary and side arm 11-14+39 with my aux and with only 42 Energy can do a Smokescreen, EMP or one Shield and one heal, your idea can greatly benefit my build, but dont are selfish an want to all players had the same possibilities of making good builds not only me.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 13
5/1/2013 17:04:12   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

The Problem Dont Are The Stat, the problem is Defense Vs Offense,

offense (str/supp) and defense (dex/tech) are stats. they are not balanced.
you currently get more out of going defensive than going offensive.
so yes, stat balance is the problem.

quote:

actually had a 5 Focus BH with 19 points invested in HP and with your idea can had 100 HP 25-30 Def-Res plus 5+5 for armor 12-15 +35 on my primary and side arm 11-14+39 with my aux and with only 42 Energy can do a Smokescreen, EMP or one Shield and one heal, your idea can greatly benefit my build, but dont are selfish an want to all players had the same possibilities of making good builds not only me.


you would have 102 HP, yes it would "benefit" you in some way.
but it will benefit more to other non focus builds, which there currently aren't many.

and if u can use all of those skills with 42 energy, then u must have them at lvl 1.
field medic is 17
smokescreen is 13
emp is 10
and energy shield is 11

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 5/1/2013 17:07:55 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 14
5/1/2013 17:20:13   
ale6300
Member

@goldslayer1 these are the stat, But the problem is Raw Weapon Dmg agaisnt Raw Armor Defense 35 vs 10 its unbanlanced, in basic Offense Overhelm Defense for that motive the diminishing appeared and all Offensive skills improved by a defensive Stat are better, the main thing now is how can balance defense with offense without doing 3 dmg per turn, and with 42 energy can do a Smokescreen a defensive move and a heal (if are extremely neccesary) and my skills are lv 1 EMP Grenade are sufficient to kill any Support or str build that rely on EP, level 6 Reflex or lv 2 Energy shield that Cover any debuff without problem, and a lv 4 smokescreen to go offensive, or a heal lv 3 in the case that are facing a TLM, but never use all the skill in one match because the situation never appear, and can use generator to recover some health and energy to use use heal in future turns if are needed.

< Message edited by ale6300 -- 5/1/2013 17:22:07 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 15
5/1/2013 17:34:38   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

these are the stat, But the problem is Raw Weapon Dmg agaisnt Raw Armor Defense 35 vs 10 its unbanlanced,

yes well, when i suggested 3 hp per point, i was told that HP would be more valuable than defense, and that this would make battle longers (duh?) IIRC, this was because battles "needed" a certain pace. that they didn't want them too long or too short. (maybe this is why they nerf terrible quick death builds?)
so thats probably why its like that for armor def/res and compared to wep damage.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 5/1/2013 17:35:20 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 16
5/1/2013 17:54:24   
ale6300
Member

@goldslayer1 For my 2 Hp can fit better Because High Dex make you to block more, and high Tech Make you to Deflect more, now with a base Hp like in delta around 41 to 45 same with energy you need to invest some points to get a decent hp lowering the amount of tankiness and luck at the same time, but the answer is minimizing luck or make the battles longer? in that case you need more defense without luck factors and for that i suggested to make the progression on dex and tech, like the old Tech progression, but this make the players to go more tankiness and anyone like 5 focus for that i see on forums, for that motive is suggested to cut by half the diminishing on str and support to keep away players of tanking on 5 focus, but a new problem appear again and are quick kill builds and doesnt matter what are trying to do the problem comes in Unbalanced Dmg vs Def.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 17
5/1/2013 20:15:51   
Xendran
Member

One big problem with this game is how crazy low the numbers are.
For example, if every number in the game was multiplied by 10, we could then set HP to 15 (1.5) per stat point. 1 is too low, 2 is too high, but currently there's nothing we can do about that.
This low-number issue also causes most percentage skills to have messed up scaling as well.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 5/1/2013 20:16:46 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 18
5/1/2013 20:43:02   
Stabilis
Member

More health per level. That is it. That is how to extend the length of time in a battle.

ND, more stat points into ulterior stats aside from health is not a problem. If it was, the stats would have to be imbalanced. OH WAIT.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 5/2/2013 10:57:36 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 19
5/1/2013 23:15:08   
edwardvulture
Member

I don't think this was a problem in delta(bring stat progressions delta)
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 20
5/2/2013 0:10:56   
Dual Thrusters
Member

How about nerfing all offensive skills? And lowering base weapon damage?
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 21
5/2/2013 3:43:49   
romanu
Member

Not sure about that, the longer a battle is, more luck factor my enemys( and not very often, me) gets. I have yet to find a balanced luck battle( both players have luck factors)
Post #: 22
5/2/2013 3:50:08   
Darkwing
Member

You can lower the luck % and not make battles longer. If you make battles longer, farming credits will be even a bigger pain, since they also removed pvp drops.
Post #: 23
5/2/2013 9:22:26   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 @romanu If you have a crit in a battle now, then it will take away a good chunk of your health and leave you crippled most likely. If you were to have a bunch more health then crits wouldn't affect you as much and it would reduce complaining since they wouldn't be as powerful. There would be more because the battles last longer but it would be easier to deal with. The observed probability of luck is way different than the actual probability. An 8% chance to crit could show up as a 50% chance to crit if a battle lasts only two rounds and one move crits and the other doesn't. But over hundreds of battles, you'll start seeing that you are getting closer to the actual 8%.

Take a coin for example. Flip it twice. It will show either a 50/50 or a 100/0. Now what happens if you do get two heads/tails? That means you have a 100% chance to flip that side going off of observed probability alone. But if you flip it 10, 100, 1000, even a million times, you'll start to get closer and closer to a true 50/50 ratio.

@dark Lowering luck %s doesn't help since luck was made as a counter to keep any build from getting a 100% by build abuse. Strength can get blocked and deflected, support can be deflected, tanks can be crit and raged. By sacrificing those, we run the risk of boosting builds that abuse stats.

@xen My original suggestion for health lowering involved a 1.5 system. Except it would be adapted to lower numbers and would work like tech progressions used to work(3 stats per resist with an occasional 2) so you would get 1 health and then 2 the next point.

@dual Too much work, especially when increasing health would do just fine.

@ed Short battles have been around since Alpha.

@gold I never mentioned health would make battles longer because it would make it more important than defenses(and yes I know you're referring to me, no one else ever mentions the relationship between health and defenses). I said that making health more important than defenses allows players to overlook 2 entire stats and be better off without them. Also, the game is supposed to be set up so defense>offense. Otherwise skills like Defense Matrix, Reflex Boost and all the other defensive skills would be pointless to use. Why use one of those skills if you're only getting back less or as much? Why should I invest in dex and tech if some guy can invest half as much into strength and be equal to me?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 24
5/2/2013 15:09:04   
DARK SOUL OF HELL
Member

here's a strange idea : how about removing : block crit def ( seriously y do they exist anyway ? )
Post #: 25
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