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Effect of no enhancements on balance, test!

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3/13/2012 13:08:13   
Remorse
Member

Hey fellow players of ED,

Enhcemants is a well known problem in many eyes, though the extent of knowing it as the root of the problem is unclear.



SO!

I chalenge the, to test out balance without enhamcnets by using unenhaced gear AND chalanging one another (who are also participating) while using weaker version of well renown OPED builds and post there results here to be DISCUSSED :)


I will also try this test and post my results.

Perhaps if interesting results occur, a change in the enchements system could occur and the game could improve majorly.

Also feel free to discuss if you think enahments are the key problem to alot of EDs problems

OR

If you disagree and think enhaments arnt a problem.

But remember to support you answer and no flaming etc.

-Remorse Less.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 3/13/2012 13:12:49 >
Epic  Post #: 1
3/13/2012 13:20:11   
rayniedays56
Member

I tried this a month ago actually, before the NERF on Tact Mercs and Cybers.

I used a high DEX build/multi shot like I have now and my friend used a High Strength/Medium Smoke build.


I believe my Dex was 80+17 (my weaps enhancements before enhancements....lol...)
His strength was 100+12


I still was able to win with a reasonable amount of health left. It was a LONG battle though lol.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 2
3/13/2012 13:21:42   
PivotalDisorder
Member

but who has unenhanced gear? and once you get them enhanced you can't switch them off.
Post #: 3
3/13/2012 13:22:36   
rayniedays56
Member

Just buy credit weaps and test them :)
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 4
3/13/2012 13:25:03   
PivotalDisorder
Member

that would be non-var. who cares about their results :PPP
Post #: 5
3/13/2012 13:25:27   
Remorse
Member

If your an oldie player like me,

You would prberly have alot of well used old rare wepons :) which are unenehanced or close enought to enenhaced.

Also things like the dleta sword etc. wepons from promo packs, I would be suprised if people actuly enahced everything they have...... I dont even have one FULLy enahnced set..
It doesnt really matter if its a few points enahanced etc.

The point is to see if battles are more staretgy based, and if they are less luck based.
And also if popular Oped build would be counterable more esily after.

AND if it improves variety as the Power builds wont force other to be tank/power builds themsleves.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 3/13/2012 13:26:46 >
Epic  Post #: 6
3/13/2012 13:27:29   
rayniedays56
Member

Just cause someone is non var does not mean that they are meaningless. i was non var until lvl 33 and I was very good.


BTW like Remorse said a lot of players have Rare items they've NEVER used :) (whistles as I pick up wraith reapers and nighwraith duds...)
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 7
3/13/2012 13:29:24   
Remorse
Member

If you think about it,

There isnt alot of diffrence between var and NON varium gear, in alot of cases there only 3-5 stats off the varium alternates the main diffrence setting apart them is enahmnets.

So if enahments was proved to be bad for balance and a revamp made, it would defintaly be good at decreasing the var non var gap.
Epic  Post #: 8
3/13/2012 13:40:04   
PivotalDisorder
Member

Yeah I see your point [about players having unenhanced items]


@raynie: any balance update regarding enhancements will boost non-vars anyway so not really sure what they can contribute.
Post #: 9
3/13/2012 13:47:33   
Darkeroid
Member

I may help :3 Meet me 1 hour before the power hour.

EDIT:The power hour after the reset.

< Message edited by Darkeroid -- 3/13/2012 13:59:01 >

_____________________________
Epic  Post #: 10
3/13/2012 15:44:09   
Krawling
Member

Greetings Remorse!

Nice to see someone dedicated to balance.
But i have to respectfully disagree towards your statement about enhancements beeing the problem. I Will state a reason why with an explanation below. I would like to discuss this with you, as two minds is better than one.

Reason one;
Removing enhancements might delay the problem at hand, it might reduce powerbuilds and imbalance, but, with time, better gear will be released. And we will slowly be going back to the problem, do you see what i mean?

