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Player suggestions - the worst suggestions?

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7/5/2014 5:07:17   
Ranloth
Banned


 Not so long time ago, many hardcore players have complained how level cap hasn't been raised in a while - prior to level 40. Staff decided to please them and made a drastic increase, from 36 to 40. Wasn't accepted so well by those who wanted balance matches, since they'd get paired up poorly again due to the level discrepancy.
Around the same time, Titan and NightWraith were in-game, talking to some players after a release, and they've asked what players would like to see (perhaps returned?) in ED, and many players have actually said "enhancements", which we know falls under the heavy P2W concept.

The Legendary Mode. It kills two birds with one stone. Incentive to keep playing for sake of the highest Rank, and being rewarded for that effort in form of Legendary Points - which are basically cheaper enhancements that reward effort, not your wallet's content. Was this really a good idea, to mix the two, or release it at all? Balance wise, it was just awful. Gameplay wise? It's an incentive to level up, but at what cost?


Delta has also had some decent balance changes. Anyone still remembers the TLMs with Smoke, Maul and pre-nerf Frenzy? Due to these player complaints, and very little feedback on what and how to change things around, the class ended up being nerfed badly. Complaints have arisen that it was done purposely by the Devs to "cheat" players off their money, by releasing overpowered classes, and then nerfing them. So, the people who listened to the players (Devs), ended up being blamed for cheating them. That doesn't sound logical, does it? First they complain about not being listened to, and then, once they do, it's even worse!

Omega has fine balance examples too. Few recent topics cover Support (stat) and how it's now terrible. Anyone remember the initial release of Omega, and the Strength/Support - or mix of both - builds? Yeah, players also demanded nerfs and now they want to buff Support again. We're now going in circles to undo something that players wanted in the first place. Was it a wise idea to complain in the first place, without any specific suggestions?


There are a few more examples, but you should get the point now. Even with players not being abusive towards the Devs, is there a point in listening to the community, on a major scale? It seems like they want to listen, and once they do, they get blamed for it. Yes, there is the case of balancing things out properly, but they wouldn't be in such a mess if players were a bit more specific about various nerfs and buffs, or found different solutions that wouldn't cause (even bigger) imbalance. This applies to balance and gameplay suggestion alike.
Something that players wanted since Beta, and has happened in Omega, is now causing the game to end with even bigger imbalance - listening to players that is. Of course I'm not blaming players for Omega now, and saying Devs have done a fantastic job on the phase, and how the loss of players is totally not Omega's fault, but some changes DO cause some players to leave, whether it's temporarily or permanently, and these changes are suggested by the players too...

Also relevant, a friend of mine has pointed out on Twitter how wanting things to change won't happen by saying "Your game is a piece of crap, fix it!", because you're [1] being disrespectful, [2] totally motivating the Devs to change something*, and [3] not even specifying HOW something should/needs to be fixed and expect them (Devs) to do it your way. I usually laugh at such complaints, because that's the reason why minority is listened to (constructive part) and not the majority, who will abuse the Devs via social media and expect them to fix something without saying what, how and why it needs to be fixed - which is quite contradictory too.

* Just imagine you've been working on a school project for a long time, and your teacher comes in saying it's terrible, degrades you in front of other students, and expects you to fix it. Totally motivated to improve now, eh? And what to improve too. >.>

I should probably clarify. Not all player suggestions are bad suggestions, but most often, they do more harm than good. But the title works quite well, by grabbing people's attention. ;)

< Message edited by Trans -- 7/5/2014 12:21:46 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 1
7/5/2014 8:48:15   
Melissa4Bella
AmeSylph


 I'm just going to remind everyone here that the purpose of a discussion forum is to constructively interact with other people that addresses the topic, not directly attacking others for their opinions. If baiting, taunting and being downright rude in order to create drama or upset other players is your objective, then your posts are not welcome here.

