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12/29/2012 11:32:28   
Stabilis
Member

Multi-shot, Artillery, Plasma Rain.

In 2V2, balance was an issue for these skills in the past starting with Artillery, then Multi-shot, then Plasma Rain, all for being "too powerful". We never took the initiative until recently to get to the roots of the problem. Damage. Just recently we changed multi-target skills to do reduced damage when attacking 2 targets. The question still stands... what does energy cost have to do with this?

When attacking 2 targets, the energy cost is 12 energy more... never more, never less. Why? What about 12 besides being the product of 3 and 4? I find the energy costs to be inconclusive to reason. So let us talk about the use of energy costs then.

Energy costs are simply physical limits in a battle that you can control and manage which and how many skills to be used. It is certainly a core of battle mechanics because they influence the 1 single use of energy, the ability to use energy-costing skills. Energy costs can determine a few articles, for 1, the maximum number of charges that such a skill can be used for by using the I÷ (integer division) of your energy from the energy cost of a skill. Such is an example, 67 energy and a skill that costs 13 energy. 67 // 13 is 5 (there were 2 remainders). This means that with 67 energy you can use the 13 energy skill up to 5 times.

Honestly speaking though, energy costs really only prevent continual "abuse" or exploitation as I call it. Guess what else does that, and sometimes even better? Cooldowns. Cooldowns limit skills to time, energy cost limits skills to charges (number of uses). All in all, with a perfect cooldown to energy cost relationship, can be used to procure the near-perfect balance for all and any skills. Heavy duty attacks to be limited by a large energy and cooldown limit... minor defensive skills to be limited by a small energy and cooldown limit... ideally this would be THE system for managing skills.

But... a constant of +12 energy on multiple target skills regardless of level or stat points? This is... unfruitful to me anyhow. That is my thought alone on the cost not being dynamic. Not to say anything about the method of determining their damage... yet.

I propose that we remove the energy cost difference between 1 target and 2 targets and use a single energy cost for both scenarios. As an example, a maximum energy cost of 45 energy and minimum of 25.

What do you think specifically about multi-target skills and energy costs? Reasonable or no?
AQ Epic  Post #: 1
12/29/2012 14:11:30   
Hun Kingq
Member

Depressed Void, you are correct the energy costs of the mutlis are too high on classes with non energy regaining skill is too high for the little damage they give except for Artillery strike for some unknown reason still gives fairly decent damage.


They say a single shot can kill you or do more damage. Take hail if one hail ball hits you, you can survive but if it is multi Golf ball size hail non stop to be less crude let say the paramedics will find a mess or like vehicles in a car lot in Texas a hail storm came and people said,"after it was done there was not enough bondo to even make them close to new.
Epic  Post #: 2
12/29/2012 14:16:31   
Waxor9001
Member

Supported, that would make them less underpowered.
Epic  Post #: 3
12/29/2012 18:49:29   
NDB
Member

Wouldn't that then make it way UP in 1v1 then...? I mean... a 45 energy cost just for 1 player? All caster skill all have a special effect. It's either gonna be extra damage (Bolt/Fireball), Crit+ignore (Bunker/Plasma), Stun, or Multiple target, of course.
With only one target, the Multiple attack skill has lost it's additional effect that all the others have. Therefore, it should cost even less than the others, especially in 1v1.
I think the way they should fix it is simply lower the energy cost in both battle modes, and keep the extra energy needed for 2v2, as it only makes sense since you are doing more damage overall...

< Message edited by NDB -- 12/29/2012 18:53:45 >
Epic  Post #: 4
12/29/2012 18:55:22   
Stabilis
Member

The damage increases but the energy cost stays the same if 1V1.

Then again the skill is designed to target 2 players, not 1.

Edit: It makes sense if it costs more energy against 2 targets, at the same time, no it does not if the damage decreases as well.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 12/29/2012 18:58:28 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 5
12/30/2012 1:39:24   
NDB
Member

And yet, although it is weaker, it still does a total of 50% more damage than in 1v1... I don't get it
Epic  Post #: 6
12/30/2012 5:34:02   
theholyfighter
Member

See if I understood what you meant:
Either
Make multi skills deal 85% damage with the energy cost the same as hitting one target
Or
Make multi skills deal 100% damage with the energy cost the energy required to hit 2 targets
AQW Epic  Post #: 7
12/30/2012 10:09:37   
Stabilis
Member

A, I choose A! What is the prize?!

