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Juggernaut Balance

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2/9/2014 18:08:42   
Samurai_ED
Member

Ok, i know i already made a post about juggernaut, but im getting really frustrated. A level 20 fights level 10-14 and if you do the math of the lowest levels they fight, 10+10=20, which equals the juggernauts level.

Now at level 40, you fight level 30-34, and 30+30=60..... As you can see, the level 20 can fight 2 players that equal their level, whereas the level 40 fights people adding up to 20 levels higher than them... I'm

suggesting that the levels that juggernauts fight go up by 1 every TWO levels the juggernaut levels up. For example, for a level 20 juggernaut, they fight levels 10-14, they should fight levels 11-15 at level 22, not

21, now i know this example wasn't good because level 20's are already too good at jugg, but i didn't know the levels that juggernauts fight at certain levels. I'm not saying that level 40's HAVE to fight levels 20-24,

because thats what this scale implies, but at least like 26-30 or something. I really am frustrated and i think juggernaut is a dying battle mode, lately the bottom of leaderboards have been 4-6. I put double lines to

make it easier to read. Your welcome :D

DF AQW Epic  Post #: 1
2/9/2014 18:23:31   
Ranloth
Banned


 The mode needs massive overhaul - a bit more difficult at lower level and a bit easier at higher level. I'm not talking about Delta ratios for Juggernaut, but something less frustrating and more manageable.

Ranges, imo, should be scaled, depending on your level. Say, 8 levels difference is less significant at lower level than it is at higher level - excluding personal experience of the game. It seriously needs a massive change, because ranges don't often work out across 40 levels - in the same way, what's balanced at lower level, may be imbalanced at higher level instead.

What could be done is being able to face players with a total level from =CEILING(Your Level * 1.33) to =CEILING(Your Level * 1.5).
So, as L40 player, you could face players with a total level of 54-60, or in simpler terms, players between Lvl 27 and 30, whose total level adds up to min. of 54 and max. of 60.
If we use L35 example, ranges would be 47-53, or in other words, players between Level 23 and 27, whose total level adds up to min. 46 and max. 52.
And one more, with L30 player, ranges would be 40-45, or simply put, players between Level 20 and 25, whose total level adds up to min. 40 and max. 45.

Furthermore, they could put emphasis on fairer matchups before going down the ranges, so it'd ensure it's still difficult but beatable. It's a rough idea, but the ranges look somewhat balanced and a bit more manageable.
AQ Epic  Post #: 2
2/9/2014 18:29:45   
Mother1
Member

The reason lower level have an easier time is because their opponents are not only under equipped most of the time (lack of gear, lack of good cores, etc) but are also inexperienced at the game most of the time. Most at that level don't have a clue on how to battle a juggernaut So it is like taking candy from a baby for most.

However for higher level players they have to deal with most of time better equipped opponents and more experienced one at that.

So if anything the min level for juggernauts should be increased from 20 to 30 this way the opponents will be better equipped and more experienced in the game to be able to fight a jug instead of how it is now where those low level jugs are basically picking on unequipped players.

As for higher levels having trouble with their opponents in jug, that is a good thing. Why? Because as it was said from the beginning JUGGERNAUT WAS NOT SUPPOSE TO BE EASY BUT A CHALLENGE TO WIN! Problem I see was Juggernaut mode was made entirely too easy from when it first came due to Enhancements and varium advantage in the beginning of the game. the opponents were underequipped and underpowered majority of the time, and back then the only real time the opponents stood any chance of winning was when they were either

1 Nearing the juggernaut cap (Meaning that they were at the last level for fighting jugs)
2 both were fully powered varium players going against one varium jug
3 2 varium players were going against a non varium jug

And if I remember correctly many players back then complained about getting 2 varium players even if they were varium.

Epic  Post #: 3
2/9/2014 18:46:20   
Samurai_ED
Member

I agree, juggernaut should be a hard battle mode but not where you lose more than you win, like 20-30%. This discourages players from trying different battle modes and only sticking to 1v1/2v2. Trust me, i have had experience at level 40, the only way i win, is if someone runs, or someone has a partner with no upgraded weapons/only primaries. You know a battle mode is broken when you rely on someone leaving ;).
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 4
2/9/2014 18:55:19   
Noobatron x3000
Member

quote:

The reason lower level have an easier time is because their opponents are not only under equipped most of the time (lack of gear, lack of good cores, etc) but are also inexperienced at the game most of the time. Most at that level don't have a clue on how to battle a juggernaut So it is like taking candy from a baby for most.


This is true lost a few fights to lower level juggers cause essentially on my lowb (level 23) I've been 1v1ing to all intents and purpose a level 31-33 jugger because my partner to all intents and purposes is hopeless a caster TM with no strength no support moderate at best dex and tech no battery back up or assimilate I honestly feel like there trolls nobody could be that "un skilled" to not know that's a recipe for disaster surely, completely useless..... and no idea what they're doing..

