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4/6/2013 1:56:05   
goldslayer1
Member

Id like to suggest that the staff balance out stats before trying to nerf a specific class/build.

1) Stat Balance - Str/Dex/Tec/Sup Progression
Right now stats are not balanced. and ill show you an example of what i mean.
54 Dex/Tech = 18-22 Def/Res
54 Str/Supp = 12-15 Pri/Aux
101 Dex/Tech = 29-35 Def/Res
100 Str/Supp = 19-23 Pri/Aux

So as you can see above, offensive stats like Str and Support aren't worth investing in anymore. this is why there is a massive increase in 5 focus defensive builds. plus the fact that str based moves such as massacre, double strike, bludgeon and others were nerfed.
5 focus gives you the good defense, while giving you a reliable damage source from the robot. and this is why 5 focus is thriving. they have no competition.

My idea is to make the stats worth be more equal.
so i suggest changing the way they scale.

Dex/Tech: Scale by 3
Str/Supp: Scale by 4

100 Str/Supp: 25-30 Pri/Aux
100 Dex/Tech: 33-40

2) Item Stats

right now a lvl 35 Class Specific Primary gives 35 damage and 20 stats.
it should be 35 damage and 35 stats. this brings the item stats to 1 stat per lvl.
this should go for all items.
excluding auxiliaries. auxiliaries to balance it out due to its cooldown, should be 1.2 damage per lvl, which equals out to 42 damage at lvl 35

and the scale for armor def/res needs a change IMO. 1/3 of your lvl should be your armor def/res
You lvl / 3 = your armor def/res
so lvl 30 has 10 def/res
and lvl 35 has 12 (rounded up)

Lvl 35 Primary: 35 damage, 35 stats
Lvl 35 Sidearm: 35 damage, 35 stats
Lvl 35 Auxiliary: 42 damage, 35 stats
Lvl 35 Armor: 12 def/res, 35 stats

3) Gun Damage Change

Right now gun damage is based on str. this gives str builds an advantage over the other offensive stat, support.
My suggestion is to make gun damage be based on Str + support.
With my current scale suggestion, primary and aux get 1 damage per 4 stats. gun damage should be 1 damage per 8 str/support stats
100 Str: 25-30 Primary
40 support: 10-12 Auxiliary

(100 + 40) / 8 = 17.5
Gun Damage: 17-21 (rounded down)
Formula: (Str + Support) / 8 = Your gun damage (rounded down)

This reduces gun damage for Strength builds and increases it for Support Builds.


4) HP and EP Base

in order for this to work, Health and Energy need to change.
Tacticaly Mercenary at lvl 35 has 72 Base HP, and 61 Base EP
Basically, base EP is too high. it is so high, i have no need to invest points into it.
the base EP more than covers enough for a max Surgical Strike.

My Suggestion:
For lvl 1
Base HP: 45
Base Ep: 34

For lvl 35
Base HP: 45
Base EP: 0
as your lvl gets higher, your base EP gets reduced. this forces players to invest into energy as they get higher lvl.

5) HP Progression Change
HP right now progresses by 1.
my suggestion is to make Health progress by 3 HP per stat point.
1 stat = 3 HP
45 + (3 x S) = HP


6) Increasing stats given by lvl.
right now you get 4 stats each time you lvl up.
since energy will be 0 at base during lvl 35, stats given per lvl should be increase to 5.

so at lvl 35 instead of having 136 (4 X 34) stats available, you have 170 (5 X 34)




I know some of you guys are probably thinking "ohh noez, HP will be too high!" HP should be high.
higher HP reduces the effects of luck, and makes the battle more strategy based, instead of a cookie cutter 1,2,3,4 rinse and repeat



< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 4/6/2013 3:48:44 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 1
4/6/2013 2:04:13   
theholyfighter
Member

Nice worth trying IMO.
AQW Epic  Post #: 2
4/6/2013 2:27:12   
Mother1
Member

I have to agree with theholyfighter on this one. Much better then just nerfing every build into the ground because everything thinks it is OP or the masses jump to it.
Epic  Post #: 3
4/6/2013 2:39:43   
goldslayer1
Member

i am currently working on theoretical paper builds to show as examples of what they would look like under this system.
currently working on str bh and focus tlm.

any other type of build examples some of you may want me to try?

