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Possible solution for the problem with 2vs2 runners

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10/17/2014 3:49:08   
Thylek Shran
Member

Players that enter a 2vs2 duel should automatically be
taxed with 100 xp and 50 credits at the start of battle.
When they stay until the end of the battle they will get
this tax back additionally to the win/loss rewards.

Runners will have to think twice before they run then as
they wont get the tax back when they refresh or close
the browser window. Also players with a bad connection
and slow laptops or mobiles will more likely stay away
from 2vs2 then as their risk to disconnet and pay the tax
is high then.
DF Epic  Post #: 1
10/17/2014 5:10:40   
Mother1
Member

You can also get disconnected due to no fault of your own AKA the server itself.

We have seen it happen in the past and I myself have experienced being kicked by the server itself many times when I am one turn from winning a fight. Image my surprise when I come back to find out that I lost EXP, Credits, and got a loss because of something that wasn't my fault but the systems.

While there are other reasons why I can't support this idea, the one I mention is more than enough for me not to support this idea.
Epic  Post #: 2
10/17/2014 5:14:47   
Remorse
Member

I like the idea,

The tax is small enough so that losing it due to disconnecting etc. is not that bid of a deal.

But if it was a frequent thing such as you purposely dodge over and over then it would be a very useful system.

If you DC a lot then, I still think this system is fair because just because you DC a lot does not mean it's fair that you continually play despite knowing this and giving others loses.


Supported.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 10/17/2014 5:15:01 >
Epic  Post #: 3
10/17/2014 6:29:08   
Mother1
Member

@ remorse

What about real low level players especially players within the levels 1-20 levels. 100 EXP is a real big deal for those players seeing as the gaps between the levels is much smaller. In level 1-5 you could lose possibly 2 levels worth of exp depending on how much EXP you have.

So disconnects especially from the server end would hurt these players big time.
Epic  Post #: 4
10/17/2014 6:40:05   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 I don't see a problem with the concept. The numbers could be tweaked to be equivalent to the value of winning a 1v1 fight of your level or below. Players who run already forgo that amount by not collecting their loss compensation, which provides 14 exp.

< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 10/17/2014 6:41:03 >
Post #: 5
10/17/2014 15:34:12   
Thylek Shran
Member

To prevent overall negative credits and experience there has to be
added a mechanism so that characters cannot loose levels or have
less than zero credits. There still is the NPC option where especially
low level characters can compensate both.
To make it more simple the tax could be instead only an ammount
of experience but should be high enough to punish runners for an
reward ammount of about 10 minutes playing without running.
It would not make sense to run and ninja relogin then as some
players abuse this currently for the hope of weaker opponents
and better partners.

Disconnects should not be much of a problem as they happen rarely
on a healthy connection. For those with a bad connection its better
to keep them away from 2vs2 as nobody does need a partner who
has a bad connection which disconnects him.

It could be also possible to give characters their tax back earlier than
at the end of a 2vs2 duel to only prevent the early runners.
As example on round 4.

< Message edited by Thylek Shran -- 10/17/2014 16:00:10 >
DF Epic  Post #: 6
10/17/2014 15:52:55   
Gepard Acht
Member

I think that it's better to have players that "quit" to be not be able to play at all for a duration of time
EXP or even Credits tax would be a bit too much for people with unstable internet, it would discourage them to play at all

Another suggestion that relates to this is that the partner of the player that quit, gets to control the player that quits,
This would remove any handicap really

< Message edited by Gepard Acht -- 10/17/2014 15:55:24 >
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 7
10/17/2014 16:18:33   
Mother1
Member

@ Thylek Sharn

I don't know how many times I got kicked from the game due to a problem with the system itself or worse to worse I am unfortunate enough to start a match on an update day, get the warning message comes in the middle of a fight and clocks out before I finish.

In cases where the player isn't at fault but the system is no matter how 'rare' they may be for some is still the equal of punishing the same players who that your idea is supposed be protecting and that is my issue with it.

If you want to truly do something about runners instead of putting in a punishment system that will do more harm than good, how about we stomp out the root of why most people run which is sadly them running from fights they think they can't win which comes in the form of level gaps.

@ Gepard Ach

I remember someone telling there were was a run button in beta, but they removed it due to players overusing it due to not liking the match ups they get.

But on the note of what you are saying we already have a system like that in the form of the ban system. If you run too many times you get a PvP ban which in my opinion is more than fair seeing as the player themselves earned it from running away from battle

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 10/17/2014 16:19:16 >
Epic  Post #: 8
10/17/2014 16:22:53   
Thylek Shran
Member

Disconnects because of a bad internet connection are discouraging itself
and even enough to play any game which requires the internet. It does
not make sense to play games when having such a bad connection.

