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Balancing Katherax: make its normal attack blockable

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11/22/2014 19:13:08   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 Katherax has the highest base damage in the game, and yet has a deflectable normal attack. This means that tech-spam builds can use it without significant risks or drawbacks. This also contributes to the dominance of tech-spam Blood Mages at level 40.

Given that all other bots have blockable normal attacks, making Katherax's normal attack blockable would not only balance it out, but also return it to the standard set by other bots. The only other bot with a deflectable normal attack, Pyro Fly, has the lowest base damage among all robots, so it does not pose as much of an issue.
Post #: 1
11/22/2014 19:28:01   
The Jop
Member

What is the reason that deflects reduce damage by 50% and blocks reduce damage by 85% anyway?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 2
11/22/2014 19:32:44   
Mother1
Member

@ SSM

originally the attack of this robot was blockable however people complained about the attack being blockable when it was a projectile attack and the staff changed it to be consistant with the other robots that work like this.

Also not every robot has a blockable normal attack.

The Botantical borg's normal attack is also deflectiable and it has 170 offensive power.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 11/22/2014 19:33:41 >
Epic  Post #: 3
11/22/2014 20:37:12   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 Well, Katherax has 190 base damage...

IMO the staff should just standardise so that all bots' normal attacks are blockable. All other weapon types have different stats affecting weapon damage and weapon accuracy, whereas deflectable bots use the same stat, leading to potential abuse.
Post #: 4
11/22/2014 20:59:47   
Mother1
Member

@ JOP

Blocks are supposed to hold more weight when defending then deflections. I remember Rabble saying this sometime ago when someone asked this same question.

@ SSM

For that to work the staff would have to make sure every new robot uses melee based normal attacks otherwise you will get complaints about the animation luck factors not matching up like with the robot you are trying to get blockable again.

Cause making the pyro beam which is a laser blockable again would cause not only confusion but could in turn cause people not no buy it just like with this bot due to this feature. The same can be said of the botanical borg which shots spores like bullets.
Epic  Post #: 5
11/22/2014 22:51:58   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 @Mother1

I really think that animation should not be a reason to ignore balance concerns. Furthermore, I don't see why bots being blockable would be a reason for people not to buy them. The introduction of a single new bot, let alone the eight new cores in the upcoming event, requires more adaptation than that needed to get used to the suggested change. Just make it known that from now on all robots' normal attacks will be blockable, regardless of whether they have a melee or ranged animation.

< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 11/22/2014 22:53:20 >
Post #: 6
11/22/2014 23:37:25   
Mother1
Member

@ SSM

Well in this case sadly it was. Cause as I pointed out the attack was indeed originally blockable. However the moment this was found out a bug report came in saying the animation didn't match with the luck factor, then the staff changed it to be consistent with the kind of attack being used.

Like it or not that does bother people and can make them choose not to buy something if they feel something is off. In fact here is the bug report about it right here.

While it may not bother you, it will bother others seeing as to many consistency does count in their books.
Epic  Post #: 7
11/22/2014 23:55:45   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 ^

You just have to shift the frame of consistency from animation to a flat standard for robots, namely that their normal attacks will all be blockable.
Post #: 8
11/23/2014 0:01:45   
dfo99
Member
 
quote:

I really think that animation should not be a reason to ignore balance concerns


this was the reason that i don't post more nothing about balance, use the animation of katherax as the reason to made it deflectable means that the devs not follow any kind of rational logic. for example, if someone post in the suggest section to made skills like bunker, plasma cannon, or others deflectable against somekind of spiked armor because it have spikes, this ridiculously stupid suggestion really could be implemented. (could be other kind of armor, does not matter)
Post #: 9
11/23/2014 7:33:49   
Noobatron x3000
Member

This bot shouldn't be deflectable it gives it a sizeable advantage over every other bot especially with the highest base damage - And the I win core against any strength build.