This thread has the potential to open up discussions with others that will be meaningful and helpful. It is up to you, the player, to decide if you want to join-in that process or to avoid it.
AQ DF  Post #: 2
7/5/2014 9:29:19   
comicalbike
Member

well you are right all the nerfs made lots leave ,these foriums are to strict for me as i am not a yes man and i have never read there rules so it better that i dont say much, yes we do need lots changes but as its artix game now it up to them and the players have no say anyway, the only thing that upsets me with this game and always have that i buy things because they are worth it and then they are nefed so it was a waist of money that i spent that is all i have to say,. or my post will be deleted.the best thing i always liked in this game was fast play and good fun wich was taken away,what i would like, these are just me.fast play ,more fun, less lagg,the things i buy not nerfed, and as we have a low player base ,random npcs joining in for 1/1 2/2 and jugg till player base comes up


< Message edited by comicalbike -- 7/5/2014 10:19:27 >
Epic  Post #: 3
7/5/2014 12:16:55   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


 I don't know if I would agree that player suggestions are the worst as you title states but I will agree that player balance suggestions tend to be very short sighted and turn out pretty awful in the long run. In the past you and I have talked, and when I say talked I mean you ranted and I went yeah makes sense, about how the balance section should be posts made by the balance team and the developers saying, "This is what we are planning to do what do you think?"

Rabblefroth did this in the past with the robot topic and I think it worked fairly well. On the other hand that means the balance team would have to be constantly hoping onto the forums going, "What about X, Y, and Z?" And then they would have to defend their thought and acknowledge other good ideas.

All in all I think you are right and most if not all of the time when players jump into balance things don't always turn out for the best.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 4
7/5/2014 13:35:31   
Noobatron x3000
Member

I think people learnt to deal with a lot of the problems with this game I mean a lot of its been here since beta , I think the main killer was making the end game a lot worse balance wise then it already was, I mean now potentially a level 38 can face some1 far above level 43 in 1v1 as bad as 50+ and its even worse in 2v2 , I mean really? Titan always made a big deal about this games main focus being pvp yet your forced to npc after a certain level. You literally npc or throw yourself under the bus in fight after fight you cant win.

Post #: 5
7/5/2014 17:46:20   
Mother1
Member

@ Noobatron 3000

IIRC that happened because some people started complaining about how the legendary ranks made it so certain players had no chance against level 40's (which is actually true) so they cut the player range by 60% in 1 vs 1 and 33% in 2 vs 2. I also remember they didn't go any further because they knew completely killing the range would make wait times even worse than they are now.

As for the NPC thing yeah that is what most of the level 40's say everyone should do in a nutshell because they will lose it if they remove the legendary ranks like they did enhancements as well as with NPC giving exp there is no excuse for not being able to keep up.

As for the topic itself

Yeah I have to agree to some extent because a lot of suggestions for balance made were mostly by people who wanted popular builds that just so happened to be their bane builds nerfed so they could go on winning like before not realizing that something else would replace them. Also since the staff would put in so many player suggestion for balance in sadly in a sense the players are responsible for a lot of the bad balance.

Epic  Post #: 6
7/5/2014 21:54:07   
lionblades
Member

I don't think it's the player suggestions that were bad. Rather it was the poor implementation on the Dev's part. I don't think anyone can agree that enhancements=legendary ranks. Anyone could use enhancements (as in varium players since Delta was the prime enhancement era, P2W), and it was never catered to a high level range but for all level ranges. On the other hand, Legendary Ranks widened the level gap immensely, and players could do nothing about it-only thing was to constantly play (end of casual players) or NPC until they are bored to death. A enhanced player vs enhanced player was fairer imo since the level gap was still just around 5 at max. Now a Rank 1 player vs Rank 60 player is way different. I could go on, but I think you guys can get my point on Legendary ranks.

I'm not saying all Dev implementation was a fail like Legendary Ranks. I loved the block mechanic change doing a minimum of 30 damage since I didn't have to worry about 30 dmg block wins. But some good updates are just stacked upon bad ones. For, example players suggested a energy cost to cores which I thought was implemented well. Energy was still not a problem. Then comes the Passive to Active update implemented poorly...the core energy costs+passive active energy costs made energy extremely needed. This led to a whole other bunch of problems, albeit some fixed, but many which have not. For example in Jugg opponents can take 500+ energy in one turn now that all classes can take energy etc.
AQW  Post #: 7
7/6/2014 0:17:51   
Yo son
Member

Before ED merged with AE, the forums were much different. It wasn't a rant type of forum like this one was(before it died). Players didn't go on the forum to complain about how oped a build was, or how broken a skill is. Build were hard to copy because weapons were unique; it was not a pay to win game even though varium existed, and every build had a counter.