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 4/6/2013 2:41:17 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 4
4/6/2013 2:40:58   
theholyfighter
Member

Multi builds?

(Support Merc, DEX Hunters, DEX Mages)
AQW Epic  Post #: 5
4/6/2013 2:42:07   
goldslayer1
Member

@fighter
for team mode or solo?
AQW Epic  Post #: 6
4/6/2013 2:43:48   
theholyfighter
Member

Maybe you can try both...
AQW Epic  Post #: 7
4/6/2013 2:51:05   
theholyfighter
Member

quote:

My Suggestion:
For lvl 1
Base HP: 45
Base Ep: 34

For lvl 35
Base HP: 45
Base EP: 0
as your lvl gets higher, your base EP gets reduced. this forces players to invest into energy as they get higher lvl.


For the energy part, it's too dramatic. Maybe keep the same base Energy as well. With 0 HP TMs and TLMs will benefit too much from it than other classes.
AQW Epic  Post #: 8
4/6/2013 2:53:42   
goldslayer1
Member

@holy
u mean 34 base at lvl 35? or 61-62 base like it is now?
AQW Epic  Post #: 9
4/6/2013 2:56:01   
ansh0
Member

Good ideas.

Also, include something about luck.

Maybe have a fixed rate for blocks/crits/deflects.

Or cut all %'s in half and re-work every core that has to do with luck.


How about my idea for mastery cores:

Instead of giving more chances to crit, how about it makes the item do more damage on crit.

It would be like this

Primary Mastery: Increases critical damage( on strike?) by 4%

You catch my drift?




Also HP scaling of 3 is way too high. Battles would be 20 ish rounds. Also battle rewards need to be increased of that happens, at least 100 creds/25 exp a battle.

How about HP scales at 1.5 or 2.

< Message edited by ansh0 -- 4/6/2013 3:01:17 >
Epic  Post #: 10
4/6/2013 3:01:15   
theholyfighter
Member

quote:

@holy
u mean 34 base at lvl 35? or 61-62 base like it is now?

34 base for lvl 35, because 1 point---> 3 health.
AQW Epic  Post #: 11
4/6/2013 3:08:25   
goldslayer1
Member

@ansh0
i have ideas regarding luck.

my idea is to change the progression in the %s

ATM u get 1% over ur enemy for every 2.5 dex

it should be changed so that the amount of dex needed for the 1% is higher, while the chance to block keeps increasing the more and more dex u have.

example.
if i have 80 dex, and my enemy has 80 dex, we have equal chance to block each other, 8%.
if i add 30 dex, i now have 20% chance. and he has 2%

IMO for the first 30 dex different, 1% should be 5 dex.
so at 5 dex = 1%
80 dex vs 80 dex is still 8%
but if i add 30, i now have 15% instead of before where i had 20%.

BUT, make the progression smaller as the gap gets bigger.
meaning after 30 dex for example, u now required 3 dex for 1%
so if i have 60 dex over my enemy, my chance is 25%.

however these are sample numbers to get the point across.
and the point is, that luck factors should only be more rewarding when the gap in stats is huge.

so 70 vs 70 dex wont block much,
100 vs 70 wont be such a huge difference.
but 130+ vs 70 will be a bigger difference.

quote:

Also HP scaling of 3 is way too high. Battles would be 20 ish rounds. Also battle rewards need to be increased of that happens, at least 100 creds/25 exp a battle.

How about HP scales at 1.5 or 2.

i was expecting someone to bring that up. i dont think they will last 20+ rounds on average.
but ur HP wont be cut in half by a single crit.

the more rounds, the more room for strategy.
do u prefer a slower game but more balanced?

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 4/6/2013 3:10:25 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 12
4/6/2013 3:28:07   
Mother1
Member

@ goldslayer

Even thought it is a one time use thing now, this idea would favor infernal android users more. Especially with the large amount of health making rounds longer.
Epic  Post #: 13
4/6/2013 3:33:18   
goldslayer1
Member

@mother1
this is to balance out stats first.

things like android will need adjustment later.


quote:

Multi builds?