It shouldn't be deflectable for the same reason they changed the black abyss E bot, Very few people took the blasck abyss P bot when you could potentially do 30 dmg. A deflect still isn't to bad damage wise.
Post #: 10
11/23/2014 7:56:15   
Mother1
Member

@ Noobatron x3000

The reason the black abyss bot was made blockable was because of the animation which was a melee slash. If they went by your logic this bot would be as it is not deflectable due to the animation being a projectile attack not a melee.
Epic  Post #: 11
11/23/2014 7:58:55   
King Bling
Member

The reason this bot has an edge over all the other bots is that, it can beat both other f5 players and the str abusers , reason is pretty obvious , the core handles the str abusers and the high base damage giving literally a 671-737 bot damage can cause a whooping damage of 507- 601 to a build ranging from normal str to a tank f5 where even a 400 resistance takes like 450-500 damage against this bot at rage, people who think this bot is perfectly fine are ignorant knowing that due to this bot even level 24 have 500+ to 520+ and lvl 35 having 600+ bot damage.
So to balance it, yes make it blockable, by changing the animation.
Post #: 12
11/23/2014 8:01:39   
Squrwogrona
Member

If the devs change kartherax back to blockable, str would rule again, simple as that. With random as it is, there is no problem to win just by spamming strike/occasional MoB and ignore everything. I agree that the base dmg is a bit too high, but reversing the animation would make this bot useless. Variety is too low nowadays, either focus or str or spam stat of your choice in some cases, I see no point in restricting builds further.

Keep in mind that str/strike builds need only one deflect and in most cases that is enough for them to win. Surest way to defeat these builds is to use unblockable moves and even then it is all about random. It is bad enough that 50+tech can deflect people with 120+. That said, this is my opinion, so if devs nerf it I'll be mad for a few days, then make another build, so whatever.

< Message edited by Squrwogrona -- 11/23/2014 8:15:44 >
Epic  Post #: 13
11/23/2014 8:06:55   
King Bling
Member

I though the core was enough to shut down a str abuser for 3 turns, isnt that enough to stop em' plus f5 without the bot win str abusers pretty easily.

@Mother1

And bout the animation, if we really go by animation and change things, then massacre has an animation of slaughtering your enemy, if we go by animation, it means that moves should cut your enemy into 1000 pieces which also means it should be a 1 hit ko, use it and the opponent dies instantly.
Post #: 14
11/23/2014 8:18:28   
Squrwogrona
Member

@ King Bling

3 turns "shuts" them down but it is not autowin case to be honest, it just helps to make them beatable for anyone who is not using str/strike high hp build.

< Message edited by Squrwogrona -- 11/23/2014 8:19:31 >
Epic  Post #: 15
11/23/2014 11:33:31   
Mother1
Member

@ King Bling

It only weakens the primary for 3 turns it does not however nerf strength itself for 3 turns. You can still use your gun which works with strength, and you can still do other moves to get around this. For example as a TM if I need to I can use assimilation and while the damage itself is weak the drain, and rage gain still help me get around this issue.
Epic  Post #: 16
11/23/2014 12:53:15   
King Bling
Member

It "ONLY" weakens? That not only its everything, it doesn't weaken it destroys str for 3 turns, why cause any move would do only 30 damage, nothing more and about the gun, come on you know the f5 has a lot of more tech than a str abuser, lot enough for deflection.

And @ Squrwogrona yes it shuts them down, what else do you need? an autowin against em? no one spoon feeds you , you have the bot, then you got more chances to win but in this case it can even overcome the other f5's.

The thing I want to convey is that, if you have the bot, you can beat strength , you can beat f5 due to more robot damage, as far as I have seen one can achieve 671-734 bot damage with this , giving edge over f5s and other builds like dex cannot stand f5 and with this bot being defl they lose as well, so Kartherax > f5 > str> dex > any other build.
Post #: 17
11/23/2014 13:31:51   
Variation
Member
 

 ^It doesn't "destroy" strength for three turns or the strength abuser's sidearm would be affected also. Saying that the five focus user has high tech therefore a high deflection chance versus strength users is no justification to say Curse of Kartherax destroys strength. It cannot destroy strength when your sidearm is left unaffected.