My suggestion would not hurt those players much as they are not envolved
enough because their bad connection prevents them to play anyway.
However about 95% of the disconnects that happen in the first few seconds
of a 2vs2 duel are user forced disconnects because they reload their browser
window or just quit playing for a while. The time lock option is not such a
good idea because it does not only affect 2vs2 but every other playing option
like 1vs1, NPC fights, doing missions or just hanging around.

Players with a bad connection still have the option for 1vs1, Juggernaut and
NPCs. The 2vs2 option is really the worst choice for them and will ruin the
fun for at least 1 other player. Its not only the disconnections its also the
missed turns that then happen.


quote:

If you want to truly do something about runners instead of putting in a punishment system that will do more harm than good, how about we stomp out the root of why most people run which is sadly them running from fights they think they can't win which comes in the form of level gaps.

I think that even with perfect balance and a remove with level and rank gaps
we would experience runners. Maybe less than now but still alot as this problem
does exist since the start of the game (Alpha). I had seen alot partners
leaving/running in the first few seconds even that I was pretty sure that our
team would had won. There are more reasons for running than only level gaps.
Like impatience, misjudgement, revenge and other personal dislikes.

< Message edited by Thylek Shran -- 10/17/2014 16:50:43 >
DF Epic  Post #: 9
10/17/2014 17:12:41   
Mother1
Member

@ Thylek Shran

For the players who are being malicious and are purposely destroying the fun of the game, I say go ahead punish them until the cows come home. Players like that aren't wanted and deserve the punishments they get. However that is as far as I can go with agreement.

However, when an idea that is supposed to be dealing with trouble makers spills over and starts hurting the people it is suppose to protect then the solution becomes a problem. This idea like the many other punishment for runners idea have no accident forgiveness, or system forgiveness. For example I was in a match sometime ago and was communicating with my partner so we can win. I made a mistake on the message, and was trying to erase the message to type it correct. However when I hit the back key it sent me back a page when that was not my intent. Has happened to me more than one in the past.

Now let's look at this. Did I want to run or disconnect from this battle on purpose? No I didn't. Did I have the intent of running from this battle or even want to run? No I didn't. However due to an accident that I wasn't planning it happened. Now every time this happens with your system in play I would not only get no rewards and get a loss, but I would also lose a portion of my EXP and credits all because of an accident that was not on purpose? Is this far to me or anyone this can happen to? No it is not because as I pointed out I had no intention of running and I wanted to fight but when i hit the back key it exited me out of the fight.

Now let's bring back my other example which is the system itself screwing you over. Many a time I have gotten the "you are kicked from epic duel" message when I did absolutely nothing wrong, got disconnected due to starting a match before the system update comes along (meaning I have no clue an update is coming soon) and can't beat the timer which results in everyone getting a loss, or the system lagging due to too many players coming onto one server only for the game to boot an unfortunate soul.

Why should players who are at no fault what so ever, be punished in any way? How is this far to those players? Answer it isn't. While I understand runners and Malicious players are a problem, let's lock the solution punishment to those players and only those players not the innocent ones.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 10/17/2014 17:14:08 >
Epic  Post #: 10
10/17/2014 17:20:01   
Exodasbr
Member

^ I agree with this . Actually 50 credits and 100xp can be quite alot, especially if you lose all the time like me. I think this will inevitably punish good players which might drive players away from the game.
AQW Epic  Post #: 11
10/17/2014 17:37:33   
Mother1
Member

@ Exodasbr

I have to ask do you lose due to getting disconnected or lose due to failing to win the battle but not getting disconnected.

Cause if it is the later this topic while i don't agree with it is only for people who get disconnected in any shape or form before the battle ends not if you just lose a battle.
Epic  Post #: 12
10/17/2014 17:55:57   
Exodasbr
Member

^ Yeah my connection is quite weak so I don't really go 2vs2. I 'm not really a hardcore player and only battle 5-10 times a day so having this would hinder my ability to get any new equipment. I understand what Thylek is saying about staying away from 2v2 but a lot of people will still want to 2v2 as the game gets boring on 1v1 all the time and with Jugg being near impossible near lv40.

< Message edited by Exodasbr -- 10/17/2014 17:59:23 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 13
10/18/2014 3:35:57   
Remorse
Member

At the end of the day,

The issue of people leaving battles whether it be bad connection or not, is a real one.

