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Reducing levels/stats/skill points

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6/20/2016 15:02:15   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 Hey everyone,

After talking with the devs, we are starting to look into possibly reducing the amount of skill points and stats that players get, most notably at higher levels where they end up getting way too many skill points than they need for the game's balance to be healthy. 40 skill points for 12 skills is, according to some people, a bit too much. Same can be said for the amount of stat points people are getting at higher levels. However, for us to even consider the possibility of implementing this suggestion we need some ideas for how to introduce it without just taking away what most of the current playerbase would consider the fruits of their hard work and endless hours of grinding. So, I'm looking for your guys' ideas on this. If you don't support this change at all then feel free to mention that you don't support it and state why so we can know whether or not this suggestion is worth implementing.

We should disregard ranks and just suppose they don't exist so that we can focus mostly on simply the stat/skill points gained from levels alone.

< Message edited by Exploding Penguin -- 6/21/2016 19:09:32 >
Epic  Post #: 1
6/20/2016 15:18:20   
Satafou
Member

I don't support this purely for the fact that less skill/stat points will cause even more limitation of builds than we have at the moment. If anything we need more stats that are easily obtainable for all players.

Ranks aren't broken, the gap it created between players is. Old exp/wins should of been at the very least been taken into account for ranks. However being brutally honest, if you want to lower stats you're just as well removing legendary mode and giving a full refund to those with unlocked ranked points and maybe exclusive farming missions or whatever to make them feel not as ripped off. It would be the easiest way to reduce stats.
Post #: 2
6/20/2016 15:48:49   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 I would actually disagree and say that having that many skill points instead lowers build diversity, rather than increases it. The main reason is that with that many skill points, all of the previous "unique" builds slowly start to mesh together and simply because altered versions of each other. For example, a build that used to focus on only plasma bolt may now have lots of elements of a supercharge build and vice versa, since there are so many skill points which can be dumped into other skills. The two unique plasma bolt and supercharge builds have essentially just become the same single build with slight variations to it, whereas we had 2 almost entirely different builds before.
Epic  Post #: 3
6/20/2016 16:11:48   
8x
Member

In my opinion, doing this (or at least thinking ahead about the consequences of increases of max levels and addition of unnecessary enchantments) would have been a good idea 4 or 5 years ago. But now, any solution that might be introduced to possibly fix EpicDuel's problems will have to be something extreme (bigger than omega).

What I'm about to say, is what I used to wish to see done to ED in the past. Max level increases, obviously we can't do anything about that now... Skill points, players get a total of 30 skill points (you figure out at which levels they should get them). Stats, I want to say decrease the number of stats, the same as with skill points, but I won't. Instead, get rid of the enchantments on guns, bazookas and armors (for armors, just remove the stats, keep the +physical/energy defense). For primary weapons, let players put all of their enchantments in one stat if they want to. Legendary ranks, take away the PvP advantage, all other changes are pointless if legendary ranks still give pvp advantages.

I might be just spouting out nonsense or I might be making sense. I don't know, I almost don't care, whatever changes might occur won't bother me as I don't bother to play the game (But I do still care...). Also, I think that even if ED was made into a pinnacle of perfection, it would never be able to reach up to its former glory. I can be very pessimistic.

< Message edited by 8x -- 6/20/2016 16:14:56 >
Epic  Post #: 4
6/20/2016 18:01:26   
Mr. Black OP
Member

I'm against it. It would make ranks even more OP since a rank 1 level 40 will have even less stat points while a high rank player loses just a small amount of the overall power. It would also make jugg even harder for players who are in their high 30s or low rank 40s where it is already very difficult. There are also must have skills which players ALWAYS use regardless of build such as battery back up, static grenade, static smash, assimilate, etc. Because of these skills people are just going to drop points in offensive skills making battles even slower and builds more similar.

How about other changes such as making some shields worth upgrading beyond level 2 or 3? Making offensive skills more viable without stat spamming? Making energy based skills less of a must have? Making viable cores for non-seasonal weps? REMOVING LEGENDARY RANKS FOR NON NPC FIGHTS?

I really don't care too much about build diversity. There is always going to be a handful of builds that simply outshine the others. Due to ED's small population it's going to catch on quick so any original builds are short lived. It has happened in ED for as long as I could remember. Happens in almost every other game I've played as well where some level of practical customization is allowed. If you want more diversity then create more skills. There aren't any skills that require a gun or an aux or even a robot, that could be interesting to see. And I know the ED devs are 100% against passives but I don't think I've ever played a game where you don't have passives in your "build" so maybe consider adding some even if they aren't must haves.

