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No Outplay

 
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5/9/2014 4:46:50   
edwardvulture
Member

'ello everyone. I would like to discuss the issue of not being able to win even if you have higher skill.

Some reasons that t think it this way are:
-limited skill trees/options
-classes not having their niche
-build advantage set in stone
-low diversity

Personally, I'd like this game more if it was more skill-based, but I think balance issues are in the way.
What are your thoughts about not being able to outplay your opponents?

For me, I really don't play this game anymore. I got bought into LoL because there are just way more choices in that game.

What could give epicduel the "outplay" factor?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 1
5/9/2014 5:03:58   
RageSoul
Member

Some mechanic changes so you can make a comeback in fights( similar to League of Legends , but more on effects )j


* When Skill A is blocked , it does Effect 1 , else it does Effect B as normal / mentioned . Effect A can scale with said attribute , either HP , EP , STR , DEX , TECH or SUPP.
* Skill B's primary effect does more output when <insert luck situation>
* Skill C effect : when cast on ally , it does Effect 1 , if enemy it does Effect 2

< Message edited by RageSoul -- 5/9/2014 5:10:27 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 2
5/9/2014 20:07:01   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


Easiest way to make it more skill-based?

Nerf strength into the ground because it's single-handedly the most simple stat to use. If you want to go about doing it in a fair and balanced way, however, then skills that are looked at as "Essentials" in any build should get changed (I.E. Battery Backup or field medic).
Epic  Post #: 3
5/11/2014 11:24:16   
Teserve
Member

@above
Agreed, make it so you aren't forced to use certain skills for your build to be competitive.
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 4
5/11/2014 22:00:32   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


One of my biggest issues with balance is that up until a point in late game you can win with one stat and even late game that is a possibility if you copy the right build.

One of the things I got into my head was punishing stat spammers more than just diminishing returns but what does that do aside from promoting everyone to use the exact same build.

I'm just going to put the idea down so that I don't forget it.

If you put over a certain percent of your stats into one point you get diminishing returns just on that stat and this is effected by stat modifiers off of gear
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 5
5/11/2014 23:27:10   
Archlord Raistlin
Member
 

mechanical changes are an understatement...

tonight's 2v2 power hour produced 2 wins in 8 matches, filled with turns that
made absolutely no sense, but absolutely made the difference in who won
the match. rage gun deflects almost every time, anialated armor guy blocks
3 times in a row, and on and on...

It is these types of repeated non-balanced, non-sensical mechanics that
make this game difficult to stomach for any amount of time...

What the devs dont seem to realize (or really do), is that if we stayed around
another 20 matches, it might work itself out with more bad mechanics that
might be in our favor. Really...who wants to stay around waiting for the bad
mechanics to turn in their favor??? Is this what ED has de-volved into?

It's not so much about a win ratio of 25% as it is having to endure the obvious
battle manipulations...

Update: Well I did stick it out for another hour or so... 6 X 2v2 wins out of 18
matches. So, in fact, I couldn't wait for the bad mechanics to turn in my favor.
I'm just in a bad mood and done for the night... Ya think this has ANYTHING
to do with low server turnout or or the ability to keep us playing the game?

< Message edited by Archlord Raistlin -- 5/12/2014 1:07:05 >
Post #: 6
5/12/2014 20:00:42   
Teserve
Member

@above
Agreed, luck factors can be pretty stupid sometimes. But I just laugh cause it's really hilarious when it works out and gets you 5 blocks in a row.
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 7
5/15/2014 13:03:33   
Archlord Raistlin
Member
 

@above
Speaking of blocks in a row...just had a match where a dex mage blocked my:
2 strikes
1 cheap shot
1 rage cheap shot

OK...he's @ 130 dex and I'm at 89, but really??? 4 blocks are warranted?

The last 2 blocks were when any single hit would have brought hp down to 0.

"pretty stupid" is an understatement and is an example of all that is "wrong" with this game atm...


< Message edited by Archlord Raistlin -- 5/15/2014 13:05:20 >
Post #: 8
5/22/2014 9:02:04   
Seteriel
Member

Greetings duelists

There are a lot of things needed to get the "outplay" or the "epic" back into the game.
I have been thinking about such a thread for a long time now myself, so i gladly jump in and share my visions. They are not fully thought out rspectively miss examples/explanations here and there, but i think they are good "as is". In other words: i am not very quick with numbers and formulas, so i leave this to those who are *blush* ;)


In the short run:
- additional classes
--> leave the 6 "base" classes with "their" class change system as it is, but add (like in AQW) "overlay" items that when equipped give you a different skill set (based on 1 of the 6 original classes)
--> 2 "overlays" per base class, leaving the players with technically 18 classes
--> no need for fully custom skill trees (i.e. Smoke Screen could be for the 2 "overlays" as well)
--> class change would be expensive, but tweaking your "Bounty Hunter" a little to "Gun Slinger" or "Assasin", your "Mercenery" to "Blood Merc" or "Bomber" etc would be a switch of an 10k credits item = affordable and fun
----> there could also be varium "overlays" with some extras for the paying players, to keep them busy and make build copying a little more difficult, but this is for later stages
- additional skills
--> give every class (inluding the "overlays") a second page of skills, doubling the available choices
--> outside of battle you would really have 2 pages, inside of battle when looking at the players stats page, the center (where the toon+bike usually are) could be used to show the full skill tree (this should also take account of some lag issues when looking at the stats pages)

=> diversity is at the moment the most needed thing in my opinion, and could already prove to be (at least a part) of the wanted balance. I understand that grafics and skill values and descriptions need time to develop, but these should be the first things on the to do list.