Reason two;
Removing enhancements might also upset/displease the majority of players. To be honest, the majority likes big numbers and the feeling of growing mote powerful by, in this example, using enchants.

Solution;
All in my humble opinion, is, look at the game/system as a whole. Try to find the great things of it, that might be creating imbalance. And reduce the impact by changing something major. Seen a good proposal of either remove the agility debuff or increase the health/debuff level. This might itself reduce the powerbuilds 3-shots, so you got that extra turn to react/make the proper decission.

Best regards, Krawling
Post #: 11
3/13/2012 16:03:23   
PivotalDisorder
Member

@Krawling: just curious what class/build you are currently using.
Post #: 12
3/13/2012 16:12:21   
Elf Priest JZaanu
Constructive!


 I agree with Remorse. What enhancements provided was a unaccountable burst in the progression of the game. A player can add a max of 40 enhancements, that is 10x's greater then reward level points of 4 stats. By doing this the landscape of the game changed. With enhancements, overpowered classes/builds were created then they were altered; in addition to, the weaker classes/skills/stats were buffed. Players from that point, they simple class-changed to that next in-line class for domination. Now you add skill weapons and non sacrifice bots, the issue is quite problematic due to this cycle.

Enhancements are the core issue of balance problems. Right after that is simple class change.

Diminishing returns, higher requirement skill use, agility and focus bonus were created to combat this issue over stat heavy builds that dominate the game

The game has to decide which is more important, personal freedom of pvp, or community balance.


I have added so much items to support the game, but it has been an exhausting task to compete with them when one uses the credit only option. With my inventory, I have a very small amount that is fully enhanced (above 4 slots).

The game gives more incentives for class changing then for players who use one character, and/or supplement their play with single class alts.

The the community has addressed this issue, the game chooses or not able to respond in any manner.






< Message edited by JZaanu -- 3/13/2012 16:57:03 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 13
3/13/2012 16:35:41   
Krawling
Member

@PivotalDisorder
Started as support BH way back, changed to BM pretty much at the releaseday. Which I've been ever since. Using a 5 focus/Semi support build which is quiet good.
Post #: 14
3/13/2012 17:06:44   
supermasivo
Member

Nice test, nice idea but not very "real" one... we all know that enhace made this game so unballanced... now ED cant go back couse msot of us bought it with real money... in my case i have expend so much money on enhaces only that i cant even remember the money amount... they could be removed? yes, its a choise... can be they refund? dont think so... i mean $ refund.
So, whats the solution? no solution for this problem... end
Another way could be... make more stats to counter abusive stat builds? for abusive str? +10,11,12 ... armors? maybe, but this could make more unballance too... buff str build? dont think so... now the str builds are a problem itself... so can anybody tell whats the solution?
srry if i make some offtopic.
Epic  Post #: 15
3/13/2012 17:22:58   
JohnMenzies
Member

Easy fix:

  • Just lower credit enhancement cost. Even though some players use varium to enhance their weapons, although players have a choice, but some players rather not wait to save up the credits. (Non-Varium Players would have an easier time getting them)

  • Make Varium Enhancements slightly lower, about 1k(1,000) varium for a total of 10 Enhancements (Instead of the current 1,700 Varium cost). This will make varium players less irritated about the credit enhancement decrease.

  • Make a couple rare Non-Varium weapons which have 10 enhancement slots (Maybe lower the stat modifiers on the weapons to make them less like Varium weapons).


