New Agility (and bring stats back to Delta Progressions)


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2/24/2014 11:05:47

edwardvulture
Member

Background: The old agility limited players to always invest on the highest point before the next penalty in def/res. Delta was a time with many effective, viable, builds that are impossible today largely due to stats.
Where it went wrong: When the developers removed agility and made HP and MP scale by 1. An attempted fix at this was adding HP and Energy with level ups. Still, it made strength/support builds OP, then they nerfed the stats in the form of even more diminishments. Then they nerfed def/res progression with tech/dex (while making black affect a max of 85% of damage and minimun of 30), then they nerfed str/sup again but this time, cirticals become nerfed due to the argument that this game should be less lock based. The only good thing to come out of this was the 10x update.

What is New Agility?
Well, it was said that high HP builds are OP, and today, they are. What will this New Agility do? It will allow builds to become more diverse and balance out high life being overpowered(In theory).Since the 10x update, this game got a fine tuner on balance.
Here is the idea of New Agility
+20 life= -0.1% chance to block/crit/deflect or -0.3 res/def
and +20 Energy= +0.05% chance to block/crit/deflect

If this idea gets put it:
Stats go back to Delta Progressions where diverse builds can come out again, except this time, more people will invest in energy and even more new builds will come out. (and also P2p and P2F will have not much of a distinction)

What I didn't put in consideration: Passives to Actives

< Message edited by edwardvulture -- 2/24/2014 11:06:43 >

Post #: 1

2/24/2014 12:24:26

Xendran
Member

This is broken.
Like i've said before, if you have to implement another system to fix a system that was meant to stand on its own, the first system is broken.

Also your logic is going backwards in regards to diversity.
Telling a player "We don't want you to do this" is not increasing build diversity, it ends up in every single player going 5 focus.
At least right now mages have three builds that work intsead of one, which would be the case if this got added.

Also energy is already an amazingly good stat, it deserves no buffs at all. Having 715 energy instead of 640 on a mage is amazingly useful.
Also, have you stopped to think about how this would impact classes other than mage? For example, Cyber Hunter?

This suggestion is clearly based on the 1600-1800hp mages that are running rampant, and likely the hp cybers, but have you actually tried making a low health cyber build that doesn't get wrecked in 2 seconds by one luck event?

< Message edited by Xendran -- 2/24/2014 12:26:57 >

Epic

Post #: 2

2/24/2014 13:24:54

Thylek Shran
Member

I think that your suggestions is pretty complicated and that it would make
comparing block/deflect/crit chances hard.

High HP are OPed for multiple reasons and do work at best for offensive builds with high Strenght.
Those builds benefit from the fact that they are able to defeat less offensive opponents
before their defenses will be effective and Infernal Android can be used effectively
which is before turn 7. Also high HP builds benefit from a high Field Medic and can
handle critical hits and poison effects way better than low HP tank builds.

So the real problem is Strenght and the Legendary primary weapon bonus of 0.3
per point which is way to much. The damage bonus for swords is also problematic.
I would only nerf HPs by reducing the stat point multiplicator from 12.5 to 12 or 11.
Then I would nerf Strenght and reduce the Legendary bonus to 0.2 per point beause
of the fact that Strike can be used every turn and does not require much tactic in
combination with high Strenght.

Personally I don´t see the point why the old Agility system has been removed
because it had worked well. Maybe it did so only for high level players.

Epic

Post #: 3

2/24/2014 13:36:07

Xendran
Member

quote:

Personally I don´t see the point why the old Agility system has been removed

because:

quote:

if you have to implement another system to fix a system that was meant to stand on its own, the first system is broken.

Epic

Post #: 4

2/24/2014 15:34:32

edwardvulture
Member

Its a complete re-build. Its no worse than diminishments on stats.

Post #: 5

2/24/2014 15:36:05

Mother1
Member

Not supported.

How about instead of using a broken solution to fix a broken problem how about instead fixing the original broken problem?

Epic

Post #: 6

2/24/2014 15:38:24

Xendran
Member

It's so much worse than diminishing stats.
Removing other things to fix a stat is not the same as slowing down the scaling of the stat.

Epic

Post #: 7

2/24/2014 15:42:57

edwardvulture
Member

Disregarding old agility, is it balanced?

Post #: 8

2/24/2014 16:06:50

Xendran
Member

Something being balanced or imbalanced is not a reason to bring in broken mechanics. It's a reason to fix the initial mechanic.

Epic

Post #: 9

2/24/2014 18:21:49

edwardvulture
Member

how is what I'm suggesting "broken"?

Post #: 10

2/24/2014 18:24:26

Ranloth
Banned

It's not broken. But you're suggesting something to cover for the broken mechanics - instead of just fixing it, and not bothering with Agility. You still end up with one thing being broken, and the other (your suggestion) covering for it.

Epic

Post #: 11

2/24/2014 18:47:36

edwardvulture
Member

What is the broken mechanic you all are talking about?

@Xendran's 1st comment: how is stat diminishments not saying we don't want you to spend too much in 1 stat?

< Message edited by edwardvulture -- 2/24/2014 19:00:11 >

Post #: 12

2/24/2014 18:58:36

Ranloth
Banned

The same broken mechanic you're trying to cover, through Agility - stat progression.

You're claiming high HP builds are overpowered, so why not fix the stat progression? Instead, you're going through roundabout methods, which does fix the problem but temporarily. The issue still persists, because this New Agility may break with certain balance changes.

