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Balancing Strength to Support (with proofing)

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12/1/2012 20:01:16   
Stabilis
Member

This thread is to suggest with reasoning for 1 of 2 options:

  • Auxiliary improves by 1 damage point per 1 Support stat

    or

  • Support receives the Sidearm from Strength

    OK, big issue. Excluding the Robot, which is clearly a weapon that improves by Focus and Technology, there are 3 weapons between Strength and Support... which are the: Primary, Sidearm, and Auxiliary.

    First of all, because it is an odd number- 3, we can not split a weapon into 2... or can we? It is definitely illogical for how hard you pull the trigger the more damage your gun does anyways. But anyhow! We are working with- in the standard equations... 2 weapons for Strength and 1 weapon for Support or 1 weapon for Strength and 2 weapons for Support.

    To give you the gist of things, Strength and Support progress in stat progression at the same rate, so here is the first diagram outlining gross damage (y) over time in turns (x):

  • as individual weapons

  • as stats, as stats (weapon directory)

    *gross damage is damage before subtracting Defense or Resistance*

    *I used the value 35 for my constants... weapon damage, level, damage from stats, Defense and Resistance, etc...*

    *rage, blocking, deflecting, skills, are not included due to inconsistency*

    The equations used here are:

  • Primary Damage = ((a+b-c)(x-1))/(d+1)+a+b-c
    a = 35 (damage from stat), b = 35 (damage from weapon), c = 0 (Defense or Resistance), d = 0 (cooldown of weapon)

  • Sidearm Damage = ((a+b-c)(x-1))/(d+1)+a+b-c
    a = 35 (damage from stat), b = 35 (damage from weapon), c = 0 (Defense or Resistance), d = 2 (cooldown of weapon)

  • Auxiliary Damage = ((a+b-c)(x-1))/(d+1)+a+b-c
    a = 35 (damage from stat), b = 35 (damage from weapon), c = 0 (Defense or Resistance), d = 3 (cooldown of weapon)

    Now that we have a basic understanding of the 3 weapons before Defense and Resistance, let us see what damage REALLY looks like with Defense and Resistance included:

  • as weapons

  • as stats, as stats (weapon directory)

    As expected, the damage per turn halved. Why? First of all, the equations are the first 3 equations with c = 35. The damage is equal to a constant plus a constant minus a constant. Since all 3 constants had the same value, the damage was equal to 1 constant as opposed to 2 constant values in the first graphs.


    From this I can concur with the following information:

    The Primary weapon has the most damage over time potential, more than the Sidearm, more than the Auxiliary; 3 times, and 4 times more... respectively... due to cooldowns.

    With the damage from the Primary with the damage of the Sidearm, Strength severely overpowers Support and has absolute seeking potential (2 defence types (Defense or Resistance), 2 weapons) while Support does not.


    Now, that we have declared a significant hole in stat balance between 2 stats, we will be exploring the possible results if the Auxiliary were to progress at a faster rate OR have Support acquire the Sidearm.

    The change in equations are simple (as opposed to getting the original equation), the first option we will examine is if the Auxiliary were to progress in damage by 1 point per 1 Support stat.

    Here are the resulting equations:

  • Primary Damage = ((a+b-c)(x-1))/(d+1)+a+b-c
    a = 35 (damage from stat), b = 35 (damage from weapon), c = 0 (Defense or Resistance), d = 0 (cooldown of weapon)

  • Sidearm Damage = ((a+b-c)(x-1))/(d+1)+a+b-c
    a = 35 (damage from stat), b = 35 (damage from weapon), c = 0 (Defense or Resistance), d = 2 (cooldown of weapon)

  • Auxiliary Damage = ((4a+b-c)(x-1))/(d+1)+a+b-c
    a = 35 (damage from stat), b = 35 (damage from weapon), c = 0 (Defense or Resistance), d = 3 (cooldown of weapon)

    And here are the resulting graphs:

  • as weapons

  • as stats (weapon directory)

    So with this change to Auxiliary stat damage progression (4 times the normal rate), the Auxiliary already surpasses the Sidearm in damage! Hurray! It does not challenge the Primary yet. Awww.

    So, let us take a check of what damage is like WITH Defense and Resistance included, shall we?:

  • as weapons

  • as stats (weapon directory)

    The Auxiliary now challenges the Primary in net damage (the ACTUAL damage)! We are getting somewhere, in this proposal, Strength's most damaging weapon is now challenged by Support's most damaging weapon in damage over time of course. But since the same weapon or same action to say blandly- is not used each turn, this Auxiliary would be worth 4 Primaries (4 turns) in 1 turn. Since the Auxiliary grants a bonus of 3 turns to do whatever, while Striking would require each turn, Support would have a time advantage with optional skills prepared. But Strength can still seek elements... so, are 2 weaker but faster weapons on par with 1 stronger but slower weapon? I may have to examine that later on. This proposal for a quadruple progression rate is basically completed, so now we will move onto Sidearm being coupled with the Auxiliary in Support.