Then we merged with AE, went from beta to (what ever stage) and every thing changed. People raged constantly raged on the forums about how OP'ed a class is, the devs constantly failed to balance anything because any thing the tried made something else Over powered.

You can't really blame the players because the devs never did anything the were asked, any skill the touch was nerfed to a point where it was unusable, and anything the buffed became god like. Also the constantly did things that made no sense whatsoever, 5+ focus, TLM, enhancements, Azreal gun and bazuka core( biggest why moment for me - bigger than omega for me). And when the final did something right, for example making cores require energy, they then nerfed the crap out of ep.

Yes, we made the problem worst by complaining on the forums, but that happens when the game was so broken that people kept changing class every 2 weeks.

The biggest mistake the devs made, was never allowing "real players" to beta test their balance changes + any release that affects the game play i.e new cores. Any player that cared about this game would have told the devs that TLM was broken, Azreal gun/bazuka was extremely broken, and legendary ranks doesn't make any sense since the majority of your player base are not hardcore players/ the battle scaling system would be more messed up.


Instead of releasing new updates, the devs should spend some time trying to fix the basic problems with this game, i.e (36+37) vs (high rank lvl 40s?), 10k cores get replaced and removed when someone wants to change core? seriously why is that. Is so hard to make credits in this game, but so easy to waste it. Also I need to spend 13k+ on weapons that I won on the arcade just to get it to my level!!!!!!!!!

< Message edited by Yo son -- 7/6/2014 0:26:31 >
Post #: 8
7/6/2014 1:43:22   
kaiseryeux21
Member

the dev's made mistake by listening to wrong people. I myself made a few suggestions on this forums but never did i tried to suggest when it comes to "BALANCE" because i believe that topic is subjective and players will suggest on their personal experience rather than the problem in general. In my opinion, BALANCE related concerns should be handled only by the dev's and players who have great ideas when it comes to balancing the game. I can name a few players like XENDRAN, TRANS, MOTHER and EXPLODING PENGUIN who have really nice ideas in this kind of stuff. The problem is, there are so many other players on this forums who pretended to be expert and saying this, and that, and etc which instead of helping, they just make this game worst.

My point is simple, i am now 30 years old with a doctorate degree and i consider myself being more knowledgeable than most of the younger players in ED. But i know for a fact that suggesting anything in BALANCE isn't my forte so i just decided to let other players handle the suggestions. I still believe this game can recover from its recent decline and broken balance through the help of devs, balance testers, mods and some players i mentioned above.
DF Epic  Post #: 9
7/6/2014 2:04:20   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 Unfortunately people like Xendran essentially suggest remaking the entire EpicDuel battle system from the ground up. Judging from the pace of EpicDuel's updates, something like that would take at least 2-3 years.

Many others present patchwork solutions that are thinly-disguised rants against builds they couldn't defeat.

This community has a poor track record of producing viable suggestions, and the suggestion forum is best used as a gauge of player sentiment to see what some possible problems are, rather than seeking solutions for those problems. That being said, there have been good player suggestions like the Plasma Grenade change, so player input should not be discounted. However cases like that are exceedingly rare - the problem identified then was straightforward and more of an oversight than an actual balance issue. I personally believe that players have the bad habit of demanding dev intervention instead of bothering to change their builds, which is the root of all sorts of ludicrous suggestions and complaints.

I've been hearing things like 'TM OP' and 'STR OP' and 'Overload OP' and 'MoB OP' and 'Intimidate OP' and '[Insert new bot here] OP', which are not legitimate balance concerns. I mean, look at the post below - 'bots in general are OP'?

IMO the only balance issue at the moment is Legendary Ranks, which I think should be thoroughly relooked.




< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 7/6/2014 2:08:14 >
Post #: 10
7/6/2014 2:06:35   
ambien
Member

if you want to help this broken game one thing that has to be done plz listen stop the insane bot damage, to win a game when a bot can do up to 600 pts of damage lets get real deves,

like comcialbiker said they will not fix it, l wonder why because they have read enough posts on game problems until the cows come home, what does it take for the deves to sit down and to really look at the game, broken, broken, to me like the 1st 3 wars you gotta laugh you just gotta, there in lies the point. if they cannot fix the war how can they ever fix ed.

