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Why Hasn't Chieftain's Ironthorn Been Nerfed/Reworked Yet?

 
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10/12/2019 16:52:21   
Lord Tenebros
Member

I’m probably going to get a LOT of hate for making this post and I’m sure people are going to accuse me of trying to kill everyone’s fun, but I feel like somebody has to point out the elephant in the room.

Why Hasn’t Chieftain’s Ironthorn Been Nerfed/Reworked Yet?

It’s common knowledge that the shield is based on old and outdated standards, and because of this, Chieftain's Ironthorn single-handedly boosts Weapon-based skills to a level far superior to those of spell-based skills to this very day. It’s a low-mid level shield that provides a multiplicative x1.5 damage boost, a benefit that most modern day lvl 150 shields could only DREAM of giving, to the point that many offensive-oriented players choose to ignore shields entirely in favor of CiT unless they're up against a boss specifically designed to counter nuking, like War-Torn Dragon. And the BTH penalty that the shield gives is easily circumvented by the many ways to boost DEX and BTH. There is a reason why this shield is widely acknowledged as one of the most overpowered items in the game, and there is a reason why Spell-based skills are treated with disdain by the community at large.

So why hasn't this shield already been nerfed or reworked? Zealot’s Wrath got hit with a nerf, and that item was both (a) a package item and (b) had a less egregious impact on the game at its peak than Chieftain’s Ironthorn currently does. CiT is completely free, so it’s not like anybody paid for this shield or will have their wallets affected by a balance change.
Post #: 1
10/12/2019 17:34:54   
AliceShiki
Helpful!


Not the first time a thread has been made on CIT tbh, and I agree with you that it should be nerfed already, but... Well, last time someone made a thread like this, we got no response from staff whatsoever.

My guess is that they plain and simply don't think it's worth it to update it and deal with the backlash of people that love to cry over how CIT is the only thing that allows warriors to compete with mages and yada yada yada.

That's just my theory though, we have no clue why it wasn't updated already, but I'd love to see it getting reworked... Maybe to an Earth shield with a +STR toggle (costing SP of course) and a free Berserker Lean effect like what Grakma Horn gives.
AQ  Post #: 2
10/12/2019 20:54:27   
Lineolata
Member
 

Made a thread a while ago, suggested it be changed to a -26% Earth shield with a STR drive as a MC and a Berserk toggle as a flavor effect. No staff response, trolls flooded the thread and got it locked. My best guess is that since many warrior builds rely (or at least used to rely) on CiT to stay competitive with mage nukes, radically altering CiT would create many awkward side effects that would need addressing. So in short I support the idea but it's probably not practical at this time.
AQ DF  Post #: 3
10/13/2019 0:19:51   
Warren.
Member
 

The two folks above me are both pretty spot on with the reason why the shield hasn't been touched and most likely will never be touched. Any non mage build would suffer damage output very badly, and also another thing is that over the years players have gotten great joy out of using the shield and creating certain combos and or experiences that are cherished. It's hard to state that one item in a flash game brings so much joy but this one for sure does, and I say a little joy goes a long way.
Post #: 4
10/13/2019 1:33:57   
OverLordOfDeath
Member

You can only change so much before you aggravate people.
Post #: 5
10/13/2019 7:04:38   
ruleandrew
Member
 

I suggest rebalancing Chieftain's Ironthorn (level 100 version) with the following principle in mind: grant player *1.35 attack damage bonus (player weapon and player weapon special) for 0 skill points.


Also create Chieftain ironthorn (level 150 version), Chieftain's Ironthorn (level 135 version), Chieftain's Ironthorn (level 117 version)
AQ  Post #: 6
10/20/2019 3:34:18   
Seth Hydra
How We Roll Winner
Nov14


quote:

I’m probably going to get a LOT of hate for making this post and I’m sure people are going to accuse me of trying to kill everyone’s fun, but I feel like somebody has to point out the elephant in the room.

Good, you know where this is going to end.

quote:

It’s common knowledge that the shield is based on old and outdated standards, and because of this, Chieftain's Ironthorn single-handedly boosts Weapon-based skills to a level far superior to those of spell-based skills to this very day. It’s a low-mid level shield that provides a multiplicative x1.5 damage boost, a benefit that most modern day lvl 150 shields could only DREAM of giving, to the point that many offensive-oriented players choose to ignore shields entirely in favor of CiT unless they're up against a boss specifically designed to counter nuking, like War-Torn Dragon. And the BTH penalty that the shield gives is easily circumvented by the many ways to boost DEX and BTH. There is a reason why this shield is widely acknowledged as one of the most overpowered items in the game, and there is a reason why Spell-based skills are treated with disdain by the community at large.