    December 2/12:

    OK, continuing off of yesterday (and to be honest here reading the end of my post I think I was getting insomnia loopiness), we will be investigating the potential of moving the Sidearm over to Support.

    To start off, why would I consider suggesting moving the weapon over? Bluntly, the Primary is a self-sufficient weapon. There are no turns in which it will not be available. That causes Strike to be the most reliable option in the game. The basic "attack" button. Strike can also be manipulated to great damage with Strength or melee skills such as Berzerker or Static Charge. Because the Strike option lacks cooldown while the other 2 weapons both have more than 1 cooldown (therefore the weapons are not able to be spammed continuously), we will test the potential of a dual-weapon combo... Sidearm and Auxiliary.

    To start off here is the preliminary graph for damage before Defense and Resistance:

  • as stats (weapon directory)

    Even with the Sidearm included, Support has less potential to do damage per turn than the Primary by itself. Why is that? Cooldowns. Here is a visual representation by series of events for Primary VS Sidearm and Auxiliary:

    *X = the weapon was used, O = the weapon was not used*

    Primary:
    |X|...|X|...|X|...|X|...|X|...|X|...|X|...|X|...|X|...|X|...|X|...|X|

    Sidearm:
    |X|...|O|...|O|...|X|...|O|...|O|...|X|...|O|...|O|...|X|...|O|...|O|

    Auxiliary:
    |X|...|O|...|O|...|O|...|X|...|O|...|O|...|O|...|X|...|O|...|O|...|O|

    Sidearm + Auxiliary:
    |X1|...|X2|...|O|...|X1|...|O|...|X2|...|X1|...|O|...|O|...|X1|...|X2|...|O|

    If I am correct, since the Sidearm has a cooldown of 2 (or once per 3 turns), and Auxiliary has a cooldown of 3 (or once per 4 turns)... Sidearm has a cooldown rating of 1/3 and Auxiliary is 1/4. So if I add those together I get a rating of 7/12. When I count the number of Xs in "Sidearm + Auxiliary", what do you know, I get 7 out of 12 hits for X.

    Thus, explains the vast difference in damage output with Primary having no cooldown.

    For the equations used in the graphs, I used:

  • Primary Damage = ((a+b-c)(x-1))/(d+1)+a+b-c
    a = 35 (damage from stat), b = 35 (damage from weapon), c = 0 (Defense or Resistance), d = 0 (cooldown of weapon)

  • Sidearm + Auxiliary Damage = ((a+b-c)(x-1))/(d+1)+a+b-c+((a+b-c)(x-1))/(e+1)
    a = 35 (damage from stat), b = 35 (damage from weapon), c = 0 (Defense or Resistance), d = 2 (cooldown of weapon) [sidearm], e = 3 (cooldown of weapon) [auxiliary]

    Now to show what things would look like WITH Defense and Resistance, net damage:

  • as stats (weapon directory)

    Still considerably lower damage per turn than the Primary by itself.


    I have arrived at this conclusion, no matter the type of weapon used, time is the most influential factor in damage. Since the Primary weapon is not bound by time and that the Sidearm and Auxiliary have an equal or similar damage rating (currently 35 damage but up to 39 for Auxiliaries), it would be reasonably balanced to allow Support to acquire the Sidearm from Strength. Why I would not suggest improving the progression rate of the Auxiliary is because of the grand potential for exploitation. The last thing I think of is buffing because of these possibilities. Include Defense or Reistance and a Strike will damage less per turn than an Auxiliary that improves more times than the Auxiliary takes to cooldown (example 3:2 or 5:1 ratio). The effects:

  • Strength loses seeking ability

  • Strength is entirely influenced by blocking

  • Strength's potential damage per turn is not affected excluding seeking

  • Support gains seeking ability

  • Support gains a cooldown advantage (but still less than 0 cooldown)

    < Message edited by Depressed Void -- 12/2/2012 14:29:14 >
    • AQ Epic  Post #: 1
    12/1/2012 20:33:36   
    Vegafire
    Member

    		So basically running aux on both str and support? just at a lesser ratio than it would be currently? i like the sound of it, auxes are underpowered even with their massive +, i like this idea and support it but i think they may be rebuffind support with this update meaning that Aux damage is higher as it stand's for example +1 damage could require 6 points untill 55 then 7 and 8 at 85, well they could just lower it to 5 to 55, 6 to 85 and 7 after this (like Primary and Sidearm damage) ?
    AQW Epic  Post #: 2
    12/1/2012 20:53:01   
    Stabilis
    Member

    quote:

    So basically running aux on both str and support?