( Before ED merged with AE, the forums were much different. It wasn't a rant type of forum like this one was(before it died). Players didn't go on the forum to complain about how oped a build was, or how broken a skill is. Build were hard to copy because weapons were unique; it was not a pay to win game even though varium existed, and every build had a counter.)
great part you said here Yo son very nice l remb those days.

well we will see they 575 hours to fix, bend, tear down ed and rebuild it. the 575 hours could have been shut down the site and fix it, but they run the game not us PLAYERS

any way my thoughts on this

always the syfy
Post #: 11
7/6/2014 2:29:18   
suboto
Member

Fixing jug mode should be the 1st thing on the games plate for battle. Not to make it easy like it use to be or impossible like it is now but more reasonable
30-34 current scale 30-31 easy 32 challenge 33 and 34 impossible to beat as a lvl40 legend
my suggestion
rank 1-40 vs 30-32
rank 41-60 vs 30-33
or all legends vs 30-32 or 30-33
33 is impossible to beat as a low rank legend i know that for fact but would be more balanced in in mid to late ranks
32 is the challenge part that has a 50% chance to win for a low rank 40
34 beyond impossible for a low rank legend
the energy drain skills and bunker/cannon are the reasons why this mode is also dead not just 34 and 33. Either nerf those skills or change battle scaleing
Epic  Post #: 12
7/6/2014 2:33:03   
Noobatron x3000
Member

Anyone who claims this game wasn't p2w before omega I can only assume didn't play before omega (I've been here since beta before artix my first toon was a elite with the founder armour back when there were only to weps and it was heal loop tm or strength bh or go home) Heh not much has changed really str hp , with dex( dex not so important for a ch ) or dex caster or go home now . Game hasn't really changed since beta on how badly balanced it is.

In fairness the game still is p2w just no where near as bad as it was, Its about the only good thing you can say about omega . Everything else is bad but the p2w aspect got better (Its still pay to win , But unlike previous phases someone who hasn't paid isn't a guaranteed win )

I say its still p2w because people who have the varium only gear that can only be purchased with var or the good gear with a insane credit price and a extremely OP core still has a massive advantage over anyone who cant get said gear

< Message edited by Noobatron x3000 -- 7/6/2014 2:34:42 >
Post #: 13
7/6/2014 2:38:42   
Dual Thrusters
Member

@kai

The Devs don't and can't differentiate players. One would not know if a player truly understood the ultimate effect of his suggestion, because there is no evidence for that. Instead, if a post sounds convincing enough, it will be implemented. It's not like they can rank each individual user depending if their suggestion made the game closer to balance or not after it was implemented :P

MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 14
7/6/2014 3:07:00   
comicalbike
Member

well as the game is broken at the moment, the reason i say they is you need players for 2/2 and jugg and the low player base means you cant get fights or have to wait long times,we need something to attract players to the game ,i like fast and fun games which this is not, so unless they bring things the players like we will have lots problems all the time. we can put up with some problems in the game but we need a reason to play, in beta we had all that

< Message edited by comicalbike -- 7/6/2014 3:08:09 >
Epic  Post #: 15
7/6/2014 4:33:36   
kosmo
Member
 

 All suggestion pass from staff, it s not like your suggestion gets implemented because of you asking for it, staff always takes the final decision so blaming players is quite pathetic.
Epic  Post #: 16
7/6/2014 5:05:12   
Ranloth
Banned


 "blaming players is quite pathetic"
This little quote.

What if you the majority pressurised them to make the said change? Balance example of that will be TLMs actually, because our balance suggestions were rarely even considered until late Delta, when the changes were made a lot faster. So, regardless of the fact it's the Devs having the final say, doesn't pressurising also make them do something they shouldn't have? Refer to the Legendary Mode bit, in the first post, which is a fine example of that.

Also, what if the way in which feedback was gathered for balance was to change? We have quite a fair amount of Testers, and there will be Balancers soon enough, once the tool is completed. The Balancers will be also picked from active players who have shun in the past with their suggestions, as well as helping out with feedback and such.
What I mean is - what if Balancers and Testers were to call the shots, and the feedback would only be asked for? An example of that is the Bot Changes Thread, by Rabble.
Would this be able to improve balance - in the long run - by asking for feedback when necessary, and not have an entire section full of complaints, with little to no data provided to back up their claims for a specific change? Of course, there would be steps taken to improve the communication of Balancers with the community*, when needed, so it wouldn't be all for removing the community's say entirely on the subject of balance.