Personally I think people with bad connection deserved to be punished for DCing because they are hurting more then one person by playing, I think it's unfair that someone with bad contention gets the same punishment as his teammate when they DC when it was basically their fault entirely.

I'm not syaing these players can't play, I'm saying if they choose to do so then they should be willing to receive the extra punishment for the punishment they inflict on others by playing.


Perhaps the XP punishment could be removed but make the credit tax stay as I think that would be punishment enough.


As for DCing due to the updates, they warn you that they will be updating soon, so if you don't want to be punished DON'T PLAY until the update is over!!!!!

This idea is the first promising way I have seen in a long time to easily fix this issue.

Why would you shut it down because of the slightest little downside.


The way I see your defense mother, it's like, "no we should not stop Kim Jong Un's rein because it might hurt his feelings...."

Can you not understand that the harm 2v2 runners are doing to the game at least 10 times more of an issue then poor little low level players with bad connection...




< Message edited by Remorse -- 10/18/2014 3:47:29 >
Epic  Post #: 14
10/18/2014 12:45:24   
Thylek Shran
Member

quote:

Why should players who are at no fault what so ever, be punished in any way? How is this far to those players? Answer it isn't. While I understand runners and Malicious players are a problem, let's lock the solution punishment to those players and only those players not the innocent ones.

The intention of leaving a duel does not matter in the end. In your example you ruined
the game for your partner which is enough reason for a punishment even that it was not
your intention to leave. A punishment option could motivate you not to do such mistakes.
Players with a bad internet connection and slow laptops would think twice before they
enter a 2vs2 duel and for the notorious early runners (which are the real problem)
it would often be better to stay instead to leave so that there sure would be alot less
runners than now.


DF Epic  Post #: 15
10/18/2014 14:22:35   
Remorse
Member

^ Exactly,

And not only that, but if you were to try to separate "Disconnectors" from "Runners" it would be almost impossible to create a system that is able to punish one and not the other to a significant level.


In other games such as MOBAs where player participation is even more reliant, they punish everyone who leaves..

They don't care if you have dodgy internet, and they shouldn't, why? Because these players are ruining the enjoyment of the game for others.

Epic  Post #: 16
10/18/2014 14:50:06   
Mother1
Member

@ Remrose

quote:

As for DCing due to the updates, they warn you that they will be updating soon, so if you don't want to be punished DON'T PLAY until the update is over!!!!!


That would be valid if me for anyone else was trying to get a match and succeeded during the 30 second window that the updates allow before they close down all battle modes. However, anyone who starts a match and succeeds before this banner shows it's head then gets the warning while in the middle of battle would two options.

1) Hope that one team finishes the match before the time's up
2) get disconnected and suffer this penalty along with the loss. (were as before you would only get a loss)

In this situation you have no way of avoiding it because you already started the battle and while you were in battle the warning popped up.

Also Epic duel =/= MOBA

The game is run by different staff members who have not only different attitudes, but player bases. While I don't play MOBA games I am betting those are the more successful games with higher player bases. If this is so then they can afford to do this no matter how unjust it is because they have enough players to go around. Epic duel however doesn't. We need all our players, and putting in ideas that are basically saying "no matter what the situation even when it isn't your fault (AKA the system) you are guilty and must be held accountable" will discourage players rather than keep them due to the fact that whenever the system decides to mess with you, or an accident happens they get punished.

I myself I had times where my connection is working well, and my computer isn't laggy and I get kicked due to the game freezing, or bugs in the system. When those cases happen it is as I said no fault of the player. However with this system as long as you disconnect no matter what the situation you are guilty.


< Message edited by Mother1 -- 10/18/2014 14:51:55 >
Epic  Post #: 17
10/18/2014 15:27:17   
Exodasbr
Member

If this does get put in though I'd prefer it be a temporary ban from 2v2 or either xp.

e.g. For me personally even though I'm not one of thet 2v2 runnners I already have most of what I want from the game e.g. achievements,promo (and due to the nature of omega I only need one set of fully upgraded weapons) so a credit penalty would not stop me.
AQW Epic  Post #: 18
10/18/2014 18:16:04   
Variation
Member
 

 I could support this if the developers could determine if the disconnection was caused by their side, but wait they can only do that if it was a kick or forced disconnect. I know the server is aware of what's going on when a player is kicked or forced to disconnect so that isn't a problem. However, when the servers themselves are lagging it's something they have little control over and players could receive a punishment for something they didn't even cause. I for one would be pretty ticked off if I received a punishment for something that wasn't even my fault. While some of you guys may think that's a weak reason because it doesn't happen often, you need to look at the fact that it does happen. Players are disconnected a lot sometimes due to actual server lag, not lag on their side. While 2v2 runners are certainly a problem, this suggestion isn't the way of going about fixing it. Players already rage hard when they're disconnected(not because of their side) while in a 2v2 battle, how do you think they'd feel if not only they were disconnected, but lost credits/experience also all due to a server bug? The moderation team can already issue punishments if the reporter has proof that said person is constantly "running" from 2v2 matches. I've seen a player get banned for doing the exact thing that the OP is trying to prevent.

