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Why is support still in the state it's in?

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10/12/2013 9:47:44   
Khannibal
Member

Last time I was here, well before 2013, Support was the least useful stat and there were talks of rebalancing it as it desperately needed.

Now I'm back again it's not been touched, it's still as underutilized as it ever was, it's fully neglected and the con's of taking it COMPLETELY outweigh the pro's.

Personally, I don't think taking Deflects from support and giving them to tech was ever a good idea, and now more prominently than before that's painfully obvious.

Let me break it down as to why I feel this way;

Tech during beta and Gamma was severely neglected, you either went Dex/Supp, Str/Dex unless you were creative, and it was only with the introduction of Focus and Bots that it became as viable as it is today.

The only use for support i'm seeing at the moment is literally Str/Supp mages so they go first against BM's, Malf stacks knocking down the enemies tech to lower than yours, coupled with deadly aim, you've got a small chance of deflecting a likely critical high strength shot, and for 2v2 Mercs/TLM's with the good old support build, which I always appreciated.

Cast your minds back to early gamma or beta, the most successful, non-cooking cutter builds were Heal loop mages, Support utilizing shield BH's and similar builds.

With the addition of tech deflects, everyone with a +5 build annihilates anyone else, Strength BM's split Stats between Str/Dex and then tech so they hit their shots whilst almost entirely neglecting support except for DA.

Now my issue here is normally i'd let bygones be bygones but i've just tried reviving a Shield Pseudo Support Blood Mage styled around beta BH's, fought a +5 str BM, got annhilated because I got deflected 3 times, blocked and he critted me, despite having 15 more support than him.


The fight that really made me irritated was actually against a player who'd thought outside the box and made a full Dex Tech mage, something I like to see, he had over 150 dex but 17 support.

Having 43 MORE support, and the battle lasting around 9 turns, he got a crit, a deflect and 4 blocks, whereas I got steamrolled.

What i'm trying to get at is, Support has been made absolutely redundant, it's a high risk high reward stat that no longer works that way, the formula needs tweaking, I feel deflects should get back to support and Support needs more Pro's.


TL;DR

Support needs buffing, not as useful as other stats, doesn't have the impact it's supposed to, needs to have deflects back on it, possible health scaling again?

What are your opinions?


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AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 1
10/12/2013 10:16:25   
Mother1
Member

@ Khannbal

Giving support back deflections would be a horrible idea with the way the game is current. One of the current builds that is in trend right now is strength support mages, as well as support merc. Very powerful offensive builds however they have a gapping whole in their defenses with low chance of defensive abilities. While support merc's aren't as big an issue with most strength support mages are. Support give them a super strong debuff that takes away almost all of your resistance, while giving them a super powerful aux attack, and their strength works with their strikes and gun. However the risk of this build is that they have a high chance to be delfected and blocked.

Last thing this build needs is a buff that would take away one of their weaknesses (Deflects moving to support) Doing this would cause this build even harder to beat, and the masses would jump on it even more. Already as it is now, if you don't have luck on your side this build is near impossible do defeat especially if you are on the same level as said build. The only thing most can beat this build with is when blocks and deflections occur to cut their damage in half. Your suggestion will make this happen less due to them having more support then their opponents, and make players who would normally not deflect against them deflect more giving them added luck which if you haven't noticed is running rampant.

As for field medic, until they make the scaling super slow no just no. not a good idea with the current balance either. Strength blood mage use high level field medic which would be a buff to this overused build.

Overall these suggestion I don't support with the current balance since it will only serve a buff to these overused builds and could actually serve to make them overpowered.
Epic  Post #: 2
10/12/2013 11:32:59   
nico0las
Member

Support lost all the perks it had. I'm sure if we returned Field Medic improving with support, we'd see a considerable increase in the amount of Support builds.
Aside from this option, I can't really think of anything that could possibly improve support.