< Message edited by Noobatron x3000 -- 2/9/2014 18:58:16 >
Post #: 5
2/9/2014 19:02:55   
WheresTheMoney
Member

This is true juggernaut is ridiculously hard I just fought 2 level 31s and one had hybrid armor... The highest damage I did to him was 70.....with the hawk special!!
Post #: 6
2/9/2014 19:34:13   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 ^Hybrid armor as a skill individually is pretty OP IMO. It costs only moderate energy to use, lasts 4 turns, and with only like 5 skill points you can pretty much make everybody hit less than 100 on you. Perfect for juggs, but no other class gets such a nice skill. Also mercs need lots of energy to use their skills, and that's a pain in jugg because 2 people are constantly taking it away as soon as you get it.
Epic  Post #: 7
2/9/2014 19:45:11   
Noobatron x3000
Member

Hybrids only really good in certain situations...and lets face it mercs are hardly a op class. and hybrid is nothing compared to some of the other classes op skills.
Post #: 8
2/9/2014 19:53:22   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 ^The skill is OP. I never said the class is. And some focus build used hybrid on turn 1, and it cost him 190 energy or something. For 4 turns I hit 30-80, which seems like a good trade-off to me. You just gotta watch out cause hybrid can give fast rage to your opponent, but that's it.

Hybrid's also a good panic skill if you get hit by hatchling rush, and when used as being a jugg I don't doubt your gonna last a lot longer.
Epic  Post #: 9
2/9/2014 20:00:56   
Noobatron x3000
Member

That's actually a reason hybrid should stay the way it is . Its the only thing that can counter hatchling in 2v2 till they deal with hatchling hybrid should be left be.
Post #: 10
2/9/2014 20:11:50   
Mother1
Member

@ Noobatron

there is another counter to this core in the form of the armored roots core. It will be coming back in a few months, and while it doesn't last as long as hybrid armor, it can not only protect you from hatching rush, but also azreal's will.
Epic  Post #: 11
2/9/2014 20:55:19   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 ^Even in 2v2, armored roots provides very weak effects because it limits your moveset and barely lasts any turns. You also don't deal any damage on its cast and it costs energy to boot. Armored roots really, really needs an increased duration of 1-2 turns, and/or no limit on your moveset, and definitely a decreased energy cost if none at all. On a side note, Botanical Battlegear is trash too. Crits do squat these days, and growth serum doesn't last long enough to even reap the benefits of having 2 buffed-damage artillery strikes from it.
Epic  Post #: 12
2/10/2014 8:07:37   
ZamuraiED
Member

I saw this post and decided to test a juggernaut battle.

It took me 7 minutes to just find a battle as a level 40, I then came across a level 32/33.

Within just two hits they lowered me by 500hp, it is simply not possibly to win, I have even tried a tank build and it just isn't working either.

This is a definite thing that the 'mods' need to sort.

Like everyone else is saying it'd be better to have level 20-25 to make it actually fair for us to play jugg.

I tested it on my level 20 and i had two level 10's, I got into the battle within a minute and I won within a minute also, this shows the unfairness highly.
Epic  Post #: 13
2/10/2014 12:23:21   
Noobatron x3000
Member

Thing is if they mess with jug and make it to easy for the juggernaut they'll face the problem they faced when they had to change it. people just not 2v2ing when they hit the juggernaut wall or quiting.

the irk factor with most is the jug chooses to jug the challengers are forced into it.

I remember when I got to a certain level on my lowb and you simply could not get a 2v2 battle 85% of the time all you saw were level cap juggers, because they knew it was a almost guaranteed win for them.

I completely stopped playing all my lowbs until they changed it.... Wasn't going to be forced to either 1v1 or make some lower levels then me lifes a misery in a fight they never had a choice to enter.

< Message edited by Noobatron x3000 -- 2/10/2014 12:53:37 >
Post #: 14
2/10/2014 12:37:50   
Mother1
Member

@ ZamuraiED

yeah that was me saying that because as I mentioned before the only reason Juggernaut's in the past and lower level juggernaut win now is because their opponents are under equipped and/or inexperienced in fighting juggernauts.

Another problem I see with most suggestions for Juggernaut is that most are based off the old system where you could get a 90-98% win rate in the mode due to varium advantage and enhancements that non variums couldn't afford.

Now because of omega evening the playing field and the opponents are no longer sheep marching to the slaughter house juggernaut is now broken. IIRC when Juggernaut was originally made it was made for a more challenging and hard battle mode since the players asked for this, but the irony of this is now that they got what they wanted (Post Delta) they are upset due to it being too hard.