Also there have been numerous complaints about the Kartherax Darkspawns and members of the EpicDuel team addressed those complaints by pretty much implying these robots will not be nerfed. I believe most of the true reasons why there are so much complaints is because
A) There is finally a robot that people seem to prefer over Infernal Android.
B) Many players are going to have to wait a year after the robots were first released to get them.

I will tell you without a doubt making these robots blockable will buff strength regardless of the special (Curse of Kartherax). I remember when these bots first came out and I found out they were blockable in a 2v2. I was furious. Not because I wanted to have a deflectable robot(which I actually did besides the Botanical Borgs), but the fact that the attack is ranged. Five focus users have to go against players (strength builds included) with very high dexterity. That would've automatically made the robot inconsistent versus high dexterity builds due to them having a high block chance on you. Players have been aware of all of the blockable robots' issue for years now and there was even a thread made about it. Also I'm sure if someone went and suggested that Infernal Overload became blockable some players would be all against that suggestion for one of the very reasons why I'm against making the Darkspawns' normal attack deflectable. You shouldn't have to be worried over using your robot, which is generally your main attack as five focus on users with high dexterity. This is why I myself said we need more deflectable robots, I didn't suggest that for myself. I suggested that because it's ridiculous how unreliable blockable robots are at level 40. Using very high dexterity at level 40 to combat that while being in a five focus build is silly, because then you'll be losing essential stat points from technology which not only increases your robot's damage, but also lowers your opponent's deflection chance.

If some of you guys believe the base damage is too high (which I don't when I compare it to the specials of some other robots such as Armor Annihilator and Necrosis) and you think that is justification for it to become blockable, that is a horrible solution. It would be much better to simply lower the base damage of the robot instead of making it as useless as most(not all) of the robots versus high dexterity builds.
Post #: 18
11/23/2014 13:53:42   
Mother1
Member

@ Variation

correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the originally reason robot's had the old standard of being blockable was because the staff couldn't make deflectable robots due to the limits of flash? I am not sure but I think I remember reading somewhere that they didn't do this at first because they couldn't, and I think it wasn't until they balanced all the old buts that the first deflectable attacks for robots finally came into play.
Epic  Post #: 19
11/23/2014 14:05:42   
Variation
Member
 

 ^I'm not sure myself actually. I do remember both of Gamma Bot's attacks being blockable when it was originally released, but I never did see the developers say why it was that way.
Post #: 20
11/23/2014 14:34:31   
Mother1
Member

@ Variation

Yeah the Gamma bot's laser was blockable as I remember blocking the attack before back in delta. The same could be said of the pyro's fly's beam attack before Omega came along and changed it.

Also after doing some digging, I was able to find out that I wasn't wrong.

Here is the old bot balance thread where Rabble posts

It was just as I thought they couldn't make deflectable robots until that bot balance update which was why they only at first made blockable ones, and even made the gamma bot's and pyro's fly's lasers blockable instead of deflectable at first.
Epic  Post #: 21
11/23/2014 16:50:43   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 Variation, most strength users I see don't have significantly more dex than 5 focus users, so I'm not sure what your concern is. Saying that making Katherax blockable will buff strength is laughable. It's basically saying nerfing anything which a strength build doesn't use, from Plasma Bolt to energy regen, will buff strength.

More importantly, you fail to recognise that deflectable robots rely on tech for both damage and accuracy, as opposed to tech and dex for blockable robots, supp and tech for auxes, str and tech for guns and str and dex for primaries. How is this fair?

Plus, I can apply all the arguments you make to str builds. How is it fair for attacks using their primaries, which are their main attacks, to be so unreliable against high dex builds?

< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 11/23/2014 16:51:23 >
Post #: 22
11/23/2014 17:19:50   
Variation
Member
 

 ^Primary attack can be used every single round, your robot cannot. Also my strength BM build that I've done 97%+ with in 1v1 has 107 dexterity. If a five focus build even has 85 dexterity I would have a 17% chance to block their blockable attacks. So yes that's my argument and it won't change, the best strength builds have dexterity that a five focus user cannot match without severely crippling their build. Even if Curse of Kartherax heavily lowered primary damage if the normal attack was blockable it would be very risky to use the robot, especially considering the fact that blocks reduce damage by 85%. 190 base damage means absolutely nothing if the normal attack is risky to use against the strongest strength builds. I remember when the bot first came out and I found out it was blockable I instantly reverted back to my original build which could make much more use of my other robot without being risky. If the robot was blockable Infernal Android would be better than it without a doubt. Like I pretty much implied, if someone came and said Infernal Overload should be blockable and even make the normal attack deflectable some players would be all over the place bringing up the same points I am. A blockable robot(or a deflectable robot with a strong blockable special, my IA example (not how it is currently)) unless it has a very good special (not just versus strength builds) isn't worth using in EpicDuel's current state. So many people can deal with Infernal Android being blockable because it has a special that's deflectable and can deal 130% total robot damage.

There was a reason why someone made a thread about creating more deflectable robots. Mainly for the points I brought up. A robot has a cooldown of 3 turns, it should be much more reliable with focus builds than strike which can be used every turn.

Robots should synergize well with five focus builds. A five focus build shouldn't have to use gun/aux many more times than they're using their robot. That's what I love about the Kartherax robots, I can actually use them versus high dexterity builds (strength builds included, as from what I've seen the best ones have 100+ dexterity).

< Message edited by Variation -- 11/23/2014 17:26:00 >
Post #: 23
11/23/2014 17:28:46   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 Would you also then make the argument that auxillaries should base both damage and accuracy on support? Or that skills like Berserker, which also have cooldowns, base their accuracy on strength? And five focus builds have all-round damage, saying five focus builds shouldn't use gun or aux often is absolute nonsense. Deflectable bots take away the versatility of five focus builds by making the default superior option tech-spam, reducing variety overall.

< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 11/23/2014 17:40:12 >
Post #: 24
11/23/2014 17:53:12   
Variation
Member
 

 ^Remember I did say this,
quote:


I will tell you without a doubt making these robots blockable will buff strength regardless of the special (Curse of Kartherax). I remember when these bots first came out and I found out they were blockable in a 2v2. I was furious. Not because I wanted to have a deflectable robot(which I actually did besides the Botanical Borgs), but the fact that the attack is ranged.


If the robot had a melee animation in the first place then it could've stayed blockable.

Also it makes more sense for auxiliaries' accuracy to be based on technology, that's the reason why deflection chance was removed from support and placed on technology. Also, no I wouldn't make the argument that Berserker's accuracy should be based on strength, because it's a melee based attack meaning dexterity should determine its accuracy.

Breath of Kartherax is a ranged attack so it'll only lead to confusion and frustration if it was blockable. They could very well change the animation to make it a melee based attack, but many players have already bought the promo solely based on the fact that the robots are deflectable. The developers should be encouraging spending, not the other way around.

Also what I meant by them synergizing well with five focus builds(high tech), is simply making more robots with ranged attacks. So even with my arguments about the issues of blockable robots, if the robot has a melee animation then it's standardized to be blockable. That's how the developers standardize whether an attack is blockable or deflectable, and I'm not posting in this thread to have them change that. When I said we need more deflectable robots that implied we need more robots with ranged attacks. So no I wouldn't make the arguments that you've proposed I should've just been more specific with what I was trying to say.

The high dexterity argument was made to show that there are reasons for more deflectable robots(robots with ranged attacks).

Five focus users already have to sacrifice a lot of points into other stats to even get their 5 focus, while strength builds have to sacrifice very little for strong damage. My strength build had 552 primary damage, 1,400hp, 330+ defense, and 340+ resistance. All of that while having 107 dexterity which pretty much put focus users with blockable robots at a huge disadvantage. If their robot was deflectable(meaning the accuracy is based off of technology which is how its standardized for ranged attacks) they wouldn't have to fear using it against me and have a much higher chance to win the battle.

< Message edited by Variation -- 11/23/2014 18:12:03 >
Post #: 25
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