@Below then please explain why after nerfing Field Medic, most players completely abandoned Support builds until recently (and the only reason the current support builds work is because of the strength we pack with it),

< Message edited by nico0las -- 10/12/2013 11:52:32 >
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 3
10/12/2013 11:44:04   
Mother1
Member

@ Nico0las

Support from what I am hearing was vastly overpowered.

as it was before it did the following

increased your chance to go first
helps with rage gain
increased aux damage
Strengthens all debuffs and buffs other than blood shield, technician and smokescreen
Improved field medic
Increased deflection rate for yourself and reduced it for your opponents
increased crit chance
reduces chances of getting stunned

As it is now it does the following

helps with rage gain
Increases your chance to go first
Increase aux damage
Strengthens all buffs and debuffs other than bloodshield, smoke, and technician
increase's crit chance
reduces chances to get stunned.

So in reality the only things support lost was

increasing field medic and the ability to control deflections which isn't really much. Support still does a lot more than any of the other stats in the game.
Epic  Post #: 4
10/12/2013 14:01:30   
Stabilis
Member

quote:

Personally, I don't think taking Deflects from support and giving them to tech was ever a good idea, and now more prominently than before that's painfully obvious.


Impersonally speaking, Support-fueled deflections only aid in raising damage, and this is not any sensible way to look at balance. This is because Support raises Auxiliary damage, meets the requirements of Deadly Aim, and with a Support-fueled deflection, now those weapons ALSO have boosted accuracy. So tell me how this was a reasonable assessment?
AQ Epic  Post #: 5
10/12/2013 14:16:28   
toopygoo
Member

agreed with mother1 on this.

support needs no buff whatsoever, in-fact i think i debuff on its effect on going first (by level separation) should be decreased a little, in the sense that it is capped as to how high of a % it can give to the higher level player(s) in a battle.

it controls so much things already that is ridiculous. it is a luck increasing stat as it is, and doesnt need to empower deflections.

AQW Epic  Post #: 6
10/12/2013 14:38:43   
ED Divine Darkness
Member

well, support is pretty much a dead stat have to agree. it may help with rage gain, reducing stun chance, and shields aswell as reducing chance to be stunned, it isnt that useful. before any1 starts argueing with me let me make myself clear:

it is a good stat, but it isnt useful in any class without the use of str or being used in a focus build.

two examples are tec mage and cyber hunter. they can use support well because of malf, but after their aux use they cant do anything!
that is why that build uses str. it relies on str. heck, the only reason they use support is because of malf. if you made it scale with str they would abandon support and go pure str. the thing about support is that you cant use it alone. you can abuse the other stats better(like str for an example) but even with hp it wont work. if anyone gets a good support build for tec mage or cyber hunter with an 80% or higher ratio i would love to see.

on bh and bm it wont work(even coupled with another stat) because they dont have any offensive moves scaling of support.

on merc and tactical merc it is ok but the problem is they dont have enough to do with support. i mean, merc is a good support class but easy to beat. for one reason. why would you want a passive armour in an offensive build? and tlm s that you only have one good support scaling move.

the point is, no build can be based off support anymore. it is either just a little addition to a build or a requirement( focus 5/ deadly aim/hybrid armour). builds can no longer be purely be based off support and do well.

support cant be used like str. with str you can make a build based off str and hp but it isnt like that for support.

Support is like pets in dragon fable. You can use it as an addition to your build, but your build cant be based off of it.

if anything was to be done to buff support, i would say make guns scale off both str and support, and make the support scale it 1 point quicker.

< Message edited by ED Divine Darkness -- 10/12/2013 14:40:07 >
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 7
10/12/2013 14:53:28   
Ranloth
Banned


 Support, as the name implies, is meant to be an all-round stat. You can make a build based on it but it may not be as effective.
AQ Epic  Post #: 8
10/12/2013 16:37:18   
Thylek Shran
Member

The only real problem I experience with high support is Artillery Strike because
its the only Multi that crits like mad then. Also Bunker Buster and high support
are an OPed combination but thats not really a problem of support.
There is not really another stat where Artillery Strike would fit but it could
be nerfed by adding a negative crit bonus.