Also on the SC/Plasma Bolt build. I would not consider spamming tech then picking SC and spamming tech then picking plasma bolt to be very distinct or unique from one another (assuming this was after SC switching from dex to tech).

< Message edited by Mr. Black OP -- 6/20/2016 18:02:09 >
Epic  Post #: 5
6/20/2016 18:24:14   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 I meant to state that we should disregard ranks and just suppose they don't exist so that we can focus mostly on simply the stat/skill points gained from levels alone.

Thanks for all the responses thus far, they're really helpful towards improving ED and I will make sure the devs are notified of all your input.

< Message edited by Exploding Penguin -- 6/20/2016 18:25:08 >
Epic  Post #: 6
6/20/2016 18:40:24   
Satafou
Member

Lower stats and skill points will always lead to less build diversity due to there simply not being as much options. I personally have never found there to be too much skill points or stats. I don't waste a single skill point for any build i make, for any class. It's nice to see that there is actually some effort and more notably communication in this thread. However i can't comprehend as to how lowering the amount of skill points and stats would change anything as everyone would still be in the same situation as we are in right now, accept we'd have less options for our skill trees and stat distribution.

On a side note, you could argue that if someone was to use plasma bolt and supercharge in the same build, (which i'm not really sure why they would, as you're really going to either use one or the other). Although it could be used in a tactical sense. Opponents could be too wary and focused on the supercharge for you to only intent to use bolt rage etc. Thus it's not wasted stat points if you were to get that desired effect. A lot of the time a build isn't necessarily defined by how it looks on paper but rather how a player uses it. This is why when a new apparent "overpowered" build comes into play that despite people copying it. Some players will get 90% others will get 70% and perhaps some as low as 50-60%.

I know you have stated that this suggestion is to be thought about excluding ranks at the moment, however ranks will still play a crucial role if this was to be implemented, for the reasons Mr. Black OP has stated. The biggest and probably the best place to start with attempting to make this game somewhat balanced would be to have a serious look at legendary mode. The extra stats itself is fine, but the gap has to be somehow closed if the ED devs still want to keep the legendary mode in ED.
Post #: 7
6/20/2016 20:16:42   
Altador987
Member

Satafou you got the build down, that's exactly what happens when you use both supercharge and plasma bolt (and a poison bot for a lil extra fun). Also I agree wholeheartedly in that I specify every stat point i use to my advantage (i hate using focus builds they're so unoriginal and boring). I'd hate to see my builds limited, I love having the option to utilize almost every skill and use them well. For me it allows for variety and spontaneity. The only way I could see this working is if skills weren't reliant on a certain lvl/previous skill for use.
AQW Epic  Post #: 8
6/21/2016 8:58:38   
leahnrachel
Banned

 

 Stats don't need changing , Stats aren't the balance problem if everyones on a level playing field , 1 40 can do the same as another , a 2v2 with a overall team level 77 vs another level 77 team has the same ability.

The problem is ranks , The pvp advantage has to go their are not enough people to balance the power creep from ranks never has been.

If your not willing to alter ranks and entirely remove the pvp advantage your not willing to fix the problem , Touching stats and skill points would change NOTHING with ranks how they are. Just another bandaid that actually would make balance WORSE for none ranked players.

If your trying to lose your none l40 playerbase continue building on ranks...
Post #: 9
6/21/2016 12:25:12   
8x
Member

quote:

Lower stats and skill points will always lead to less build diversity due to there simply not being as much options.

In my opinion, it is the other way around. If you have plenty of SS points, you can do everything (everyone uses all of the "must have" skills). But, if you have fewer of them, you have to start thinking outside of the box on how to spend your SS points wisely (everyone is doing something different, well, the creative people are, others just copy).

No need to reply, I just wanted to further explain why I think having less SS points is better. (SS - Skill and Stat)
Epic  Post #: 10
6/21/2016 17:33:44   
Mr. Delector
Member

PLEASE remove the ranks. We need it to get back the good old balanced EpicDuel that we all know and love. You guys could give credits to ranked players, for instance 1k credits for 1 rank (so a rank 40 would get 40k free credits etc.)
Epic  Post #: 11
6/21/2016 19:09:11   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 Apparently people don't like to read intermediate messages so I will update the OP right now.
Epic  Post #: 12
6/21/2016 21:18:41   
Xendran
Member

Another thing, is it really necessary for skills to have 10 tiers?
10 would make sense if you could change the power of a skill mid fight, but honestly the way it is now just kinda devalues each skill point making them feel less impactful.
A 3-5 tier system seems to fit better, just keep the same min and max but make the jump in each point bigger.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 6/21/2016 21:19:33 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 13
6/21/2016 21:29:40   
leahnrachel
Banned

 

 We are saying that the discussion is absolutely redundant , If ranks are not removed changing stats or skill points wont bring people back , wont have any of the desired effects because the power creep will still be there.