Good, you've got your answer.

quote:

My guess is that they plain and simply don't think it's worth it to update it and deal with the backlash of people that love to cry over how CIT is the only thing that allows warriors to compete with mages and yada yada yada.

There is a disparity though even though I can argue that Mages get the most out of it either way.

As someone who sees some merit on both sides of the argument, I'll try to be as brief as possible. CIT, for all its "brokeness", doens't have much effect in terms of core gameplay. Primarily, the only time you're going to use it is while farming or warring, the latter of which will be borderline excrutiating w/o the damage pump. As for bosses, I could argue it's possible to nuke out most bosses w/o CIT especially given the BtH demerit even though that hasn't stopped me from doing it time and time again.

quote:

So why hasn't this shield already been nerfed or reworked? Zealot’s Wrath got hit with a nerf, and that item was both (a) a package item and (b) had a less egregious impact on the game at its peak than Chieftain’s Ironthorn currently does. CiT is completely free, so it’s not like anybody paid for this shield or will have their wallets affected by a balance change.

You're most certainly mistaken if you think it didn't have the same impact, if not worse. My question to you, at the peak of Zealot and their clones, did you ever consider using another weapon? The damage boost was so significant that it pretty much rendered most other weapons obsolete. You'd use them with armor skills, with regular attacks, against bosses etc.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 7
10/25/2019 3:28:50   
Dreiko Shadrack
Member

CIT for Berserk status infliction and STR booster 2020
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 8
11/16/2019 18:28:45   
battlesiege15
Member

I remember at one point, staff were not so sure about shields having offensive capabilities. Well, at least LB I'm pretty sure stated that, not sure about the other staff members. To this, I guess all I have to say is that we have weapons that are defensive, defensive armors that have offensive capabilities, offensive armors with defensive capabilities, pets and guests that can be both offensive and defensive, etc. I don't see how making shields do something more than just be defensive would hurt overall gameplay.


Changing this shield would cause a lot of uproar amongst players unfortunately but I do agree that a level 100 shield shouldn't be so widely used by top level players.

I think a little trial run of a shield that is on updated standards that provides the same flavor of boosts could be implemented to test the waters with players. This is going to be a straight up suggestion that I've brought up before but probably can't post in the suggestions forum as it is an 'update to an existing item':

1. Update the shield's Earth resistance and MRM to current standards (-24% to Earth with +17 MRM like the Osiris shield).
2. Replace the +9% to other elements with a flat +(15/1.4)% so it's got a penalty for every situation.
3. Add a Berserk status [BTH lean]*[Booster guest scaling modifiers], NOTE: Booster modifier = Dunami's current formula but with STR and END as minor stat.
4. No magic modifiers pls. Magic weapons getting a 4/3* boost for everything will always put magic weapon damage on top especially with compounding damage boosts.
quote:

This massive shield is part of the traditional battle gear of the Chief of the IronThorn clan of trolls. It bestows immense physical power (x1.5 weapon and special damage) to its holder at the cost of accuracy (-10 BtH to the same).


These changes would still help the shield remain as a pure physical power booster while having better overall resistances and keeping it's compensatory damage increase.

I'm not sure how much more or less beneficial a straight up STR drive would be but tbh I don't think a STR toggle would be as true to the nature of the shield /shrug
AQ AQW  Post #: 9
11/17/2019 16:41:06   
Kilvakar
Member

Forgive my ignorance as a player who's stuck with a mage build since I started, but is CIT really that overpowered? I know it's on old standards, and it's a favorite item for warrior builds to use in wars, but is it an item that has to be used in regular quests in order for warriors to do well?
AQ  Post #: 10
11/17/2019 17:23:43   
lolerster
Member
 

To the people that are saying that Warriors can't compete without CIT...has you all forgotten that mages ALSO can use CIT + Bloodzerker/Subrace/HSVV/WKZ/Taladosian/Imbue effects? This is not a warrior exclusive thing. The only difference is that they have the option of choosing the more accurate and convenient mana nukes vs. the harder hitting and regenerating but less convenient SP nukes.

Kilvakar - yes it is. It increases all weapon based damage by 50%, which i why you can easily nuke for 10k+ with Bloodzerkers and old standard armors. Even in boss fights, you can burst with CIT every other turn as very few bosses are immune to celerity. Even as I fill my inventory with that stuff, I recognize that they are unhealthy for the game. Incidentally, speaking of unhealthy for the game, booster pets and Purple Rain also need to die. Even with their last nerf, booster pets are still incredibly unbalanced.

< Message edited by lolerster -- 11/18/2019 9:26:59 >
AQ  Post #: 11
11/17/2019 17:35:42   
J9408
Member

@Kilvakar If you want very high damage numbers, yes.

But generally speaking no. None of my characters have it and they do just fine against the latest monsters and bosses.

However, as Seth Hydra said, it is useful for warring and farming.
Post #: 12
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