In the middle run:
- more skill cores
-> there really aren't enough of them to make fights interesting "oh Bloodhawk/Spider sword, oh Azrael guns, oh some no-name weapon", that's it
- some balancing between the classes/skills/cores
-> will definately be needed
- additional classes (read "overlays")

=> i said it about diversity already. The devs could make base cores for free players and "v2.0" cores with like +5 damage or +1-2% more effect for paying players to keep them busy. This should be the to do list after the new overlay classes and skills are made - to keep the servers running.


In the long run... well, rebuild the game :(
- take rage out of the game, it is broken, unneeded and favours the wrong builds
- rebuild defence/resistance formulas
--> a percentage based damage reduction system makes much more sense and is much easier to handle, not to mention it would help with damage/strength rebalancing/scaling and could make the block+deflect system obsolete
- if block+deflect shall stay in the game, make them ignore only 30% incoming damage as base and then let it scale based on a combination of dex+support for blocks respectively tech+support for deflects
--> like now, comparing the dex/tech and support stats of attacker + defender, first for chance to block/deflect, and then for how much damage % is really blocked/deflected
- rebuild the critical system in the same way, but it ignores a base of 25% defence/resistance
--> and then a combination of support+dex for melee attacks respectively support+tech for ranged attacks checks the chance to crit and the % of defence/resistance ignored (maybe finally including all skills, also grenades and everything, only excluding the "finishers" like Massacre)
----> cap chance to block/deflect/critical at 30% max and damage/defence/resistance ignored 50% max
- as i haven't played a str build for ages, i have not developped an exact idea about strength, but i'm sure significantly lowering weapon damage could take us miles along the way
--> also, like with block+deflect, make the damage formula percentage based [edit] i.e. lvl 40 weapon base damage = 100, str + legendary ranks add (N+M)% to it[/edit]
--> get rid of weapon requirements for weapons skills (would actually also help much when it comes to new skills and the overlay classes)
--> also get rid of the damage/stat difference between swords+class weapons
- support needs some loving, i already gave it an affect in the block/deflect formulas. But i think stun resistance should get back into the game and thus back to support. Not sure what else could be done here, without bringing broken mechanics again
----> all these changes should lead to roads that help getting rid of 5 focus (fully move robot damage to tech) and other band aid fixes, and help getting back to the balance routes too
- rebuild Legendary ranks. I won't go into detail here, there were many good ideas made
--> make more than 10 categories (you could easily have like 18-25 categories and more, keeping all at 10 levels, for 180-250 or more possible choices, and still limit legendary ranks to 100 for individualism and fun)
--> the fixed flat damage/defence/resistance ranks should either be completely replaced, or at least redesigned to % values that merely add to the original damage/defence/resistance formulas
[edit] - stat scaling is not perfectly working, in the way how many stats are available and how they affect damage/defence/resistance/blocks..... in short, the "overall game system"
--> i am missing the exact way how stat scaling currently works, but with the above changes the amount of available stats on any given player level could be reduced - at least the "stat scaling system" could be reworked to fit into the rest of the rebalanced "overall game system" [/edit]

=> again 1 point for diversity with the Legendary ranks (respectively with a reworked stat system, this whole chapter is also solely about diversity), but mostly this is the real part about balancing and repairing the game. As i know marketing and how slow writing code is, throw in 1 more "free" overlay and 1 more "varium only" overlay classes, as well as new cores between the many updates (i actually think about 1 big and then many smaller steps here) - to keep the servers running.


I think these were all topics i played around with during the past months. Hopefully all is more or less understandable, english is not my native language :]


Best regards
Seteriel

< Message edited by Seteriel -- 5/22/2014 16:35:49 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 9
5/25/2014 11:12:57   
Teserve
Member

@above
How long did that take to write...
I would support everything there, someone just needs to come up with the details.
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 10
5/25/2014 21:25:42   
Xendran
Member

They had many community members, including myself, offer to help them with a full rebuild. Members that they knew were fully capable of doing it properly.
The vast majority of those members, again including myself, are no longer willing to help.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 11
5/27/2014 7:02:08   
King Bling
Member

Um....Exploding penguin you should so intentional...When there were dex mages people said it is the most simple stat to put all points into and win matches easily, now that people have started using strength you say that str is the most simple stat to put all points into and win matches. So maybe we should change our thoughts probably that putting points into things is totally our wish....

Consider if no one used dex at all and used rest stats then people would start saying that dex is underpowered stat ( just like support atm ). And if one starts using dex and so does everyone follow then people will again start saying that dex is overpowered and easy stat to put all points into. The stats and skills are just things its we that make it overpowered or underpowered nothing else...
Post #: 12
5/27/2014 19:59:54   
Teserve
Member

@above
Support is underused because you get less bang for your stat points (the opinion of some players), and because most of the time you just don't need it that badly.
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 13
5/27/2014 20:17:00   
Mother1
Member

@ King bling

I still see dex mages and dex builds when I play. However support builds or people using it period is rare. Why because they nerfed support into the ground, and it is so weak it isn't needed by most.
Epic  Post #: 14
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