(Support Merc, DEX Hunters, DEX Mages)

all examples are based on lvl 35, 170 stats available, 140 stat mods available, total 310

Base stats
Stats
Stat Mods

Tech mage
Health: 45 + (35 x 3) = 150
Energy: 34 +30 = 64
Strength: 20 +20 = 40
Dexterity: 21 +41 +56 = 118
Technology: 22 + 21 +56 = 99
Support: 17 + 23 +28 = 68

Primary: 10-12 +35
Sidearm: 13-16 +35
Auxiliary: 17-21 +42
Defense: 40-48 +4
Resistance: 33-40 +8

05|01|01
02|01|01
03|10|10
04|00|00

this leaves you to be 4 focus, so you have a decent robot aswell.
although you could lower some dex if you wanted for 5 focus.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 4/6/2013 3:45:04 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 14
4/6/2013 3:35:28   
beastmo
Member

Nice idea gold it worth a shot :D
Epic  Post #: 15
4/6/2013 3:36:53   
theholyfighter
Member

Looks nice~~~
AQW Epic  Post #: 16
4/6/2013 3:39:03   
goldslayer1
Member

@holy fighter
you can switch 4 skill points from assimilation over to deadly aim if u want higher damage output.

@beastmo
:) thanks
AQW Epic  Post #: 17
4/6/2013 5:12:31   
Toffeuy
Member
 

It sure looks nice when it is only suggested, but really it is a gamble, one which is much more risky than it currently seems, in fact, i'm certain the devs would hardly consider the suggestion because of this. I'll put out an analogy to make it simpler to understand what I mean when I say it is a gamble not worth taking. Say someone thinks of a number between 1 and 100. Three people try to guess the number, person who is the closest wins. The first person guesses 50, the second person guesses 49 and the third person decides to guess 51. The number the original person had thought of is metaphorical to the random nature of such a large change in the game system. Since the second person guessed 49, any number between 1-49 will cause them to be the winner. The same applies for the third person in the case the number is 51-100. Sadly, because 50 was right in the middle of the other two guesses, the only possible way for the first person to win is if the number was spot on 50. So effectively, the first person only has a 1/101 chance of winning, whereas the other two equally have a 50/101 chance. The number 50, is the number we may consider as the state at which EpicDuel is "balanced". Let's say 1-49 means certain builds will be underpowered, and that 51-100 means certain builds will be overpowered. Since these two scenarios are pretty much the converses of each other, either is a state of imbalance. Essentially, putting out a gamble like this has a minute chance of actually achieving the effect you intended it to. Imagine the devs spending a couple good months just to implement this idea, and it ends out only being slightly better than the game was before.

When omega was announced and cores were first introduced, everyone was keen on it; they believed it was an absolutely brilliant idea for bringing about balance and skill to the game. Months into omega now and look where we are. Not just the cores, pretty much the entire system was overhauled, the HP and EP systems were changed, and I don't recall many people against that, because it seemed like an interesting and creative idea, but what most need to realise is that interesting and creative is on a completely separate line to a balanced idea. People may think interesting and creative ideas may be a slight, extremely small clue that it is a good idea, and that thought multiplies quite quickly to the part where "it should be a good idea" or "i'm guessing that's gonna work", but a balanced idea does not have even that slightest relation with creativity. I still can't believe how many people thought that Omega would be the bringer of balance because it contained so many changes which were all so creative and sounded like such a good idea. But, really not to my surprise, all big changes were to be met with skepticism, and omega was a big disaster, even after those adjustments to make it a better game, I see more people complaining now about things than before omega.

And please don't get me wrong, i'm not saying this is a bad idea. It all sounds good, and it may in truth be good, but no-one can really know for sure, because the amount of testers are still limited, and you can't expect them to get very accurate results of 10 rounds+ battles when they can't even manage the ~5 round battles right now. So basically, the idea can't be tested in a great amount of detail, and uncertain thoughts probably means no implementation.