_____________________________

- John
Epic  Post #: 16
3/13/2012 17:47:07   
Ranloth
Banned


 Sorry to burst your buble, John, but 10 enhancements for Non-Varium weapon will not happen. Amount of slots depends on rarity of the item - seasonal rare gets +2 more slots, Varium gets +2 and (Ultra) Rare gets another +2. +4 is basic for a weapon at higher Levels, so you see now why.
Well that's the case for newer items and heard so before, not sure how accurate it is but it was said sometime ago by the Staff on how it works.
AQ Epic  Post #: 17
3/13/2012 17:57:51   
TurkishIncubus
Member

@JohnMenzies

If i understand right this is not about Varium vs Non Varium enhancements. I think they want to say Enhancements give too much bonus on a single stat and that make the power builds OP. Like caster Mage or Str BM or Str CH

On Topic:

Its too late to remove enhancements players already spent tons of varium. Everybody will agree on enhancements are the problem but without a solution the topic will not solve anything.

If Developers decide removing enhancements and refund every varium we spent on enhance than there is not problem on players side but if they remove it without refund most of the players will quit because they have spent their money on nothing.

_____________________________
Epic  Post #: 18
3/13/2012 18:03:15   
AQWPlayer
Member

I got enough credits for a new set of weps so...what weps u want me to use?
Credits: 75k
Unenhanced item list:
Pirate Blunderbuss
Robo Pirate Staff
Hero's Heart Broadsword
Maple Cleaver
Seraph Armor P M
Seraph Armor E M
Bio Hazard Husk P
Pirate Cannon
Rusted Assault bot
...and Hero's Heart Set has 2 enhancements.
I'd gladly help out as a nonvarium TM :3
AQW  Post #: 19
3/13/2012 18:21:35   
Basicball
Member

my unehanced gear:

guns:
Outlaw Elite
Rusted SpecOps Pistol (2)
Beta Blaster (lvl 25)
Dragon's Breath

Staves:
Harvest Reaper
Azrael's Curse
Delta Staff
Apprentice Staff
Spirit Pike

Swords:
Energy Katana
Pumpkleaver
Beta Cleaver (lvl 25)
Frost Slayer

Clubs (unusable as i'm a mage):
Basic Club

Wrist Blades (unusable as i'm a mage):
Delta Daggers

Armors:
Bio Hazard Husk P (5)
Bio Hazard Husk E
Founder Armor (lvl 12)
Tesla Armor E

Auxes:
Light Bazooka
Pie Launcher
Beta Bazooka (lvl 25)
Cake Launcher
Legion Cannon

Bots:
all

just pm me and tell me what gear to equip

_____________________________
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 20
3/13/2012 20:52:36   
Elf Priest JZaanu
Constructive!


 Taking a view at my inventory and listing all varium items except 1 (Bio Hazard Armor) I am amazed how little I have enhanced. So where did all my credits go you make ask? I invested quite a bit into my homes and continually purchase new items to support the game. Also with the style of play I use, I do use quite a bit of booster.



Staves

Horror
Serpent
Arctic
Cryomancer
Xeno
Gatekeeper
Arctic Dragon
Draconic Devastator
Beta Brutalizer
Morning Star

Sidearms

Elite Magnum
Imperial ACP
Beta Blaster
Magnum jr
Stun Cannon


Swords

Tech Cleaver 2
Beta Cleaver





Armors

Desert Cyborg
Founder (lvl25)
Bio Hazard E


Auxiliaries

Beta Bazooka
Zueszooka
Bunnyzooka
Lightning Rod
Spectral Blaster
Ghoul Cannon
Eggzooka

< Message edited by JZaanu -- 3/13/2012 20:53:29 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 21
3/14/2012 12:36:09   
Remorse
Member

Hey guys,

Sorry to answer late,

But here it is,

I agree with alot of the issues involved with reversing the effect of enehamnets.

I have came up with a few ideas some with a very minimal sacrifise the game has to make.


My favorite option (but would be a large change), Im sure many of you would of already heard and that is to change enahments form being bonus stats to simply changeable wepons stats.

What do I mean?? Instead of bonus stats you can arrange your current wepons stats around but only by the amount of enahments the wepons has.