@ Noobatron

I think this may be one of the few times we are on the same page. if they did this than even more players would either quit or go play 1 vs 1 until they either pass the juggernaut wall, or to the point where they can actually fight back which will hurt the player base at that level even more.
Epic  Post #: 15
2/10/2014 12:43:45   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 I think it's partially because tanking stats were devalued so much that it's hard to jugg. Rather than investing for more defense at 2 per dex point, it would just be much better to invest into HP at 12.5 per point because it gives coverage for resistance as well. This isn't the case though in jugg, and the fact that HP has allowed people to still endure a lot of hits in 1v1 has led to the developers blindly ignoring the weak properties of dex and tech now.
Epic  Post #: 16
2/10/2014 13:03:23   
Noobatron x3000
Member

Yup you have to invest a lot in dex/tech before it becomes more valuable then hp .

48 hp - 4 stat points
12 def / res- 4 stat points- that's 4 hits before your at a advantage to the hp.

the more you invest in hp the more valuable hp becomes the same can not be said for def/res, more so with all the quick kill builds running around and hatchling rush , large defence - low hp.

This is my opinion though.
Post #: 17
2/10/2014 15:23:38   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 Also with the introduction of critical heal, increasing your max HP increases the range of which you can use field medic with critical heal activating.
Epic  Post #: 18
2/17/2014 15:06:30   
OverlordED
Member

Juggernaut is my personal favorite battle mode. I literally don't play as much as I did because of it being this unfair.

It takes a lot of time to find a Jugg battle, and what's the result? Oh yeah, losing in a matter of 5-6 turns and being called a "Noob" by people that don't even know its meaning.

I get that it wasn't supposed to be an easy battle mode from the first place, I agree and respect that, but it also shouldn't be THIS hard.

It's almost impossible for level 35-40 to have a win percentage in Juggernaut that is over 50% and maybe even 40% no matter what Class or type of build he uses
Post #: 19
2/17/2014 15:09:37   
lionblades
Member

^Yep that's true. Jugg is terrible atm. That's why to get on jugg leaderboards you only have to win like 7 battles. Its pretty sad really. And almost everyone playing jugg is low level. No one at level cap really plays jugg anymore.
AQW  Post #: 20
2/17/2014 15:21:56   
Mother1
Member

@ lionblades

even back in delta it was like this to tell you the truth. Most people didn't play juggernaut like that like they did the other battle modes back then.

Also the only reason lower level win so easily is because most of the time they are fighting against inexperience, and/or under equipped opponents who have no clue how to fight juggernaut players. those players are basically picking on weak players most of the time and that is how they get their wins.

The players most higher level face are players who can put up a fight against them and are prepared for juggernauts which is how it should be.

In delta and gamma it was the same way for most opponents who faced juggernauts due to varium advantage, enhancements and many of the opponents having out of date gear no gear or where just inexperienced.

Most juggernauts back than were complaining about the possibility of facing 2 varium powered players and saying how this should be impossible IIRC which meant most didn't won't to deal with opponents who were on equal ground with them. Sad but true and for higher levels this is the case majority of the time meaning their opponents can stand up for themselves and aren't the pushover they were back in delta.
Epic  Post #: 21
2/17/2014 16:04:33   
lionblades
Member

quote:

even back in delta it was like this to tell you the truth. Most people didn't play juggernaut like that like they did the other battle modes back then.

Yes, but quite a few players still played jugg a lot. Back then, there were way more players doing jugg and some people devoted themselves to mainly play jugg.

The only thing that was remotely similar was the players. Facing 2 fully equiped varium players was still challenging for a jugg in Delta. The only reason Delta juggers had a high win ratio was due to the players having no varium enhancements while they themselves did.

Now, juggers face players with extremely similar stats to theirs and near same stats. (Heck, a jugg opponent can be your partner in 2vs2 meaning they are viewed as equals--pretty unfair no?). This is no way fair for juggs when 2 players have way more combined stats than the jugg. And all those cores like hatchling and azrael dont help either.
Edit: Didn't read last part of statement oops lol. Same thing I wrote above middle ;p

< Message edited by lionblades -- 2/17/2014 16:09:43 >
AQW  Post #: 22
2/17/2014 16:15:56   
8x
Member

I wonder what would happen if devs took a different approach and changed the mode completely. Here is a quick idea, I haven't thought about it much and it would have to be properly tested.

What if juggernauts could fight players that are 5 levels within their level range, but they would be given seemingly ridiculous amount of extra health (maybe some extra energy too) dependent on the levels of the opponents? Juggernaut fights would not be what they used to be, they would last longer, but they would actually be Juggernaut/Boss fights.

Juggernaut mode was never really working/balanced properly. Lets face it, it was fun being an unbeatable juggernaut who would pound voiceless 2vs2 participants into the ground. But now that the tables have turned on the juggernauts with a voice, it seems like juggernaut mode is unbalanced.
Epic  Post #: 23
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