Edit: NDB,

Imagine you empty a watering can onto an orange tree. 100% of the 5 liters is absorbed by the 1 tree. Or you can empty 50% of the water onto 1 tree for 2.5 liters and 50% of the water onto another tree for 2.5 liters. What is unreasonable is having 12 more energy cost for 2 targets. Imagine you pour 55% of water of the watering can onto 1 tree and 55% onto another... 110%! This is "impossible" mathematically because there is no extra 10% of water that could be used to water trees, only the given 100%. Does this answer your question better? The 12 extra energy represents external "sinks" that take more than needed.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 12/30/2012 10:19:08 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 8
12/30/2012 10:29:51   
Ranloth
Banned


 So I deal 100% damage on 1 enemy or if I'm versing 2 enemies, I can deal 170% damage at the same cost? Where's fairness in that? BMs and BHs can get the most out of it due to Blood Lust which is a passive skill (BC is very situational).
If you are to deal more damage, you should pay more Energy. Excuse of "I don't have EP regen, halp pl0x. I suk." is not valid, same can be said about classes without BL and how they don't have HP regen. If you don't have EP regen then train your Energy. Likelyhood is that you have better skills that can cover for the lack of EP regen.

Also using your example is irrelevant. It does try to prove your point but we're discussing PvP game and balance, not watering trees. Cost is fine as it is. Skill isn't supposed to be used in 1v1 since it has weaker damage than say Plasma Bolt (using TM as example), and it's Multi for a reason since it hits 2 enemies. It's fine as it is, don't change something that is balanced because it'll create imbalance. Trying to improve something that is good already will just make it worse.
AQ Epic  Post #: 9
12/30/2012 10:43:56   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 @void The increased energy cost from watering two trees is the energy you spend walking to one from the other. Think of the water you use on them as damage and not energy spent. It also would be more applicable to say you have 17 liters of water but a tree will only hold 10 liters before it starts getting over-watered so you decide to split it to 8.5 per tree when you water both. Like Trans said, when you're using it in 2vs2 you're getting extra damage since you're hitting two targets at once instead of one so you do have to pay extra energy for that damage.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 10
12/30/2012 11:15:00   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 Supported to an extent, but what trans and ND Mallet said are both true. I'm thinking that it'd have to be really slow, such as gaining +1 energy cost against 2 opponents every 3-4 skill point levels or so. Either way, if this were implemented it would be really neat because I could then try uber dex caster on hunter and mages with only 4-7 skill points in their multi-damage attacks.
Epic  Post #: 11
12/30/2012 12:21:02   
Stabilis
Member

Trans and ND Mallet,

Ah, but you see, multi-target skills are area of effect, not concentrated as is a single-target skill like Plasma Bolt. Think of multi-target skills like a cluster bomb. The blast radius is 25 metres and every unit (hostile) inside the blast will take 100 psi of pressure. Now even if 1 lowly unit was in the blast radius, they would still take 100 psi instead of each explosive homing in on them culminating into a greater attack power. This is the reasoning for a multi-target having as much charge to it per hit as any other. Damage is the primary balance aspect since, well, 1000 damage is game-breaking so damage determines the range of possible values that will not under or overshoot an effective attack damage.

quote:

I can deal 170% damage at the same cost? Where's fairness in that?


Accumulatively speaking, the total damage was damage on target 1 plus damage on target 2. There is room for error so that the total between 2 targets would be 170%... but I would expect it to be 200% using the clusterform argument.

To go further, what would you say would be a fine sum of damages between 2 targets? 200% is reasonable but not balance-specific. IF... damage AFTER calculating defenses were to be 75% instead of 75 or 65 or 85 yaddayaddayadda % BEFORE calculating defenses, would this help? Let me see...

Let x be attack damage, y be defenses, z be final damage, p be percent rate (of damage),

(x*p - y) = z (before)
(x-y)*p = z (after)

Throwing in these constants, x = 30, y = 15, p = 50%...

Before: (30*0.5 - 15) = z

z = 0 (...3)

After: (30 - 15)*0.5 = z

z = 7.5 (...8)

So, clearly as shown the percent rate only applies to the damage in "before" as opposed to damage and defenses equally in "after", resulting in "after" producing more damage after calculations. Therefore with this formula the stat progression for multi-attack skills can be slowed, perhaps only half as fast or three quarters as fast as Plasma Bolt.
AQ Epic  Post #: 12
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