The suggested changes are a absolute waste of time if people are unwilling to fix the problem in its entirety.



No more band aids.

Doesn't matter to me though got another alt to 35 remembered how broken the end game is now (ranks) Back in retirement .

< Message edited by leahnrachel -- 6/21/2016 21:31:23 >
Post #: 14
6/22/2016 12:33:58   
Altador987
Member

actually, not to continue off topic, if the classes themselves were equally balanced ranks wouldn't make an extreme difference, as build diversity would be more tangible and more players would most likely join making it much easier for a rank 1 to fight a rank 5-10 as opposed to 50-100
AQW Epic  Post #: 15
6/22/2016 15:14:50   
leahnrachel
Banned

 

 At EDs absolute best population , Matchmaking balance I will be generous was poor with less levels.

We now have more levels 100 ranks and 10% of the population (again being generous) mostly bots/dummies from what I've seen of the 100-300 logging in.

To suggest that enough people to balance 100 ranks and 40 levels are going to come flooding in when they couldn't balance it with 35 levels, more players and no ranks, Is unrealistic.

So you have to deal with the issue directly , Rather then trying to attach a band aid that wont hold.
Post #: 16
6/22/2016 20:17:27   
shadow.bane
Member

tbh I support this 100 % ed need some changes a lot of them actually but my suggestion is to give 3 stat point per level down from 4 and 2 skills each 3 levels down from 1 for each level , but the downside of this it will remove high hp builds cause less points to invest in and if u choose to go high hp you will lose a lot of your tankiness even tankines will be lower at this point and then we might see massacre builds that went vairal mid /late delta to be back again and powerful as it was before.

_____________________________

Bane Hallow The Last Shadow Fiend.
AQW Epic  Post #: 17
6/22/2016 23:34:44   
nowras
Member

@Shadow.Bane So that Juggernaut becomes more unplayable? Reducing stats from 4 to 3 will just make low level players stronger than high level ones. I suggest the opposite.
I suggest that the starting stats should be 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 and then you get 3 stats per a level and extra 5 or 4 stats to the base stats each time you reach one of these levels (5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, rank 80) when level 5 gets 4 strength, 10 gets 4 support, 15 gets 4 dexterity, 20 gets 4 technology, 25 gets 4 strength, 30 gets 4 support, 35 gets 5 dexterity, 40 gets 5 technology and rank 80 gets 1 for strength and support. It would make juggernaut more playable and also being able to unlock your 1st skill at level 5 instead of 2 is better. And of course, massacre builds would exist again because you don't have to invest too much stats in strength to strengthen massacre but, with this change you will also have to increase the HP you get from one point and reduce the main health to 400 + 5x when x is your current level.

< Message edited by nowras -- 6/22/2016 23:48:27 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 18
6/23/2016 1:52:24   
Lord Abdi
Member

Nawras, you're just reducing the points legendary players will be getting. Legendary modes needs to be disregarded but it has to be in a way where everybody will see eye to eye instead of their being a big drama like it already it.

I don't see any point in lowering the stat and skill points since people would just lose creativity in builds. In a fair fight of where the ranks are matched, there's nothing wrong with the stat and skill points. The thing that needs to be focused on is how to make matches fair between high lvl rankers and low lvl rankers or non rankers at all. High lvl rankers would have the complete edge against low lvl rankers and I get that's what's trying to be addressed right here but all I'm seeing is how ranks should be removed, and thus the people that bought ranks should be ripped off.


Low rank players are non rankers have underdog to help them what if underdog gets increase than it already is and maybe that'll make it a bit more of a fair fight?

l Lord Abdi l // X0D1AC
Post #: 19
6/23/2016 6:26:14   
shadow.bane
Member

@Nowras everything have a solution ill stay with my suggestion here and the solution I found for juggernaut here
@Lord Abdi powering underdog will only make things worst as they are now cause the main problem in EpicDuel now is ranks and underdog mode.
AQW Epic  Post #: 20
6/23/2016 6:33:16   
leahnrachel
Banned

 

 @nowras ranks have to go , You don't like it that's fine , but the pvp advantage will go , It generally takes awhile with the ED staff, But the game cannot be balanced with ranks giving a pvp advantage . they will never get enough people to balance ranks with ranks breaking the game , to many people will quit before they get high enough rank.