Also, I can tell you as a 2v2 player that if this suggestion was implemented you would still deal with runners. Why do I say that? You're already punished from running away from a 2v2 battle, you gain no experience, credits, and you get an instant loss. How is that not a punishment? Amplifying the punishment may stop some players from running, but it won't stop them all. There will always be players who run even with punishments such as this (I've played a game that has an even harsher punishment than this from tourney runners and players still run all the time). So why does the punishment you get from running need to be amplified to a point where it would have an even harsher impact on players who aren't the fault of their disconnection? That isn't fair at all and it would be complete garbage.
Post #: 19
10/19/2014 5:15:10   
Thylek Shran
Member

quote:

If this does get put in though I'd prefer it be a temporary ban from 2v2

This would be even better as players who got disconnected still could play and earn rewards.
A warmup time of about 3 minutes for 2vs2 duels after every login should be high enough to
handle the repetitive runners while its low enough not to be much of a problem for others as
there are so many other things that players can do during that time.
DF Epic  Post #: 20
10/19/2014 6:39:11   
Mother1
Member

@ Thylek Shran

They already have a ban system in play for repeat runners if you didn't know. If you run too many times from players you end up getting banned. I have seen players come here to the forums and complain about how they got banned from PVP because they ran enough times, and saying they should have the right to run and not get punished because the system itself throws them into unfair matches.
Epic  Post #: 21
10/19/2014 18:25:39   
Stonehawk
Member

Here some suggestions:
1) Banned for X minutes for leaving during 2 vs 2 battles repeatedly on the same day (the more they disconnect it increases punishment)
2) Leaving/dying player's name should remain on the screen so we can see his/her stats AND REPORT (most important), and there should be a new reporting reason for those cases. This would help on other cases too, like counting the number of times a player leave or disconnect during 2 vs 2 battles on a day by reporting, and also dead people using bad language.

Other problems about 2 vs 2 (hard to solve):
We don't experience problems with leaving people only, but people without equipments too, aswell as people skipping turns to let a friend on the other side win, or just making his team lose for not liking his/her partner. Sometimes we feel like leaving because we know our partner is not going to play, so it's kinda unfair to punish us for leaving on those cases. It'll always be difficult to make 2 vs 2 mode almost flawless.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 22
10/19/2014 18:52:37   
Thylek Shran
Member

Banning characters should only happen for very repetitive runners
as it is the ultimate punishment. Banning them not only from 2vs2
but for the whole game is much to harsh. Exodasbr´s idea with the
warmup is much easier to handle and fair and will take effect on
everyone who disconnects without the need of a ban and other
punishments. It will prevent massive and repetitive running while
not being a big punishment for characters that got disconnected
accidently or by lag.

The most runners happen pretty randomly and its often hard to
say how repetitive they act as you cannot watch every 2vs2 duel.
I dont know if there is an automatically ban system but the report
tool does not help much with quick runners as you often cannot
read their names or press the report buttons that fast.
DF Epic  Post #: 23
10/20/2014 21:32:27   
The Basic Instinct
Member

And what about people who have to do 2v2 missions? I'm sure there's no way around that.

Besides, there's already a penalty for consecutively leaving battles, which is being suspended from battling until something o'clock.

< Message edited by The Basic Instinct -- 10/20/2014 21:39:15 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 24
10/20/2014 21:46:56   
Dual Thrusters
Member

^

Here's a twist: And what about the people who are banned from the game and cannot do anything at all? I'm sure there's no way around that.

As it is described through this discussion, this is the ultimate punishment for the most notorious of runners who probably leave like +100 games on a daily basis. They deserve what they get. They probably won't be needing those 2v2 missions if all they're doing is leaving them lol

Its pretty easy to avoid getting locked out of 2v2 this way: don't freaking leave the game right when starts! A solution to some cases might be that if your partner leaves, you are allowed to leave without ANY consequences.
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 25
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