There's always going to be parts which are overlooked, and it is these small things we don't even realise, that end up destroying the game. You've mentioned that a battle shouldn't just be a few rounds, and that is something I completely agree with, but EpicDuel has been based on that notion pretty much since the beginning, which means more effort, much more effort than you think is going to be required to make it simply a game where battles last longer. If battles were to be made longer, maybe almost all skills will also need to be changed. Let's use the build you posted as an example, with those defences and such high hp, and noting that heal is available, how many attacks would it take to defeat an opponent like that? I think it's safe to assume that it would be in excess of 10 attacks right? Say your opponent was a merc with Hybrid armor, and lets say max hybrid armor gave +6 def and res instead of +6/+5, just for the sake of ease of calculation. In the ten attacks it took to defeat your opponent, their hybrid armor had absorbed 60 damage (6 def/res multiplied by 10 attacks). Now, say your opponent was a bounty hunter, and you had a chance to use your heal, so throughout the entire battle, you effectively had 200 hp. Take away the hp regained by your opponent during the finishing attack, since the hp regained from killing you has absolutely no effect at all. Prior to your death, ~180 dmg was inflicted on you. Since max bloodlust heals 25%, they'd gain about 45 health. So hybrid armor gives you 60 more hp, while bloodlust only gives 45, that is an advantage of 15 health, or 10% of the max health of the build you showed, simply by possessing a different skill. I've done similar calculations on the game as it is now, and really only an advantage of around 2 hp is obtained by the bloodlust or hybrid armor user, usually less than 2% of their max health. There's also problems such as smokescreen and malfunction only lasting 3 turns in a ~15 round battle.

On another note i'd like to just say you can never achieve actual balance. Builds are more or less likely to win depending on the distribution of other builds across the playing population, and these trends are always changing, so builds may often seem overpowered at one point and then underpowered a small time later. Balance is unachievable, you just got to wait for those small balance updates which provide players with just that little incentive to change builds or classes. And when these updates stimulate change in the demographics, builds will be performing with differently.
Post #: 18
4/6/2013 5:16:49   
theholyfighter
Member


@goldslayer1
On another thought maybe start from this?
-A lvl up grants 5 Stats and 1 Skill Point
-1 Point--> 2 Health

< Message edited by theholyfighter -- 4/10/2013 10:24:00 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 19
4/9/2013 21:57:46   
Sipping Cider
Member

Firstly, I support the idea of weapons scaling as you suggest they should. Stats could also change to give bonuses every 4 for offensive stats and every 3 for defensive stats, as that is not much of a change from the current system.

The part I have trouble accepting is energy and health. Even now that everyone has so much energy it is still better to invest points into passive abilities. If you start with 0 energy (eventually), it will really be impossible to make a competitive build without using passives. Health increasing every 3 points is also OP. I think health should be a high number, but not through forcing players to use their stat points on it. If health were to increase by 3 every stat point, it would never be worth it put a stat point anywhere else. Maybe if health were to increase automatically every level instead?

< Message edited by Sipping Cider -- 4/9/2013 22:04:52 >
Epic  Post #: 20
4/9/2013 22:02:58   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

Maybe if health were to increase automatically every level instead?

thats another alternative.

perhaps 72 base (lvl 1) +2 (or 3) every lvl.
if its by 2
at lvl 35, HP is 140.
if its by 3, hp at lvl 35 will be 174.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 4/9/2013 22:05:42 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 21
4/9/2013 23:04:52   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


I would just generally support anything that increases total stat points by a lot, because more stat points = more build diversity, which should hopefully promote more creativity. If it doesn't, I'll at least take advantage of it for my own fun and build creativity >:D

Supposing EP would still increase by 1 per stat point, I'd particularly enjoy how base EP would be eventually reduced to 0. I also appreciate how you made it so HP increases by 3 per 1 stat point because reroute will gain a well-needed boost.
Epic  Post #: 22
4/9/2013 23:25:41   
RageSoul
Member

Finally someone saw the real set of problems ! But about the stats , Gold :

quote:

Lvl 35 Primary: 35 damage, 35 stats
Lvl 35 Sidearm: 35 damage, 35 stats
Lvl 35 Auxiliary: 42 damage, 35 stats
Lvl 35 Armor: 12 def/res, 35 stats

Does this mean Swords get the same stat mod count as well?
AQW Epic  Post #: 23
4/10/2013 0:23:53   
goldslayer1
Member

@rage
in terms of stats, it should. however its to be compensated by increased damage.
by increased damage i dont mean 1 damage point. i mean in terms of %.
like 10% more damage for sword varying on ur lvl. (just example)

because the current rate at which swords gain their 1 damage is not steady and stable.

AQW Epic  Post #: 24
4/10/2013 0:35:10   
RageSoul
Member

@Gold
So a Level 35 Sword would give me +39 ? Well ok , that's actually a good deal for me ( and for balance ) .
AQW Epic  Post #: 25
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