It will never be balanced

So in short . In order to grow the population , The game has to be balanced, there is simply no way of balancing matchmaking with ranks in play , The population wont grow with current balance.

Their hand will be forced eventually.

@lord abdi I know you don't want to feel ripped off but surely you want the population to grow? This wont happen if you keep your ranks pvp advantage.

Seems like the devs have a difficult decision let the game stagnate and flatline with a couple of hundred people playing , Or make huge balance changes , On the level of reducing the level cap , Removing ranks , an agility based system for a particularly abused stat.... changing the first turn mechanism , lowering the crit mechanism , upping the block deflect mechanism.

< Message edited by leahnrachel -- 6/23/2016 6:41:40 >
Post #: 21
6/23/2016 7:48:45   
Lord Abdi
Member

The problem of the game is the legendary mode and there isn't anyway to go about it. It shouldn't have been made in the 1st place because now you have all this drama of how the game is broken and it needs to be repaired.

If you were to take off the legendary ranks, others that worked hard for it will feel ripped off. But then if you leave it then there's the problem of the match really being one sided where the high ranker has all the advantages and the low ranker has a really low chance of winning because of the big gap difference in ranks. You can't increase underdog mode now because again, others will feel ripped off since they worked for it and these people are just getting it for free, it being handed to them without cost and that isn't right.


Due to the issue of legendary ranks where there isn't a clear pavement to go. I don't think there isn't much you can do about the changes you would want to consider making because any idea you'd want to make doesn't seem like it'll work out for the players.


@Leahnrachel, I'm not that much of a high ranker myself. I'm still in my 20's so I got a long way to go.

Lord Abdi // X0D1AC



Was it essential for the game to have legendary mode? I don't see why there had to be ranks in the game especially when it cost so much and others couldn't really afford it. Especially non varium players that played battles to earn credits to buy new items for themselves.

Please don’t double post. Use the "Edit" button instead. ~Battle Elf

< Message edited by Battle Elf -- 6/23/2016 13:29:56 >
Post #: 22
6/25/2016 0:06:43   
Lord Machaar
Member

I came late to the party, now that I wanted to reply, I got a bit confused.
quote:

We should disregard ranks and just suppose they don't exist so that we can focus mostly on simply the stat/skill points gained from levels alone.

We can't disregard a reality. If you reduce levels/stats/skill points, ranks will become overpowered, as logically & at level 30, having +40 robot/sidearm/aux damage and +30 def/resis/primary damage will have more impact.

And even if we want to disregard it, it will be kinda useless to discuss this feature as all opinions are built up upon the idea of "there are no ranks". Well guess what, when it will be applied, there will be ranks, and it will be another failure. If we are going to have a discussion about a feature, it should be done while taking in consideration the current state of the game.

Anyways, while diregarding ranks, reducing skill points/stats can benefit some builds/classes more than others, affect build diversity at low levels and, ofcourse according to the current game meta.
-It can affect certain classes like those who have 2 - 3 energy skills, since you need to obligatory spend skill points on them before moving to other types of skills. Classes with 1 energy skill can spend more skill points hence making their builds more versatile.
-It can affect builds that depend on different skills, heck currently as using 5 focus TLM, I still roughly need around 9 - 10 skill points to max out blood shield (since it costs 90 HP eitheways, why not max it?) and invest some skill points in atom smasher. The opposite can be said for Supp BMs as an example, this build can function with basically 2 skills, parasite and overload. At level 40s, I found Supp BMs with an excess of skill points (up to 10) hence being used to maximize useless skills that don't have requirements (energy rain). Both are examples of builds, one has excess of skill points, and the other one still requires more skill points. Reducing skill points will ultimately mean some builds won't be used at low levels, hence lowernig diversity.

Implementing this feature alone won't magically fix all balance problems, it must be backed up with other tweaks. Balance 2vs2 and mercenary class, legendary mode, juggernaut battle mode (better be deleted), overlapping skills and whatnot.
New Skill Suggestions to Eliminate Overlapping Skills
War 2.0 Redux
=ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread

I'm not really a big fan of wasting time on stuff that will soon be ignored by the devs. Not that I don't want to have a discussion with you and stuff, but knowing it will be in vain kinda bothers me. Like I'm not even sure how the devs are planning to implement these primordial fixes ^ before moving on to other stuff.
MQ Epic  Post #: 23
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