Epic

Post #: 13

2/24/2014 19:02:58

edwardvulture
Member

I don't feel like I want to see HP/MP diminishments any time soon... It just feels like that will take a huge chunk out of diversity. I have to say the original problem was HP going up by only 1 with each investment. I thought stats(the 4) were somewhat balanced by Delta.

Post #: 14

2/24/2014 19:14:48

Ranloth
Banned

There's no need to nerf HP again. In fact, it can use a buff, as long as you fix the other four stats - buff offense and you're nerfing HP, and vice versa. Buff defense and you're nerfing HP. And so on.

I don't mean to just change HP/EP. I mean a complete overhaul of the stat progression. No diminishing returns, no overpowered ranges, no flawed scaling.

Epic

Post #: 15

2/24/2014 19:23:46

Xendran
Member

quote:

@Xendran's 1st comment: how is stat diminishments not saying we don't want you to spend too much in 1 stat?

When done properly it isn't. Diminishing returns is MEANT to counteract the situation where you gain an increased percentage of benefit from the stat getting pushed higher.
Perfect example of this is block. The difference between 80% block and 85% block is 25% of damage overall negated by the extra 5%, but the difference between 20% block and 25% block is 6.25% of overall damage negated.

Same amount of block was added, 5%, but as things like that get higher their effectiveness scales upwards.
Flat def/res is also similar.

Incoming hit: 500
Resist: 100 vs 150 (50 difference)
Result: 400 damage taken vs 350 damage taken. Difference of 12.5%.

Incoming hit: 500
Resist: 300 vs 350 (50 difference)
Result: 200 damage taken vs 150 damage taken. Difference of 25%.

Same amount of resist was added, but as resist gets higher it also scales more effectively. Every time you put a point into it, it's more effective than the point before it. You have to diminish the effect as it gets higher to bring it back down to an equal amount of benefit per point.
When nothing diminishes, it becomes useless to bring low stats to a medium range, as you will get more benefit from bringing high stats to an even higher range. This is how stat abuse builds are born.
This is why diminishing returns exist. This is also why flat def/res numbers are really bad for the game.

This is also why rage was introduced: a mechanic to reduce the overall def/res gain of those points by piercing it more frequently the higher it gets, rather than diminishing the actual returns.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 2/24/2014 22:34:25 >

Epic

Post #: 16

2/24/2014 21:05:48

Thylek Shran
Member

quote:

buff offense and you're nerfing HP, and vice versa. Buff defense and you're nerfing HP.

The counterpart of alot offensive factors are Defense, Resistance and Field Medic and not only HP.
Poison effects are offensive too but mostly get countered by HP and Field Medic as they ignore def/res
beside the initial 85% primary weapon damage.

Buffing Strenght does nerf Defense and Resistance while HP become more important which is like a HP buff.
This is another reason why high Strenght and high HP are a powerfull combination.
Buffing Defense does nerf all physical attacks and not HPs.

Another mechanic that has not been named yet but does make offensive factors even more powerfull than
defensive factors is Rage. I think that Rage should get revamped as it benefits offensive builds with
high HPs and low def/res way to much.

< Message edited by Thylek Shran -- 2/24/2014 21:07:49 >

Epic

Post #: 17

2/24/2014 21:44:23

edwardvulture
Member

Xendran : "Telling a player "We don't want you to do this" is not increasing build diversity, it ends up in every single player going 5 focus.
At least right now mages have three builds that work intsead of one, which would be the case if this got added."

How would this suggestion decrease build diversity? The way I see it is like making advantages/disadvantages to high/low health/energy

New agility is meant to give advantages/disadvantages to high life and low life as compared to High dex= good and low dex= bad. It could potentially add a new dimension to the game.

< Message edited by edwardvulture -- 2/24/2014 21:55:30 >

Post #: 18

2/24/2014 22:15:34

Mother1
Member

@ Edwardvulture

your idea is based off of a bad band aid fix that even the staff said themselves was a bad fix in the past. Plus adding this doesn't fix the original problem. if you fix the original problem than balance will come. If you put a band aid fix on the problem you are doing nothing more but putting a band aid on a gaping wound that penalizes other builds, reduces variety, and to top it off you still haven't fixed the original problem.

Epic	Post #: 19

2/24/2014 22:36:43

edwardvulture
Member

How is this a band-aid fix, it doesn't directly encourage or discourage builds.

Post #: 20

2/24/2014 22:48:51

Xendran
Member

Yes it does, it directly discourages health builds.
Scaling a stat so that it gives the same per-point benefit is not the same as going "we will take from your OTHER stats if you push this too high because we don't want you to push it this high".
Diminishing returns done properly still lets you go as high as you want without discouraging it or using arbitrary reductions, it just makes it so its not overpowered.

Epic

Post #: 21

2/24/2014 23:18:43

edwardvulture
Member

Can we stop talking about the "mechanics" and actually look at the impact of this on balance.

Post #: 22

2/26/2014 0:12:01

edwardvulture
Member

@mother: the only reason the staff eventually though agility was a bad idea was because it limited builds to have certain number of HP. It could be fine tuned now and do what the devs originally intended.
@Xendran: The incentives to invest in life such as not dying is way bigger than these tiny drawbacks with each investment.

Post #: 23

2/26/2014 3:05:30

Xendran
Member

"The drawbacks are not that big" still doesn't give any logical reasoning for the arbitrary reduction of other stats.

quote:

Can we stop talking about the "mechanics" and actually look at the impact of this on balance.

This statement contradicts itself.

Epic

Post #: 24

2/26/2014 3:27:46

edwardvulture
Member

Life is a contradiction. The logical aspect (relating to real life) is that the more health/hit points you have, the less able you are to guard it and the less you can do with it.

Post #: 25

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