EG. if you wnated to make a frostbane a STR wepon gigivng it as much STR as possible.
With the current system it would be, 10STR,8dex,8tech,8supp.
With my change it would be, 10 STR 8 dex, 6 tech ( the change was 8 points removed from sup and 2 from tech using abll 10 enahmcnet slots.)

This means piling after this change would give Obvious and clear disadvanatges such as lower defence and needing lower hp etc.
But at the same time players can still pile so this change WONT ruin variety in these areas it would just increase counters.



Also another issue people say is refunding.

I think it would be a good idea anyway even if they didnt want to change enahments to add an enhancement sellback.

The sellback could vary depening if they change enahmcnets or not etc.

Essentialy having to indinvidualy refund people should not have to be something the devs have to do I agree so instead let players refund themsleves with a sellback.


I have thought about this topic for a long time and I perosanly think that us as all the players could take on board a changes like this, Some may not like the idea at first but we have to remember that alot of players dont like alot of EDs past ideas, so a fairly major one like this wont exactly be something new.
It cant be worse then the feeling I got when they added gun and aux enahments, (little part of my character died that day xD)

Plus when the changes effects sink into balance and once people realise that the changes ARE NOT NERFS then Im pretty sure players will apreciate it.

And Im definately sure they would apreciate the fact that enahments wont be COMPULSARY for playing at a competeitive varium standard.
So players would be givin more flexiable use of wepons allowing players to use more wepons as they dont HAVE to individualy enahnce them all just for the same competetive standard as everyone else.
Which would jopefully lead to more wepon purchases etc.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 3/14/2012 12:41:37 >
Epic  Post #: 22
3/14/2012 12:41:15   
TurkishIncubus
Member

^ than item stats will lose its importance and the only important thing will be item requirements
Epic  Post #: 23
3/14/2012 12:48:02   
Remorse
Member

^ Item stats will definately not lose importance,
infact it would gain importatance.


WHY?

Because enhanceing IS expansive, Often more then another individual wepon.

So players would more likely buy diverse wepon sets then enhance one set, after all players are aware that wepons depreciate so not having to use nehamnets would be a bonus, if there willing to buy more wepons.


Also

The changce in importance of wepons stats placement would be no diffrent to it is currently.

Currently if you want a wepons that is useful for say STR builds then you get a wepons with decent STR dex and tech.
Then you add the enahcments to STR. for example say you had a wepon with 8 STR 8 Dex and 8 tech then you add 10 to STR so 18 STR.

With my change If you wnated to get 18 stats in STR you would STILL need a wepons which already gives plus 8 STR so prexsisting wepons stats STILL matter to the same degree.

If you think about it for a while you can see why yourself. (if you cant understand my explaining.)


< Message edited by Remorse -- 3/14/2012 12:50:33 >
Epic  Post #: 24
3/14/2012 13:03:39   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 Enhancements aren't a bane to creativity. Say I like the looks of a weapon but it doesn't quite give the stats I want. I could put the enhancements into that area instead of buying a new weapon that I don't find as appealing. I could have a Str Boosting staff but use it for a strength build instead. Removing enhancements lowers the flexibility I have with my weapons. Implementing Remorse's suggestion will be seen as a nerf by many players and by others as a huge money scam. Implementing a sell back that only affects the player who bought them beforehand will be tricky to implement. Plus, removing all the extra stats from a player could cause numerous problems. The Retrain bug where the game autobanned you was a result of it counting enhancements as stats you shouldn't have had. I assume something similar would happen if the game stopped counting the enhancements. And another problem would be that the diminishing returns would have to be revamped again because they aren't going to be any extra stats it needs to compensate for. Overall, it would be a lot of work when a standardized enhancement system could be used instead(Phase Gear Promos getting 10 slots, Seasonal Promos getting 8, Every other varium item 6 non varium gear 4.) Why such a small gap between varium and non varium items? Because there are 4 items to enhance so the difference between the enhancements overall is 2 levels.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 25
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