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DF Epic  Post #: 9
10/12/2013 16:46:35   
Ranloth
Banned


 @above
That's also wrong. Bunker has 25% chance to Crit, and it's fixed. It's not improved with Support and your opponent's Support does not affect it either. It's flat 25% chance.
AQ Epic  Post #: 10
10/12/2013 19:18:59   
Thylek Shran
Member

I did not mention that the crit rate of BB does increase with support Trans.
Where you got the info from that BB has a fixed crit chance ?
Its the 25% crit rate and and a high overall crit rate with high support.
At its extreme it could be a critical BB, then critical multi, and then critical rage aux
(especially with the +4 critical hit core).

< Message edited by Thylek Shran -- 10/12/2013 19:20:39 >
DF Epic  Post #: 11
10/12/2013 19:24:59   
Ranloth
Banned


 Unlike normal skills, which have standard Crit rate (which is Support - enemy's support, etc.), Bunker/Cannon have their own Crit rate which is 25%. It overrides your own Crits rate and uses its own - which is fixed 25% to prevent abuse with high Support.
AQ Epic  Post #: 12
10/12/2013 20:25:38   
Thylek Shran
Member

This is an explanation but not the info source...
DF Epic  Post #: 13
10/13/2013 6:03:39   
wireclub1990
Banned

 

 Support does seem pretty weak at the minute I tend to annihilate these strength support tms even when they use azrael in the fight everyone's having so much trouble with the support mercs are even easier . the only build I really have asny big time trouble with are the strength BMs if they get the first turn unless I get lucky or they make a really bad move I'm dead no matter what I do if they have azrael I lose even with the first turn nothing I can do im a free win .
Post #: 14
10/13/2013 11:18:59   
toopygoo
Member

all this complaining about Strength BM's. i dont want to hear it guys. this is about support adn support only. BM's are just as easy as support, with the right build, and the choice to find a good counter build is up to you. i do okay with sterngth BM's although i lose most the time against the ones higher levels than me, i beat 36's cometimes too. i beat ones my level 50/50 which i take it means, im on Par. im not op. i just have a good tank build. period. BM's arent op.
AQW Epic  Post #: 15
10/13/2013 14:39:46   
Sensei Chan
Member

Supported. I want support changed because It's useless on my class (Tactical Mercenary) as none of the skills improve with it besides Multi and Field Commander which is generally useless compared to Blood Commander and Support doesn't do much the only reason I have support is because I want to have level 5 focus!
Epic  Post #: 16
10/13/2013 14:44:14   
Ranloth
Banned


 Yet Support has a lot of benefits for a Mercenary and Tech Mages (glass cannons). If the argument for buffing Support is "my class can't rely on it because of the skills" then that's not an issue with the stat, but the skill tree.
AQ Epic  Post #: 17
10/13/2013 18:48:14   
Caspyin
Member
 

 I'm a BM and I love the use of a decently high support in a 1v1 build.

It raises the effectiveness in all of the following:

1) Deflection shield (great against malf'ing TMs/CH).
2) Reflex boost (BH obviously).
3) Intimidate (BMs and anything else going STR crazy).

Plus I get a higher aux dmg and decreased chance for the miracle stuns.

Then, I also get to go first (Assuming my opponent is like you and doesn't believe in aux), meaning I can use any of the above mentioned buffs/debuffs before the enemy can do anything about it. Essentially, I can control the pace of the game, or increase my chances to do so at least.

Not to mention, if you have good support, you probably also have high def/tech (as its essential) which means you probably are going to have 45 str minimum as well allowing for a focus 5 bot. Granted this last note is entirely optional, but still important to include when mentioning the usefulness of support.

Those who think support isn't important are at a severe disadvantage and haven't yet learned how to use it properly, imo.

I <3 Support. If it got buffed it wouldn't be long before these threads were filled with "nerf support" posts.

-Caspyin

< Message edited by Caspyin -- 10/13/2013 18:49:30 >
Post #: 18
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