    A faster progression rate or Sidearm to Support.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 3
    12/1/2012 20:57:04   
    Vegafire
    Member

    		They may implement a new equipteable item that runs on support though, something like a secondry weapon? not a sidearm but another primary in a sence allowing the user to have both physical and energy "primary" weapons equiped, in which case i think sidearms would be handed over to support.
    AQW Epic  Post #: 4
    12/1/2012 21:23:36   
    Stabilis
    Member

    		I would be fine with a 4th weapon, I am not sure if others would be though.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 5
    12/1/2012 21:28:19   
    Vegafire
    Member

    		Yes it would allow for more Stats but each player would be able to get them so no player could complain where balancing is concerned
    AQW Epic  Post #: 6
    12/1/2012 22:09:28   
    ND Mallet
    Legendary AK!!!


    		 1. If 1 support=1 damage then you need to compensate highly elsewhere to prevent support abuse. Because as it is now, you could easily get 130+ support plus the 35+ on aux and have a damage potential of almost 170. And unless someone put everything into defending against that one type and threw up the best shield they could manage then they'd be hit by over 100 damage. And that's assuming it isn't a TM/CH using Malf with it or any crits. To balance this would require doing the 1 point improvement for dex and tech as well since def should be more easily obtained than attack but that would leave strength so far behind that it would need huge buffs as well. And then health would need buffed too or we'd have 1 hit shots all the time. And we really wouldn't be anywhere different than where we started except inflated numbers everywhere aside from energy.

    2. The problem here is mainly TMs. Malf and Aux is a deadly combo as it is for support mages. Throwing in DA with their guns also improving with support is overkill at that point.

    I personally think that the planned changes to Field Medic will be fine for a buff. I honestly find it a good stat as it is without changes.
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 7
    12/2/2012 13:37:00   
    goldslayer1
    Member

    		not supported for the 1 support stat = 1 aux damage

    however ur gun damage change is interesting.
    i suggested before about changing the gun damage to be a combination of str and support (a full change to support would cause some problems tho)
    basically the collective total of str and support decides the gun damage.
    this would include a change in the damage scale for gun
    it lowered the gun damage for str builds, and increased it for support builds.
    at the high end str and support builds (basically anything with 100+) str loses about 5-8 damage, and support builds gains 5-8 damage on the gun damage.


    ill quote my old suggestion.
    quote:

    quote:

    18: 4-5
    20: 5-6
    24: 6-8
    28: 7-9
    32: 8-10
    36: 9-11
    40: 10-12
    44: 11-14
    48: 12-15
    52: 13-16
    57: 14-17
    62: 15-18
    67: 16-20
    72: 17-21
    77: 18-22
    82: 19-23
    87: 20-24
    93: 21-26
    99: 22-27
    105: 23-28
    111: 24-29
    117: 25-30
    123: 26-32
    129: 27-33
    135: 28-34
    141: 29-35
    147: 30-36
    153: 31-38
    159: 32-39
    165: 33-40




    as u can see heres the current progression for side arms.
    the way it would work is, if ur a pure str build ur gun damage goes down (due to low support)
    and if ur a support build, ur gun damage slightly goes up.

    after the crazy nerfs on support to me this would only be the fair thing to do to balance them out.

    we had field medic not removed from improving with support.
    curse effects to lower support added on weapons. (and now recently armors too)
    deflections moved to technology.
    robots released to nullify the use of auxiliary and gun.
    and yet another robot to decrease the shields that players cast (most of which work on support)
    is there anything i missed?

    heres what the progression would look like.

    40: 5-6
    48: 6-8
    56 7-9
    64: 8-10
    72: 9-11
    80: 10-12
    88: 11-14
    96: 12-15
    104: 13-16
    112: 14-17
    120: 15-18
    128: 16-20
    136: 17-21
    144: 18-22
    152: 19-23
    160: 20-24
    168: 21-26
    176: 22-27
    184: 23-28
    192: 24-29
    200: 25-30
    208: 26-32
    216: 27-33
    224: 28-34
    232: 29-35
    240: 30-36
    248: 31-38

    now lets say a str TLM has build with 123 str. and about 32 support
    with 123 str, his gun damage is 26-32
    now with this support/str improvement to gun damage, his gun damage will be 19-23.

    now lets use this in support tlm
    lets say 123 support. and about 32 str.
    with 32 str his gun damage will be 8-10

    with the support increase his gun damage goes to 19-23

    point of this is, lower gun damage to str builds, increase it to support builds.
    nothing too little, nothing too large.


    < Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 12/2/2012 13:40:34 >
    AQW Epic  Post #: 8
    12/2/2012 14:44:34   
    Stabilis
    Member

    		I finished the post. I concluded that switching the Sidearm to Support would be a more recommended option than improving the progression rate because of the potential to exploit near-fatal damage in 1 turn.

    To quote the ND Moose,

    quote:

    The problem here is mainly TMs. Malf and Aux is a deadly combo as it is for support mages. Throwing in DA with their guns also improving with support is overkill at that point.


    To finalize the swap to Support, the following events will be required to occur- specifically events directly and indirectly related to the Support stat and weapons:

  • The Deadly Aim skill's stat requirement will be moved to Strength, or if possible, swap Deadly Aim for a new skill that does not boost a weapon's damage (a weapon being any option granted by owning a specific piece of equipment in EpicDuel that already improves by 1 stat without an energy cost)

  • The Malfunction skill's stat requirement will be removed and the improvement stat will become Dexterity to be on par with Smokescreen but improve by 1 point of Technology per 5 Dexterity stats since Dexterity's bonuses improve slower than Technology's

  • Rage rate swaps from Support to Strength to balance stat perks but also to give Strike improved potential to verse tank players since seeking is lost

  • Stun rate swaps from Support to Strength to balance stat perks

    Fair enough? Or not? What do you think?
    • AQ Epic  Post #: 9
    12/2/2012 15:50:13   
    goldslayer1
    Member

    		@void
    thats not really helping support then.
    ur asking too much to do too little.
    rage rate and stun on str would only power str builds alot more.
    most str builds use small support, and they get rage after their 4th turn (if not in their 4th for some)
    on top of that, stunning them would no longer be an effective option against them, this would bring match up problems for caster builds, and make stuns less usefull than they already are for most builds.

    the solution needed (IMO) is to reduce power for str builds and increase it for support.
    i believe changing the sidearm damage to be strength and support would work out better.
    since str builds dont use much support, gun damage will go down for them.
    since support builds dont use as much strength as str builds, gun damage will go up for support builds.

    < Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 12/2/2012 15:52:55 >
    AQW Epic  Post #: 10
    12/2/2012 19:44:53   
    Stabilis
    Member

    		The rage and stun rates are an advantage to Strength, but at the cost of losing the Sidearm. Strength really gets rage fast because of how rage is calculated. The role of outgoing damage for rage overwhelms the role for incoming damage. Rage is not offence-defence balanced, so it is natural that Strength benefits the most as it does today.

    I do not recall stunning being a beneficial option more than a destructive option against Strength. The improvement rate to damage ratio on stunning skills is supposedly balanced, but with the heavy energy cost, having the opponent lose their turn at about 5 damage for you to lose 16 energy is more a loss for the stunner.

    The other thing, is that the player using the stun skill has an extreme Dexterity or Technology stat so they would be a tank themselves. The added stun/rage rate is a counter to this. Rage needs a revamp though.

    Thanks gor your 2 responses.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 11
    12/2/2012 19:51:00   
    goldslayer1
    Member

    		@void
    wouldn't it be much easier to just change the gun damage though?
    the suggested quote i posted basically shoots 2 birds with 1 stone.

    and as for stuns, weren't they making the stuns more useful in terms of damage in the future?
    AQW Epic  Post #: 12
    12/2/2012 20:04:50   
    Stabilis
    Member

    		It could work with a split stat. If it is an equal split though, how come Strength reduces the damage while Support does the opposite? If it were conjointly Focus-style, like 50 Strength and 50 Support gives the Sidearm 15 damage, you could get a true balance without allowing a full Strength or full Support mix to be able to exploit the gun.

    They might be reinventing stunning skills later on. The problem is, too much damage AND stunning is worth 2 turns of attacking. Stunning skills would be balanced if they were a guaranteed stun but no damage and low to no energy cost.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 13
    12/2/2012 20:10:16   
    goldslayer1
    Member

    quote:

    It could work with a split stat. If it is an equal split though, how come Strength reduces the damage while Support does the opposite?

    its not an equal split.
    all it does is take the collective total of support and str, and puts it up on a new progression.

    so while 4 str may increase the damage of gun now, it will take 8 str/support (any of these) to increase it later.

    basically the progression doubles from what it is now, but includes both of these stats.
    and naturally since str builds have low support, they will have a lower gun damage because of their total.

    while support builds have low str, adding that bunch of support increase their total, therefore their damage.

    and this does what it should do. decrease damage for str builds, increase it for support builds.
    see my other thread about it, it explains how it works.

    and the extra thing about this is, it doesn't affect gun damage much (might make it better) for focus builds since they usually have equal support and str.

    < Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 12/2/2012 20:12:40 >
    AQW Epic  Post #: 14
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