Would this be able to stop some bad balance changes from being made? The said Balancers would be members of the community who are open to different views, and not partial about things, just for sake of buffing their own class.

* Such as taking advantage of social media for feedback, linking the said thread in-game, etc.


Edited, to simplify some stuff/remove unnecessary bits/fix typos.

< Message edited by Trans -- 7/6/2014 13:04:16 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 17
7/6/2014 12:37:58   
comicalbike
Member

Trans your right its no ones fault really just the change to omega done it
Epic  Post #: 18
7/7/2014 2:20:23   
Pemberton
Member
 

 It is up to the stuff if they use suggestion of players. If you blame player for bad suggestion, devs is even badder for using that bad suggestion.
No offense but no one is more fault but Titan and Nightrath. They do all this omega and anger barium players.
Post #: 19
7/9/2014 5:57:12   
Frost Moglin
Member

@Pemberton: One could word some suggestion that would be horrible for game balance so, that it actually seems useful. Also, isn't it most of the time annoying when a game is P2W?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 20
7/9/2014 22:48:41   
Dual Thrusters
Member

quote:

They do all this omega and anger barium players.


This made me chuckle
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 21
7/16/2014 15:12:35   
Ranloth
Banned


 I have mentioned players pressurizing the Devs to make unnecessary changes. Earlier today, Dual Thrusters/Jacobfarrow1 hav posted about how the Meteor Shower cores and their rare counterparts, now deal flat 100% damage - whilst the Charge cores (Titan's charge cores) retain their original values.

There hasn't been anyone complaining about how these cores should be nerfed, but many complaints have been about Strength and how it's bad. Since these cores did rely on Strength, they have taken a hit. An unnecessary change that wasn't suggested, but complaints about Strength. The two link together, but was it really a good idea to complain about the stat without actual solution - apart from nerfing the stat progression, which is already bad enough (and it wouldn't really help either)?

This is the reason why I've created this thread in the first place, and even added the balance part few posts ago, about how feedback is gathered and whether player changes are really good, or even worth implementing - in the long run, that is. Some are good, that can't be denied, but as soon as it falls into balance area (i.e. Legendary Mode being gameplay + balance), it turns into a mess.

https://twitter.com/Mecha_MarioAK/status/489495320951529472

< Message edited by Trans -- 7/16/2014 15:54:04 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 22
7/16/2014 15:24:35   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 ^

I don't see how the player base is at fault for the foolish and unnecessary change to the Meteor cores and its affiliates. That change speaks volumes about how detached the devs are from the actual game and their tendency to seek flimsy bandaid solutions to clearly structural issues. This is entirely the devs' fault - you can't condemn player suggestions on one hand and condemn players for not making suggestions on the other. That's just biased. The players are not responsible for finding solutions to problems.
Post #: 23
7/16/2014 15:36:09   
Jacobfarrow1
Member

Hmm... This seems like a good discussion. I'll be checking frequently to see what pops up.

Oh, and Trans, it was I who was talking about the Meteor cores specifically. Dual Thrusters talked about the rare counterparts. Just thought I'd clear that up.
AQW Epic  Post #: 24
7/16/2014 15:37:39   
Ranloth
Banned


 That's why I did mention pressurizing, which results in poor changes being made - such as overnerfing TLMs in Delta, overshooting the Assimilation buff, and this works too. For the same reason, I have mentioned the bit about gathering feedback, and how it could be done instead - not just outright blaming one party for the changes.

After all, players "hate" waiting for balance changes and expect them weekly, therefore, they should enjoy the bad changes being made by now, instead of just giving more time for actual changes - and now we're going back to pressurizing again, where one side complains and the other "listens" and makes unnecessary changes without any solid reason nor really knowing whether it'll aid the balance or not. (and again, this links back to how feedback is gathered part, few posts ago)

https://twitter.com/Mecha_MarioAK/status/489495320951529472

< Message edited by Trans -- 7/16/2014 15:48:11 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 25
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